Question AMD Rembrandt/Zen 3+ APU Speculation and Discussion

[izaic3]

Alright, so we've had some leaks so far. I don't know if any of it's been confirmed yet, as it's pretty early, but here is what I've surmised so far (massive grain of salt of course):

• Zen 3 "enhanced"
• DDR5 and LPDDR5 support
• PCIE4
• 6nm
• CVML
• Navi 2/RDNA/RDNA 2
• 12 CU
• Socket FP7/AM5
• Possible USB4
• 2021(unlikely) -2022 (more likely) release date

If if turns out to have RDNA 2 and 12 CU, I could see iGPU performance potentially almost doubling over Cezanne.

If I've made any mistakes or gotten anything wrong, please let me know. I'd also love to hear more knowledgeable people weigh in on their expectations.

 

[Joe NYC]

Will Rembrandt use the same motherboard as the Ryzen?

No, Rembrandt will have new AM5 motherboards, when that socket version is released.

 

[Harry_Wild]

No, Rembrandt will have new AM5 motherboards, when that socket version is released.

Thanks!

 

[DrMrLordX]

Still Zen 3 for the most part. New stuff is DDR5, plus N6 will probably give an OK efficiency bump.

I had heard Zen3+ would bring with it +10% effective IPC and maybe higher clocks @ isopower?

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Still Zen 3 with only 16MB L3. Alder Lake will destroy it except in GPU.

IMHO this is going to be a close call. Sure, ADL will win everything concerning ST hands down.
But for MT: We are looking at 2+8 B.l vs. 8 medium cores. Also 12t vs. 16t. Under 15w PL this could go either way.

 

[uzzi38]

I had heard Zen3+ would bring with it +10% effective IPC and maybe higher clocks @ isopower?

The latter would come from the use of N6, as for the former, to be frank I can't say for certain. My expectation is that higher performance will come from higher clocks and the use of DDR5, outside of that I don't have any expectations. It would be very nice if AMD did do some core tweaks here to bring down cache latencies etc, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Spicy]

Yeah, I was never sure what the "+" in Zen3+ meant. µArchitecture optimization? Or only a die shrink with frequencies jump?
For Zen+ (Ryzen 2000X/3000G), it was only a die shrink, with minors bug fix (memory).
But at the same time, the leaks speak about "Zen3+" AND "6nm". Two different things?
Can't wait for the mystery to unfold.
There was a time, my personal prediction for Warhol (Zen3+) was that it was strictly the same CCD chiplet as Vermeer, but paired with a new IODie designed for AM5/DDR5. This would have provided a perfect DDR4->DDR5 transistion with two Zen3 CPU. We'll never know
The TSMC's 6nm seem to be compatible with its 7nm (same masks and libraries). So, no new design is imposed.

If you're really looking for a thin-and-light for light gaming, don't sleep on the 5700U. In a lot of games, the difference between the 5700u and the 5800u is nearly indistinguishable, and the 5700u is hundreds less in most situations.

Of course. 5700U is Lucienne (Zen2), 5800U is Cezanne (Zen3). IPC +15~20% and L3 x2.

IMHO this is going to be a close call. Sure, ADL will win everything concerning ST hands down.
But for MT: We are looking at 2+8 B.l vs. 8 medium cores. Also 12t vs. 16t. Under 15w PL this could go either way.

This config (2+8/12) is for extrem low power. Light low power will be 6+8/20. Not sure where the threshold of TDP will be. But the second one will destroy 8x Zen3(+).

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

This config is for extrem low power. Light low power will be 6+8/20. Not sure where the threshold of TDP will be. But the second one will destroy 8x Zen3(+).

6+8 is for 45w and above. Therefore AMD seems to be willing to employ Raphael based 16c/32t in late 2022. For bread and butter below 45w it is 2+8 against 8.

 

[insertcarehere]

6+8 is for 45w and above. Therefore AMD seems to be willing to employ Raphael based 16c/32t in late 2022. For bread and butter below 45w it is 2+8 against 8.

If the above leaked stack is any indication we'd be seeing 6+8 SKUs at the ~28w TDP range, i.e similar to where a 1185G7 would be now.

 

[Shivansps]

Im a gamer and i went a year with a 2200G igp only, its just a matter of perspective, a lot of people with high end gpus just cant understand how someone can play with just an apu. If i had to do it again, i could live with just a 5700G for sure.

Same for the notebooks, most people do casual gaming on notebooks, you dont really need a dGPU for that, you need something that can run games whiout having to go 720p all low. People who do any kind of serius gaming go for gaming notebooks but thats a small market.

