Question AMD Rembrandt/Zen 3+ APU Speculation and Discussion

[izaic3]

Alright, so we've had some leaks so far. I don't know if any of it's been confirmed yet, as it's pretty early, but here is what I've surmised so far (massive grain of salt of course):

• Zen 3 "enhanced"
• DDR5 and LPDDR5 support
• PCIE4
• 6nm
• CVML
• Navi 2/RDNA/RDNA 2
• 12 CU
• Socket FP7/AM5
• Possible USB4
• 2021(unlikely) -2022 (more likely) release date

If if turns out to have RDNA 2 and 12 CU, I could see iGPU performance potentially almost doubling over Cezanne.

If I've made any mistakes or gotten anything wrong, please let me know. I'd also love to hear more knowledgeable people weigh in on their expectations.

 

[LightningZ71]

Will Rembrandt, while keeping the existing Zen3 cores, move to a 32MB L3 and keep the die size relatively the same by taking advantage of the increased density of N5? That reduced L3 of Cezanne is one of the main factors in it's performance hit compared to vermeere.

 

[jpiniero]

Will Rembrandt, while keeping the existing Zen3 cores, move to a 32MB L3 and keep the die size relatively the same by taking advantage of the increased density of N5? That reduced L3 of Cezanne is one of the main factors in it's performance hit compared to vermeere.

Rembrandt is N6. Phoenix maybe they will increase the L3.

 

[LightningZ71]

Got my products and process screwed up in my head. Thanks for the correction. Yeah, wit the larger iGPU, I can't imagine them increasing the L3 on N6.

 

[MalVeauX]

I was trying to find something that hinted the suggested or expected performance level of the upcoming Navi2 based APU's relative to a known GPU today, but didn't find anything useful. Anyone have a clue or can point me to the right place?

Very best,

 

[eek2121]

I've been wondering about Zen 3 being used through whole two gens of APUs (Cezanne, Barcelo, and Rembrandt). AMD apparently got the resources for 2022/2023 products. They are enhancing the core line with Zen 4-derivative cores - Zen 4C and maybe even Zen 4D.

AMD didn't invest those resources in pushing the Zen 4 APU (Phoenix) forward but creating the derivatives and inserting Rembrand as a stopgap instead. Sure the APU will fare nicely in GPU tasks due not using 2017 tech. However, the CPU part will suffer greatly compared to ADL/RPL.

AMD is likely doing this to improve capacity. Not have a bunch of mobile chips on N5 means they can push out more desktop/server parts.

A Raphael-H part has been shown in a couple leaks, so I imagine AMD is considering adding in a couple Zen 4 SKUs to keep performance leadership.

 

[movdx]

Let's hope that Rembrandt for laptops will be available in better supply than Cezanne and won't be more than Q1.

 

[jpiniero]

I was trying to find something that hinted the suggested or expected performance level of the upcoming Navi2 based APU's relative to a known GPU today, but didn't find anything useful. Anyone have a clue or can point me to the right place?

Very best,

With fast enough ram maybe 570.

 

[eek2121]

Let's hope that Rembrandt for laptops will be available in better supply than Cezanne and won't be more than Q1.

For laptops, initial ramps are usually slow due to volume orders.

That being said, AMD can push out far more Rembrandt chips in the same amount of time vs. Cezanne, so unless TSMC has shortages, supply should be much better. EUV ftw.

 

[MalVeauX]

With fast enough ram maybe 570.

Thanks; that's not bad at all. So 570 or 1050 basically. For integrated, that will work great I think with how things are going for people who don't want to build a $2k system to play some random games.

Very best,

 

[ahimsa42]

570/1050 would be amazing for an APU. kind of makes one wonder how much it would benefit from infinity cache? perhaps there is still a chance it will be implemented on RMB since it the lower model 6X00 GPU's were not supposed to have it but recent rumors suggest that they may:

AMD RDNA 2 Powered Radeon RX 6500 XT & RX 6400 Entry-Level Graphics Cards With 4 GB GDDR6 Memory Allegedly In The Works

AMD isn't finished with its RDNA 2 GPU lineup and is allegedly working on two new graphics cards, the Radeon RX 6500 XT & the RX 6400.

wccftech.com

 

[MalVeauX]

570/1050 would be amazing for an APU. kind of makes one wonder how much it would benefit from infinity cache? perhaps there is still a chance it will be implemented on RMB since it the lower model 6X00 GPU's were not supposed to have it but recent rumors suggest that they may:

AMD RDNA 2 Powered Radeon RX 6500 XT & RX 6400 Entry-Level Graphics Cards With 4 GB GDDR6 Memory Allegedly In The Works

AMD isn't finished with its RDNA 2 GPU lineup and is allegedly working on two new graphics cards, the Radeon RX 6500 XT & the RX 6400.

wccftech.com

I would be thrilled for APU performance at that level, by next year (not 5 years or 10 years from now obviously). I'm not a big gamer or anything, but it's nice to play some games that are modern, without the highest resolution and visual effects of course reserved for the monstrous GPUs with their impossible costs. The concept of the budget gaming PC died a few years ago. But if APU's could bring 1050/570 performance back for $250, that would enable the budget gaming PC again quite nicely and even more simple. Plus CPU's are useful even years later and can be used for lots of tasks, unlike ancient GPU's that become basically useless.

