AMD Radeon 7000-Series 28nm (Southern Islands) | 7990 7970 7870 7770 | Discussion

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OVerLoRDI

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
5,494
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That was me and rightfully so because you guys are throwing personal attacks at him.

:thumbsup:

I was mostly agreeing with you stating that he is a valuable member of the community. He is a wealth of knowledge who often posts useful comments.

I appreciate his articles, and while I disagree with them from time to time, that doesn't make him bias. His articles offer way more games as benchmarks than any other site. Granted we could debate the validity of some of those tests as realistic benchmarks for modern flagship cards. (see RS's posts in regards to some of the older DX9 games) However, you definitely can't argue that this guy doesn't do his research. His testing method (every game under the sun) results in different conclusions than those of other review sites and [H] especially.

oh and
:whiste:
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
Some of his results are biased because he pretends that 25-35 fps at 2560x1600 4AA is playable in a first person shooter or a racing game. If one card is doing 32 fps and another 25 fps, you can say that card 1 is faster, but both are completely unplayable. So really the fact that 1 is faster is irrelevant since you'll need to back off your image quality or lower the resolution.

Yet, in [H]'s world, 25-35 is perfectly fine for gaming. I have 0 problems with 2560x1600 or 3x 1080P benchmarks at real world 50-60 fps. If one card gets 50-60 and another 30-40, yes there is a winner. But comparing 25 vs. 32 fps and declaring a winner is like comparing a turtle to a snail in a race.

[H] needs to be reminded that PC gamers who play FPS and racing games prefer gaming on the PC over consoles because we like 60 fps, not 30-35 fps in those genres. But when all of your benchmarks are running at 1920x1080 8AA or 2560x1600 4AA at 25-40 fps, what am I suppose to extra from that, that my card isn't fast enough at those settings? I already know that.

So his opinion is wrong and your is right? That's kind of what it boils down to.

I thought HardOCP's philosophy was to crank up the settings to as high as it can go before it becomes (subjectively) unplayable to the tester. I think 30fps is playable so long as the spikes don't fall below that too often, especially if VSync is on, as most people would probably then get a smooth 30fps with no jarring spikes up and down. Like you said, many console games get only 30fps and people keep buying those games anyway. So 30fps might be too low for you, but others deem it acceptable... barely. Which is the whole point behind HardOCP's testing philosophy. I don't think you speak for all PC gamers and that there is room for multiple opinions on the topic.
 

skipsneeky2

Diamond Member
May 21, 2011
5,035
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Charlie Demerjian is a Minnesota-based blogger and co-founder of semiaccurate.com -- a sort of rumors and speculations (soft news) site with some hard news mixed in. He broke some news about things like NVDA's bumpgate and NVDA's Fermi problems and seems to enjoy harassing NVDA on his site. (That's an understatement; he is fanatically anti-NVDA in his writings.) He does appear to have good sources, sometimes, but his track record is far from perfect. Rumor has it that ever since NVDA snubbed him for one of their events or launches or something, Charlie has had it in for NVDA. Charlie occasionally bashes other companies, though, including AMD after AMD fired a bunch of people.

More drama then one could handle a bit drastic too i am not one for rumors or speculations no wonder i never heard of this site.

Physical proof and good formal reviews make a good site why i love sites like anandtech toms hardware and bit tech.

If someone spends a life bashing tech companies why not make a better one if someone thinks they are so awful?
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
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More drama then one could handle a bit drastic too i am not one for rumors or speculations no wonder i never heard of this site.

Physical proof and good formal reviews make a good site why i love sites like anandtech toms hardware and bit tech.

If someone spends a life bashing tech companies why not make a better one if someone thinks they are so awful?

Yeah that site is like an echo chamber of AMD-philes.

I agree that it's better to stick with the relatively unbiased sites, the ones big enough to not fear companies shutting them out of the next launch, etc.