Depends if it's for laptop or minipc (x000U/H) or for desktop (x000G)

Actually there is no diference there. Just look at the new M1s, even Apple went to 11 on iGPU side, and they dont even care about gaming.

The best example i can give you is that every Raven or Picasso that got sold was due to the IGP not the CPU, both on desktop and in notebooks, if you wanted a CPU with a igp for basic tasks you were better off by going Intel.
Cezanne did not changed this, even today you would be better off by going to a 11400 instead of a 5600G if you just want a CPU with a basic igp

I know the initial AMD apus were looking bad due to the CPU side, AMD needed to improve that in order to be competitive on notebooks(btw before Ryzen the CPU part was just killing igp perf on notebooks too), but that does not means that the CPU is the more important thing, its a balance, and RMB will bring that balance back.

 

[DisEnchantment]

The latter would come from the use of N6, as for the former, to be frank I can't say for certain. My expectation is that higher performance will come from higher clocks and the use of DDR5, outside of that I don't have any expectations. It would be very nice if AMD did do some core tweaks here to bring down cache latencies etc, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Rembrandt should be very interesting besides the core itself.

• New HSP
• New Q5 and C6 DSP Cores
• New Memory Controller
• New GFX
• New DCN
• New VCN
• New Power Management Framework
• New ISP
• Most likely New AOP taken from VGH --> this is new as suggested by @KOMACHI_ENSAKA is an A55 present in VGH. Very likely related to the new power management framework mentioned by Hallock
• Process Update

Update:
Struck off the items which are not confirmed

 

[Asterox]

Im a gamer and i went a year with a 2200G igp only, its just a matter of perspective, a lot of people with high end gpus just cant understand how someone can play with just an apu. If i had to do it again, i could live with just a 5700G for sure.

Same for the notebooks, most people do casual gaming on notebooks, you dont really need a dGPU for that, you need something that can run games whiout having to go 720p all low. People who do any kind of serius gaming go for gaming notebooks but thats a small market.



Actually there is no diference there. Just look at the new M1s, even Apple went to 11 on iGPU side, and they dont even care about gaming.

The best example i can give you is that every Raven or Picasso that got sold was due to the IGP not the CPU, both on desktop and in notebooks, if you wanted a CPU with a igp for basic tasks you were better off by going Intel.
Cezanne did not changed this, even today you would be better off by going to a 11400 instead of a 5600G if you just want a CPU with a basic igp

I know the initial AMD apus were looking bad due to the CPU side, AMD needed to improve that in order to be competitive on notebooks(btw before Ryzen the CPU part was just killing igp perf on notebooks too), but that does not means that the CPU is the more important thing, its a balance, and RMB will bring that balance back.

Today+crazy high discrete GPU prices, it is normal or expected to buy a "gaming AMD APU".

Just as an example(Germany, Mindfactory), two Cezanne APU-s 130 sold vs Alder Lake lineup 70 sold.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1457733646606077954

 

[eek2121]

I had heard Zen3+ would bring with it +10% effective IPC and maybe higher clocks @ isopower?

IIRC, AMD stated there would be no uplift.

If the above leaked stack is any indication we'd be seeing 6+8 SKUs at the ~28w TDP range, i.e similar to where a 1185G7 would be now.

Even the 2+8 is something for AMD to worry about.

Today+crazy high discrete GPU prices, it is normal or expected to buy a "gaming AMD APU".

Just as an example(Germany, Mindfactory), two Cezanne APU-s 130 sold vs Alder Lake lineup 70 sold.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1457733646606077954

What does this have to do with Rembrandt? ADL-S isn’t mobile. Apples to Green beans.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

If the above leaked stack is any indication we'd be seeing 6+8 SKUs at the ~28w TDP range, i.e similar to where a 1185G7 would be now.

Yeah, my bad. But still: 15w is not ULP - it is bread and butter for the mobile business.

 

[Spicy]

What does this have to do with Rembrandt? ADL-S isn’t mobile. Apples to Green beans.

Rembrandt is an APU, ADL-S too. Rembrandt should exist on mobile and desktop.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The latter would come from the use of N6, as for the former, to be frank I can't say for certain. My expectation is that higher performance will come from higher clocks and the use of DDR5, outside of that I don't have any expectations. It would be very nice if AMD did do some core tweaks here to bring down cache latencies etc, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Guess we will have to see the product in action and compare it to the 5xxx mobile chips.

Rembrandt is an APU, ADL-S too. Rembrandt should exist on mobile and desktop.

Rembrandt will be positioned against ADL-P most prominently.

