AMD Radeon 7000-Series 28nm (Southern Islands) | 7990 7970 7870 7770 | Discussion

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Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
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i am the only one more interested in the new aniso filter, than actual performance here?
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
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This card is a HORRIBLE value if priced at $549. And the only reason it's being priced like this is because NV has no product to counter it yet. Competition shouldn't be necessary to keep the price down.

I've been building PCs for 10 years+ and any videocard at $500+ has always been bad value, always. Whether it was 9800XT vs. 9800Pro, 6800 Ultra vs. 6800GT, X800XT vs. X800XL, X1950XTX vs. X1950XT, 8800GTX vs. 8800GTS (512), GTX480 vs. GTX470, GTX580 vs. GTX570. The same will be the case with HD7970 vs. HD7950 and GTX680 vs. GTX670, etc.

There has never been a time in PCs where it was better to buy a $500-600 videocard and keep it for 3-4 years as opposed to upgrading to 2x $300 cards every 2 years. The only way to get great value is to upgrade more frequently. So you sell your GTX480/580, w/e, and spend $100-200 more to upgrade so you are actually paying $200 to maintain your PC at top level every 12-15 months, etc. If you look at it that way, then it's not so bad.

If you want the best value, you never buy $500 videocards. In fact, right now the best value is HD6870, followed by HD6950 / GTX560 Ti. But remember, perceived value is a fuction of other factors too:

1) Individual income levels (i.e., making $60 a day vs. $1,000 a day, etc.)
2) Individual's own internal perception of value (is gaming their primary hobby, do they game 2-3 hours a week or 20-30 hours? or once a month?)
3) Marginal utility derived from a purchase can also be emotional (i.e., not just what you can measure in FPS count). What if buying a $500 videocard makes you feel better than spending $500 on a booth at a club, on a $220 bottle of Dom Perignon, on $2,500 Louis Vuitton purse for your wife, Bruno Magli shoes, etc. I mean we can write a 10,000 page essay here....value is subjective.

Based on these factors, what is expensive to you and I at $500 is reasonable to someone else.

Didn't you see GTX480 plummet to $275-300 shortly after GTX580 was released? If you want the fastest card, you always have to pay the highest price.

If you want to argue that HD7970 CF isn't worth spending $1100 from 2x GTX480s due to so many PC console ports, I'd probably agree with you. But I am not going to imply that this is the case for everyone because it's subjective. However, at $550, HD7970 is a way better deal than a $500 GTX580 since it'll be much faster than GTX580 in contrast to GTX580 vs. GTX570.

Also, based on the benchmarks, I am seeing a 40-50% increase over GTX580, not the 20-30% being thrown around.
 
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fourdegrees11

Senior member
Mar 9, 2009
441
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Single card is at a price premium for a reason. Sure you could spend $680 AR on quad fire 6870 2gb cards and claim the price/performance crown, but that brings a whole new set of problems to hash out for every part of your rig... AMD has every right to charge $550 for a 7970.


 

MaxPayne63

Senior member
Dec 19, 2011
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1) Individual income levels (i.e., making $60 a day vs. $1,000 a day, etc.)
2) Individual's own internal perception of value (is gaming their primary hobby, do they game 2-3 hours a week or 20-30 hours? or once a month?)
3) Marginal utility derived from a purchase can also be emotional (i.e., not just what you can measure in FPS count). What if buying a $500 videocard makes you feel better than spending $500 on a booth at a club, on a $220 bottle of Dom Perignon, on $2,500 Louis Vuitton purse for your wife, Bruno Magli shoes, etc. I mean we can write a 10,000 page essay here....value is subjective.

Based on these factors, what is expensive to you and I at $500 is reasonable to someone else.

This should be displayed in a popup whenever someone makes a post with words like 'gouging,' 'unfair,' 'milking,' etc., with regards to the price on a luxury item (such as a GPU) being too high. Along with a spreadsheet showing the inflation adjusted prices of similar (mid/low/enthusiast) parts over time.
 

NIGELG

Senior member
Nov 4, 2009
851
31
91
Apparently it's ok if Nvidia charges 500 Bucks for the fastest single card solution but if Ati does it there's a problem.7970 probably targets the kind of market like the 580 does.

Ati/AMD can charge 500 Bucks and let the market decide....
 

GotNoRice

Senior member
Aug 14, 2000
329
5
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Just asking, because I don't know, but isn't WoW more CPU bound? And has it been optimized for quad+ CPUs? Because I thought the lag in points wasn't bound to effects and such... but lots of moving pieces and the like.

Yeah WoW is extremely CPU bound. I upgraded from a Q9650 @ 4.4Ghz to a 2500K @ 5Ghz just for that reason. WoW doesn't use more than 2-3 CPU cores, so it's hard for me to do any better than a 2500K @ 5Ghz for this game, which is why I'm looking at a GPU upgrade now. How well WoW works with GCN is still a huge mystery at this point.
 

nsavop

Member
Aug 14, 2011
91
0
66
Amd would be doing a disservice to it share holders if it sold the 7970 for any less. And like Silverforce11 said the 7950 looks like a steal at $400-$450 especially if they unlock like the 6950's do.