Same thing for everything else, not just computer hardware. Bikes, sporting goods, cameras, whatever. I recall that a poster on this forum talked about how the bike industry was like that... the smaller review sites were fearful that the bike companies would shut them out of future launches if the reviewers wrote bad reviews, so the reviewers were less likely to be overtly critical, or if they were, then they'd soften it up. Whereas the big review sites had reviewers who were more likely to be blunt and tell the unvarnished truth; they had credibility, traffic, and clout already, so they could afford to be more open.

Btw, I stepped into this thread late; I didn't realize people were calling apoppin biased. For what it's worth, I don't think he's been biased, or if he has been, then I don't think he's been intentionally biased. So don't mix me up with people who are calling him biased. I just laughed at his "very rarely" comment.
 

Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
903
76
91
Timely reviews are basically the lifeblood for most non-rumor hardware sites/blogs, so It's kinda understandable that apoppin would poke AMD's PR into sending him a card, though that "preview" came of kinda unprofessional. While apoppin does deserve some backlash, calling him a Nvidia shill is extremely overreacting.

If someone spends a life bashing tech companies why not make a better one if someone thinks they are so awful?

Thats a fallacy that should die out as soon as possible.
 

AnandThenMan

Diamond Member
Nov 11, 2004
3,949
504
126
Perhaps it is what i say about AMD's viral marketers infesting the forums that makes me unpopular. But they are not worthy of consideration as shills who hide their affiliation with the company who gives them hardware.
I'm struggling to think of a reason you would bring this up, I really am.
Charlie Demerjian is a Minnesota-based blogger and co-founder of semiaccurate.com -- a sort of rumors and speculations (soft news) site with some hard news mixed in. He broke some news about things like NVDA's bumpgate and NVDA's Fermi problems and seems to enjoy harassing NVDA on his site. (That's an understatement; he is fanatically anti-NVDA in his writings.) He does appear to have good sources, sometimes, but his track record is far from perfect. Rumor has it that ever since NVDA snubbed him for one of their events or launches or something, Charlie has had it in for NVDA. Charlie occasionally bashes other companies, though, including AMD after AMD fired a bunch of people.
I must commend you on this summation, it's pretty much bang on.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,726
1,342
136
I have a theory that the BIOS switch will boost clocks significantly. If I'm wrong and performance is as mediocre as it seems to be for a next generation part, I'm going to wait a bit longer to upgrade.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Nice looking card but seriously, price gouging is ridiculous.

Supplies not great, expect huge e/retail price gouge.
First of all, it looks like it is available and not a paperlaunch as my article predicted. Secondly, Yeston is a MANUFACTURER .. so the launch price may not be $550
:whiste:

I'm struggling to think of a reason you would bring this up, I really am.
I'm struggling to think of another reason people would post lies about me, I really am.

I have a theory that the BIOS switch will boost clocks significantly.
in excess of 1GHz
 
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skipsneeky2

Diamond Member
May 21, 2011
5,035
1
71
Nice looking card but seriously, price gouging is ridiculous.

Supplies not great, expect huge e/retail price gouge.

$679 are they out of their minds?

Card better have 6990 performance in a smaller power envelope.

I went into frys the week the gtx280 came out planning to buy a 8800ultra and i see the rumoured gtx280 sitting on the shelf for $650 which was cheaper then the ultra by $50.

I buy the card knowing this card is gonna spank the 8800ultra and i guess i bought it the day prior to release cause evga didn't even have it online yet on their homepage.

Less then 2 weeks later frys gave me back my $150 as retail dropped it to $499...hope thats the same for the 6970 as well if anyone is crazy enough to buy this card at that $679 price.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
I haven't seen any recent bench with that.. i always look at apples vs apples and the fps graphs.

So his opinion is wrong and your is right? That's kind of what it boils down to.

It's not that. He is inconsistent in his own testing. And because of that, I can never trust him on what's actually playable.

Notice this excellent BF3 Multiplayer review. A job well done. Minimums of 39-44 and avg. of 59 fps for HD6970/GTX580. So based on that, you presume that BF with 39 fps minimums and 59 fps average is smoooth.