 

[ahimsa42]

Im a gamer and i went a year with a 2200G igp only, its just a matter of perspective, a lot of people with high end gpus just cant understand how someone can play with just an apu. If i had to do it again, i could live with just a 5700G for sure.

Same for the notebooks, most people do casual gaming on notebooks, you dont really need a dGPU for that, you need something that can run games whiout having to go 720p all low. People who do any kind of serius gaming go for gaming notebooks but thats a small market.



Actually there is no diference there. Just look at the new M1s, even Apple went to 11 on iGPU side, and they dont even care about gaming.

The best example i can give you is that every Raven or Picasso that got sold was due to the IGP not the CPU, both on desktop and in notebooks, if you wanted a CPU with a igp for basic tasks you were better off by going Intel.
Cezanne did not changed this, even today you would be better off by going to a 11400 instead of a 5600G if you just want a CPU with a basic igp

I know the initial AMD apus were looking bad due to the CPU side, AMD needed to improve that in order to be competitive on notebooks(btw before Ryzen the CPU part was just killing igp perf on notebooks too), but that does not means that the CPU is the more important thing, its a balance, and RMB will bring that balance back.

my 4500U already does 90% of what i need a PC for and there are only a handful of games (like Diablo II Resurrected) that it will not run well at 1080p. i would never pay for a video card which alone costs more than my whole laptop just to play at a higher resolution at 80+ FPS. RMB will be a great, cost effective solution to the the insane graphics card prices for casual users & both light and medium gamers.

 

[Joe NYC]

Not exactly Rembrandt related but a comparison of Cezanne GPU vs. Alder Lake iGPUs, AMD has a large lead, 2:1 in some games.

Are there any guesses of Rembrandt vs. Cezanne performance?

 

[Kepler_L2]

Not exactly Rembrandt related but a comparison of Cezanne GPU vs. Alder Lake iGPUs, AMD has a large lead, 2:1 in some games.

Are there any guesses of Rembrandt vs. Cezanne performance?

With fast DDR5 it should be 2x Cezanne

 

[Spicy]

Not exactly Rembrandt related but a comparison of Cezanne GPU vs. Alder Lake iGPUs, AMD has a large lead, 2:1 in some games.

Are there any guesses of Rembrandt vs. Cezanne performance?

(not see the video) Is it Alder Lake-S? Only 32 EU.
Mobile ADL will come with 96EU. So, Cezanne will be beaten. Fortunately, they will release RMB at the same time.

 

[Joe NYC]

(not see the video) Is it Alder Lake-S? Only 32 EU.
Mobile ADL will come with 96EU. So, Cezanne will be beaten. Fortunately, they will release RMB at the same time.

Good point.

 

[yuri69]

I've been wondering about Zen 3 being used through whole two gens of APUs (Cezanne, Barcelo, and Rembrandt). AMD apparently got the resources for 2022/2023 products. They are enhancing the core line with Zen 4-derivative cores - Zen 4C and maybe even Zen 4D.

AMD didn't invest those resources in pushing the Zen 4 APU (Phoenix) forward but creating the derivatives and inserting Rembrand as a stopgap instead. Sure the APU will fare nicely in GPU tasks due not using 2017 tech. However, the CPU part will suffer greatly compared to ADL/RPL.

 

[moinmoin]

To satisfy the OEM demand the mainstream APU line is on a yearly cadence which likely ends up alternately upgrading the CPU and GPU portion each other gen. The cadence for cores and CUs is significantly above a year, so a 1 to 1 match isn't possible.

 

[uzzi38]

To be frank there were just more important improvements to be made.

CPU and GPU are not the only parts of an SoC.

 

[Spicy]

They follow their initial rodmap.
End of 2020: Zen 3: Vermeer (deskop), followed by Cezanne (mobile) some mounths later.
End of 2021/beginning of 2022: Zen 3+: Warhol, followed by Rembrandt some mounths later.
End of 2022: Zen4: Raphael (destop), followed by Phoenix (mobile) H1 2023.

With some variations: Warhol has been replaced by Vermeer-X/Zen3D, and Phoenix will be accompanied by Raphael-H, with 16 Zen 4 (or 16x Zen 4C ??? I still find it hard to imagine 7950X fit in a laptop APU).

All things come in their own time. Zen 4 is not ready for a launch at the next CES. And even less Zen 4C (undoubtly still in work/validation)

 

[jpiniero]

To be frank there were just more important improvements to be made.

CPU and GPU are not the only parts of an SoC.

Yeah but Intel is usually pretty good with "everything else".