Lets not forget Rory Reeds comments about being the aggressor/predator, amd's previous stratagy of bang for the buck was good for the consumer but didnt help there bottom line.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Also, based on the benchmarks, I am seeing a 40-50% increase over GTX580, not the 20-30% being thrown around.

On immature drivers for a totally different architecture, mighty impressive. Even if its 1600p, gtx580's 1.5gb vram is not a bottleneck in all those benches, outside of BF3 with 4xMSAA.

It's even more impressive considering its ~365-380mm2 and ~200W.

Looks like it will match GK104 with 768 CUDA cores (gtx580 +50%), especially if it arrives in Q2 2012, plenty of time for AMD drivers to be optimized for GCN. As to GK110 with the rumored 1024 CUDA cores, its also rumored to not appear in 2012 at all.

Edit: Pacman^ : Clear lead to 28nm and performance lead for 2 quarters, AMD failing? You must be dreaming.
 
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RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
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On immature drivers for a totally different architecture, mighty impressive. Even if its 1600p, gtx580's 1.5gb vram is not a bottleneck in all those benches, outside of BF3 with 4xMSAA.

I was saying the leaked benchmarks are 40-50% faster, not 20-30%. If the card is only 20-30% faster on average than GTX580, I won't be impressed. If it's 40-50% faster than GTX580, that's a different story.

Clear lead to 28nm and performance lead for 2 quarters, AMD failing? You must be dreaming.

I only said AMD's HD7970 is a fail in my eyes if it's only 20-30% faster than HD6970, as was initially reported by Fudzilla. Then the figure changed to 20-30% faster than GTX580, and then leaks are showing even better performance. Not sure how you extrapolated "AMD failing" as a company from this. ?
 

VulgarDisplay

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2009
6,193
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So many people are discounting this card for stupid reasons. Even if it's only 20-30% faster than a gtx580 you should all remember that the gtx580 has mature drivers because the fermi architecture has been around for a while now. GCN is brand new, and AMD is showing these numbers on release drivers for a brand new architecture. I can see those performance numbers climbing much higher 6mo-1year from now.

Also, why does everyone thinkg gk104 is coming out in q1-q2? Every rumor I've seen on it says q4, or later.
 

nsavop

Member
Aug 14, 2011
91
0
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So many people are discounting this card for stupid reasons. Even if it's only 20-30% faster than a gtx580 you should all remember that the gtx580 has mature drivers because the fermi architecture has been around for a while now. GCN is brand new, and AMD is showing these numbers on release drivers for a brand new architecture. I can see those performance numbers climbing much higher 6mo-1year from now.

Also, why does everyone thinkg gk104 is coming out in q1-q2? Every rumor I've seen on it says q4, or later.

Latest rumors for gk104 say q1, and q4 for gk100.
 

Mistwalker

Senior member
Feb 9, 2007
343
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This isn't what I'm contesting. I'm contesting value against AMD's own products, value of 7970 vs 6970, at 50% more performance = 50% more price. Do you want to know where we would end up like this?
Since when have cards been priced at a 1:1 price/performance scale? Especially when you're talking about the top performing card? In some ways this is actually a drastic improvement over the 570 and 580, which were nowhere near 1:1 then and aren't now.

This card is a HORRIBLE value if priced at $549.
When hasn't the highest performing card NOT been a horrible value? It's been this way for many, many years.

And the only reason it's being priced like this is because NV has no product to counter it yet.
You've got this completely wrong, it's priced like this precisely because there IS a competing, slower product...which is $500. What is AMD supposed to do with that? If the 580 GTX were down at $400-425 rather than on its "top single-card" inflated throne, THEN the $550 tag would seem a stretch.

Anyway, as Russian pointed out: top-end parts are never about value.

All I'm saying is that if something launches at a certain price premium, it will either drop, or we will pay through the nose going forward. Hence this card launched at $549 is bad value for us.
It's how things have always operated. $549 actually makes sense in the context of currently available products and their current prices. The 580 made less sense but still ended up being a very successful part, because the people buying these cards don't care about value as much as raw performance.


AMD's 2012 strategy......complete and utter failure for high end GPU's.
What does this even mean? Substance please.
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
30
91
It's priced like that because people will buy it at that price... I am willing to bet you that these things will be sold out and we will have to camp the interwebs to acquire 1.
 

Smartazz

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2005
6,128
0
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Apparently it's ok if Nvidia charges 500 Bucks for the fastest single card solution but if Ati does it there's a problem.7970 probably targets the kind of market like the 580 does.

Ati/AMD can charge 500 Bucks and let the market decide....