Ok and then here, somehow playing single-player with 20 fps minimums and 40 fps average on an HD6970 is also smooth? I am not sure about you, but 20 fps minimum dips in a FPS game, single or multi-player is choppy to me. Ironically for HD6950 and GTX560 Ti, he considers mid-30s minimums and mid-50s avg as playable in the same review.

So it's all over the place. What am I supposed to consider playable 20 fps min and 40 fps averages OR 40 fps min and 60 fps average? Because there is no consistency in the same game, how do I know that when he cranks details higher on 1 card vs. the other, that 1 card is actually more "playable"? Therefore, in his concluding write-up for a specific game, when he says one game is more playble on 1 card or the other, I have no idea if it's actually true since they both can be totally unplayable for a 'normal gamer', but because his standards go as low as 20 fps but sometimes he considers 30 or even 40 fps to be playable in the same game, how am I supposed to trust that type of judgement?
 
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Ares1214

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
268
0
0
First of all, it looks like it is available and not a paperlaunch as my article predicted. Secondly, Yeston is a MANUFACTURER .. so the launch price may not be $550
:whiste:

It is either capable of selling at that price, so high performance, or it is being gouged insanely bad. Either or both scenarios is highly likely. Since when is a card not price gouged on release?
 

Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
903
76
91
First of all, it looks like it is available and not a paperlaunch as my article predicted. Secondly, Yeston is a MANUFACTURER .. so the launch price may not be $550
:whiste:

So that $679 is a MSRP? Hopefully the supply will be enough to ensure no additional mark up from the retailers...
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
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First of all, it looks like it is available and not a paperlaunch as my article predicted. Secondly, Yeston is a MANUFACTURER .. so the launch price may not be $550
:whiste:

So you say its NOT a paperlaunch now? What a quick turnaround. Should update your preview.

Charlie is adamant from his posts that AMD does not need/or planning a respin since they met their performance and yield targets already.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Notice this excellent BF3 Multiplayer review. A job well done. Minimums of 39-44 and avg. of 59 fps for HD6970/GTX580.

Ok and then here, somehow playing single-player with 20 fps minimums and 40 fps average on an HD6970 is smooth? That's hilarious!

I am not sure about you, but 20 fps minimums in a FPS game, single or multi-player is choppy to me.

1. SP, you dont need high fps. Average 40 fps is perfectly fine. Plus, its his "max playable" settings, if you want a traditional comparison, look at apples vs apples.
2. Look at his fps graph, the radeon spikes down only a brief moment. Otherwise its perfectly playable.
3. DICE patched their game recently to remove fps stutter, its a game bug.
4. Thats why I appreciate [H] reviews, his fps graph is very informative. ie. The BD review, in games its a stutter mess going from extreme high to low, but its average was fine. You WON'T see that in other benches with just a fps chart.
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
So you say its NOT a paperlaunch now? What a quick turnaround. Should update your preview.

Charlie is adamant from his posts that AMD does not need/or planning a respin since they met their performance and yield targets already.
i don't know. i don't know ANYTHING about Yeston or the PR i just now got. Who knows, maybe Yeston will send me a R7970-3072GD5 Deluxe.

And what i heard from formerly reliable sources, i printed. Pricing is never set until the last day or so and the card is priced much higher than $550 in Europe - so the US pricing could be off.

We'll all know in about 45 minutes. And i will leave the article up. Right or wrong; if i screwed up, it will be a long time before i do another 'preview' like this. But i am in good company of about 50 other fairly respected tech sites.
:whiste:

And it worked very very well for us. ABT traffic is way up. i believe most of the article is real. After i see the benches, i will know if there will be a quick respin - or not.
 
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blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
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I can see your point, but HardOCP has carved out a niche for itself via its subjective reviews. Like them or hate them, they are unique among the major review sites at playing through each game they test. You can go to any number of places for benches, but you go to HardOCP for subjective opinions.

Subjectivity is sometimes useful.

Example: Crysis. Whatever they did with that game (motion blur?), they made it "feel" smoother even at lower framerates. So you could say that the minimum playable framerate for that game was lower than for other games.

The problem is if they are internally inconsistent, but you can't know that based on just the numbers; you'd have to go into the reviewer's head.