I have ordered a 5600G to hold me over a while. I refuse to buy a GPU at this point (I have a 1660 Super); but wanted another low end gaming capable solution to add to my workstation for coop games we sometimes play (nothing intensive) without spending $600+ for what's "low end" these days (3060 type stuff; far more than I need frankly, but I'm not paying $150~250 for truly lowest tier GPU stuff). So figured an APU for now will work since the reviews and benchmarks show it acceptable for my purpose and I will absolutely be able to take advantage of the CPU single thread performance that I use in my work applications. But, the idea of the next gen Navi2 APU being 570/1050 performance is great. I'm not waiting since it requires a total re-build (new socket, new mobo, new RAM, etc). If it were still AM4 and DDR4 I would wait. But it's a totally new everything so I will wait before going that way until I have to do a total system overhaul. I tend to use things to death.

Very best,

 

[ahimsa42]

I would be thrilled for APU performance at that level, by next year (not 5 years or 10 years from now obviously). I'm not a big gamer or anything, but it's nice to play some games that are modern, without the highest resolution and visual effects of course reserved for the monstrous GPUs with their impossible costs. The concept of the budget gaming PC died a few years ago. But if APU's could bring 1050/570 performance back for $250, that would enable the budget gaming PC again quite nicely and even more simple. Plus CPU's are useful even years later and can be used for lots of tasks, unlike ancient GPU's that become basically useless.

I have ordered a 5600G to hold me over a while. I refuse to buy a GPU at this point (I have a 1660 Super); but wanted another low end gaming capable solution to add to my workstation for coop games we sometimes play (nothing intensive) without spending $600+ for what's "low end" these days (3060 type stuff; far more than I need frankly, but I'm not paying $150~250 for truly lowest tier GPU stuff). So figured an APU for now will work since the reviews and benchmarks show it acceptable for my purpose and I will absolutely be able to take advantage of the CPU single thread performance that I use in my work applications. But, the idea of the next gen Navi2 APU being 570/1050 performance is great. I'm not waiting since it requires a total re-build (new socket, new mobo, new RAM, etc). If it were still AM4 and DDR4 I would wait. But it's a totally new everything so I will wait before going that way until I have to do a total system overhaul. I tend to use things to death.

Very best,

agreed. it could be a game changer for many people who don't need anything more powerful than this. i sold my custom made box with a 1050ti a year ago & have been making due with my 4500U laptop since then. the outrageous dgpu market does not seem like it will be going away anytime soon so looking forward to upgrading it to a 6800U which will provide at least 2x the performance.

i guess the big question for me is to jump on rembrandt or wait until early 2023 for the zen 4 phoenix? of course, zen 4 to zen 5 is supposed to be much more of a increase than 3 to 4 will be. i have tended to skip every other generation having owned a 2500U and then a 400U so will likely go with rembrandt in 2022 until zen 5 in 2024/25. the future is certainly very promising for those of who are light to medium gamers but don't want a hot, noisy, expensive dgpu.

 

[Thibsie]

For laptops, initial ramps are usually slow due to volume orders.

That being said, AMD can push out far more Rembrandt chips in the same amount of time vs. Cezanne, so unless TSMC has shortages, supply should be much better. EUV ftw.

Far more? Why 'cos 6nm ? I'd be surprised.

 

[MalVeauX]

agreed. it could be a game changer for many people who don't need anything more powerful than this. i sold my custom made box with a 1050ti a year ago & have been making due with my 4500U laptop since then. the outrageous dgpu market does not seem like it will be going away anytime soon so looking forward to upgrading it to a 6800U which will provide at least 2x the performance.

i guess the big question for me is to jump on rembrandt or wait until early 2023 for the zen 4 phoenix? of course, zen 4 to zen 5 is supposed to be much more of a increase than 3 to 4 will be. i have tended to skip every other generation having owned a 2500U and then a 400U so will likely go with rembrandt in 2022 until zen 5 in 2024/25. the future is certainly very promising for those of who are light to medium gamers but don't want a hot, noisy, expensive dgpu.