I think people are upset because Nvidia builds huge GPUs, whereas AMD has been going for the smaller GPU stratagegy, then take the performance crown with the dual-GPU part. Larger GPUs have lower yields and you produce less of them per wafer. With the exception of the 6970, AMD's pricing of their highest performing GPU has also crept up slowly since the 4870. $300 for the 4870, $400 for the 5870 when Fermi showed up late and now possibly $550 for the 7970. However, I remember a time when the top end GPUs were typically $600, though thankfully now midrange cards are pretty good. At one point, anything that wasn't on the higher end was crap, the Nvidia 8 series being the most recent example.
 

badb0y

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2010
4,015
30
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I think people are upset because Nvidia builds huge GPUs, whereas AMD has been going for the smaller GPU stratagegy, then take the performance crown with the dual-GPU part. Larger GPUs have lower yields and you produce less of them per wafer. With the exception of the 6970, AMD's pricing of their highest performing GPU has also crept up slowly since the 4870. $300 for the 4870, $400 for the 5870 when Fermi showed up late and now possibly $550 for the 7970. However, I remember a time when the top end GPUs were typically $600, though thankfully now midrange cards are pretty good. At one point, anything that wasn't on the higher end was crap, the Nvidia 8 series being the most recent example.
Post HD 2000 series ATi/AMD had to change their strategy so they wouldn't become irrelevant. They started to work their way up from the mainstream and now have the ability to command a price premium for their top end GPU.
 

Smartazz

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2005
6,128
0
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Post HD 2000 series ATi/AMD had to change their strategy so they wouldn't become irrelevant. They started to work their way up from the mainstream and now have the ability to command a price premium for their top end GPU.

Their GPUs have also become bigger, but still not like Nvidia's. I remember the 4870 being $300 and it beat the $450 GTX 260. The 5870 beat the 470 and was more money, but with the 6970 they charged more than Nvidia did for the GTX 570, yet it couldn't outperform it. It just seems bizarre that AMD priced the 4870 so cheaply back then. You're right though, the 7970 will probably sell really well, even at that price. However, I'm content with waiting for Kepler. I don't think we're going to see another 5870 scenario in which prices started to rise after launch unless Kepler is really late.
 
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Feb 19, 2009
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Not sure how you extrapolated "AMD failing" as a company from this. ?

It's a response to the post directly above mine from Pacman, who seems to be activating his troll mode, thinking AMD is set for fail since these cards so expensive. We've been trying to tell him this is quite the norm (with no success), premium part, premium pricing.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
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It's a response to the post directly above mine from Pacman, who seems to be activating his troll mode, thinking AMD is set for fail since these cards so expensive. We've been trying to tell him this is quite the norm (with no success), premium part, premium pricing.

And not just for GPU's...anything enthusiast/top-of-the-line has an added cost....I don't know anywhere that isn't the case.
 

Riek

Senior member
Dec 16, 2008
409
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Guys, you are all talking about the 7970 and its price comapred to the 580.... But don't forget that seeing the latest leaks the 7950 AND the 7870 will be faster or equal to the 580 (the fastest of the competition) also... In what price range should they fall? Are we really expecting 580like performance for <200$ as some apparently expect?

At this point AMD can sell the 7870 for the same price as the 6970 with increased performance and lower pwr consumption and already pressure Nvidia to lower their prices of the 560-570-580... Heck even the 7850 seems to be faster according to the leaks than the 570...
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
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Guys, you are all talking about the 7970 and its price comapred to the 580.... But don't forget that seeing the latest leaks the 7950 AND the 7870 will be faster or equal to the 580 (the fastest of the competition) also... In what price range should they fall? Are we really expecting 580like performance for <200$ as some apparently expect?

At this point AMD can sell the 7870 for the same price as the 6970 with increased performance and lower pwr consumption and already pressure Nvidia to lower their prices of the 560-570-580... Heck even the 7850 seems to be faster according to the leaks than the 570...

some belive value is a low price.
superb performance cost.
small die, cheaper but 7970 dosnt seem small die so then obviously cost goes up.
 

Pacman4

Senior member
Nov 7, 2011
251
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It's a response to the post directly above mine from Pacman, who seems to be activating his troll mode, thinking AMD is set for fail since these cards so expensive. We've been trying to tell him this is quite the norm (with no success), premium part, premium pricing.

I beg your pardon:whiste:....but I'm looking for a compelling reason to upgrade my PC for gaming, and it's looking like not only will AMD not be offering much power, but are going to charge an arm and leg, I guess the only saving grace could be extreme efficiency enabling the use of XF without the need for extreme cooling[expensive].

SB2500K/2600K, 8-16gig of BIG RAM is an excellent start to a gaming PC, all that's left is the GPU, but "if" a 7970 is approx 30% faster than a 580, then I've got CPU and RAM going to waste, not to mention that buying an expensive under performing GPU is a poor strategy in the first place.

A 6970 is barely 12-15% faster than a 5870 from 2 YEARS ago, and now they're going to introduce some sluggish expensive part that's maybe another 40-50% over that, not good enough, especially at $600aud+....FFS, I paid $160 for my 6850, so the 7970 might be twice as fast but cost 4x as much.

You really think that's something to be grateful for?....I'm looking at having to wait till this time next yr to get some proper value and component matching.
 
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