A more trivial example is that low fps doesn't matter as much for games like, say, Civilizations.

Edit: someone else already addressed the SP vs MP aspect. You can sacrifice a bit of choppiness for SP, whereas you don't want to die from downward spikes in fps in MP.

It's not that. He is inconsistent in his own testing. And because of that, I can never trust him on what's actually playable.

Notice this excellent BF3 Multiplayer review. A job well done. Minimums of 39-44 and avg. of 59 fps for HD6970/GTX580. So based on that, you presume that BF with 39 fps minimums and 59 fps average is smoooth.

Ok and then here, somehow playing single-player with 20 fps minimums and 40 fps average on an HD6970 is also smooth? I am not sure about you, but 20 fps minimum dips in a FPS game, single or multi-player is choppy to me. Ironically for HD6950 and GTX560 Ti, he considers mid-30s minimums and mid-50s avg as playable in the same review.

So it's all over the place. What am I supposed to consider playable 20 fps min and 40 fps averages OR 40 fps min and 60 fps average? Because there is no consistency in the same game, how do I know that when he cranks details higher on 1 card vs. the other, that 1 card is actually more "playable"? For all I know, if he can't tell the difference between 20 fps min and 40 fps for playability, he could be looking at a choppy mess and still consider it playable....
 

Concillian

Diamond Member
May 26, 2004
3,751
8
81
Some of his results are biased because he pretends that 30-35 fps at 2560x1600 4AA is playable in a first person shooter or a racing game.

Minimums near 30-35 FPS are acceptable for most. I think it depends on the reason and the frequency. The averages are generally higher, sometimes much higher.

There is always commentary following the graphs that detail what is happening at low spikes which allow readers to make their own conclusions for their own intended usage

If, for example, a down spike is due to heavy action and someone expects to be in heavy action a lot, then they can figure on lowering video settings to be acceptable. On the other hand, if a down spike is due to some quirkyness following a level load, or something like that, then they note that and you can expect it to be the same at any setting.

They're about the only place I've seen that shows instantaneous FPS graphs so you can draw your own analysis. In their Skyrim charts, for example, you can look at GTX580 SLI scaling and see it's poor, but you also can note it's higher FPS than anything else in the article... then you can see areas in the instantaneous FPS charts where scaling is very near zero in some areas and +80% in others and conclude that they're definitely bumping against CPU limitations in some areas. So, if you spend the time, you can actually SEE the CPU limitations, which makes sense as the TES series have always been fairly CPU intensive with such large worlds.

Then you can look at these areas and focus in on the same area on OTHER charts to give you even more useful information, or read the comments on other cards to find out what parts of the games those CPU limitations are seen.

No other site gives the reader that kind of power. Min / Max / Average charts are near useless unless the minimums are put into context like [H] does.

You don't like his criteria for playable... that's fine, he gives you enough information that you can then take that information and shape it to your specifications for what playable is in a way that no other review site does. I find it difficult to believe that people would outright dislike the amount of information [H] gives to readers.

Have you ever FRAPSed your own play and noted areas where you notice performance degradation to learn how to define what playable means to you? When I did it, (years ago when I was playing shooter games more) I was surprised that there were some times when FPS dipped to 30-35 FPS I didn't notice, and other times when it was quite bothersome. Most of the time I didn't even notice. It was a surprise to me, because before I tested myself, I never would have thought a dip to 32 FPS would be tolerable based on the media and forum information I had been fed.

It was time consuming, but I learned a lot about my own perception and hardware requirements. This was way before [H] started doing things like they do now, and I really appreciated it when they started doing full instantaneous FPS graphs like I had been looking at during my own play at various video settings. It really gives a lot of info at a quick glimpse, and the comments following usually give further insight.
 
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HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,726
1,342
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in excess of 1GHz

Sweet, I guess then the three major questions would be:

-How much in excess?

-Has scaling been improved?

-Has every card been tested to run flawlessly at those settings? Or is it a bit of a crapshoot? (Seem to remember AWESUM working the later way, though I think the vast majority of cards were good at those settings...)
 
Feb 19, 2009
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