Yes, I think I will skip the initial AM5 release and see what things real world are by then. Also, relative to the GPU/CPU/Mining market smear. If CPUs don't get roped into this with its own niche of mining, then APU's will be pretty affordable still. There's no particular game release that I must play and cannot wait, so I'm fine just putt-putting along on a 5600G for the random games I might play. I would much rather wait a year or even on the 2nd year see what's going to happen with the later Navi2 APU's especially after release and maturity. Since building with one would be a new from scratch build (cannot use current AM4 motherboard, your current DDR4 Ram, etc), I'd rather wait on that stuff to also mature and not have the first gen AM5 boards that are hurried out.

Very best,

 

[Harry_Wild]

AMD has not release their high wattage, high core Ryzen 7, 9 APU yet! I am waiting for a 5950g myself and a 5900g! Or maybe a 6700g, 6500g on the low watts version of the 6000 series Zen 3 VD Cache! Any of these new CPU would be an instant buy if the still use the AM4 socket.

 

[MalVeauX]

AMD has not release their high wattage, high core Ryzen 7, 9 APU yet! I wait for a 5950g myself and a 5900g! Or a 6700g, 6500g on the low watts version of the 6000 series Zen 3 VD Cache!

True, but it's GPU is going to be Vega right? Not exciting for that caliber of CPU cost. I would think most people truly wanting that many cores and those frequencies would want the most for their socket, so would get an X version for the cost. Referring to the 5950 type stuff.

Very best,

 

[ahimsa42]

after rembrandt is released, if one is interested in gaming i don't think buying an igu with vega would be a wise move as zen 3d will only offer around a 10% increase in performance as opposed to 50-100% with AM5.

 

[LightningZ71]

I was trying to find something that hinted the suggested or expected performance level of the upcoming Navi2 based APU's relative to a known GPU today, but didn't find anything useful. Anyone have a clue or can point me to the right place?

Very best,

I'm a bit less optimistic. With DDR5 128 bit implementations, we can reasonably expect about 75-80% of the memory bandwidth ofthe RX560. Rumors for CU/wgp count suggest that it will have a FLOPS count in the ballpark of the rx560.

That suggests to me that we're looking at similar performance to the RX560X mobile GPU from four years ago, which was around the mobile 1050/ti in performance. That's not bad, and is good enough for decent 1080p gaming in mobile.

 

[MalVeauX]

I'm a bit less optimistic. With DDR5 128 bit implementations, we can reasonably expect about 75-80% of the memory bandwidth ofthe RX560. Rumors for CU/wgp count suggest that it will have a FLOPS count in the ballpark of the rx560.

That suggests to me that we're looking at similar performance to the RX560X mobile GPU from four years ago, which was around the mobile 1050/ti in performance. That's not bad, and is good enough for decent 1080p gaming in mobile.

That still sounds good for an APU in the $250 ballpark where you're getting a very competent CPU and a reasonable budget GPU built in. 1050/Ti performance in most titles at 1080p is great. Thanks!

Very best,

 

[Harry_Wild]

Many of us, that is myself are not hard gamers! I use my PC mostly for internet surfing, YouTube and receiving streaming content! But I do love instantaneous website loading and try to get the hardware to accomplish this as well as the fastest ISP in my area. I have download of 700 mb/second currently but when cost go down; I going to get a 2GB business internet line so I can watch 8K videos like they were 1080P!

 

[moinmoin]

Yeah but Intel is usually pretty good with "everything else".

You mean referring to the Atom line? Since Intel's other lines are not even SoC chips to begin with to not cannibalize the lucrative chipset business.

 

[Thibsie]

You mean referring to the Atom line? Since Intel's other lines are not even SoC chips to begin with to not cannibalize the lucrative chipset business.

Forgot about that.
No other CPUs from Intel can be considered as SOC?
This is quite good for AMD IMO

 

[jpiniero]

I'm a bit less optimistic. With DDR5 128 bit implementations, we can reasonably expect about 75-80% of the memory bandwidth ofthe RX560. Rumors for CU/wgp count suggest that it will have a FLOPS count in the ballpark of the rx560.

That suggests to me that we're looking at similar performance to the RX560X mobile GPU from four years ago, which was around the mobile 1050/ti in performance. That's not bad, and is good enough for decent 1080p gaming in mobile.

To be clear I am talking about the desktop version with $300+ (in mid 2022) DDR5. The main competition I would think would be buying cheaper ram and then a used 4 GB card.

 

[LightningZ71]

Even the desktop version will be bandwidth limited needs you are willing to shell our more than the cost of a low end video card for ultra high end ram that is then overclocked. The maximum spec for jedec ddr 5 has 128 bits giving just under 110GB/sec. It isn't expected that ram at that spec will be in any sort of mass production at reasonable prices for a year or more from now.

I expect most reasonably priced kits will be down in the 80+GB/sec range for the next year.

 

[ahimsa42]

there are certainly several big unknowns about rembrandt along with igpu performance- including price & availability both which will be major factors. because they are specifically for laptops hopefully neither of these will be too much of issue for the general consumer in 2022.