AMD Ryzen 2000 (12nm Zen+) expectations

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CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
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Agree with you on data movement but:

What exactly is IF to you? ALL data movement on the processor?

Power cost for data movement inter-die is much more than intra-die, so a 1.635W is a by far worse case.
You specifically said IF using 20-30% TP, not the normal flow of L2 and L1 caches to processing pipelines. This happens for all processors and is additional to using the IF, or are you saying that absolutely all data flows through the IF?
Moving data intra-die might not necessarily take less energy for multiple reasons. Whether it's higher bandwidth, having more stages for clockspeed sake, communicating between clock domains, and much more. The movement of data between two dies is relatively simple compared to what's happening inside the processor.

I consider anything that's not the CCX's to be IF. All the control logic, the data movement, memory control, all of it is handled by the IF. Moving information from L3 cache in one CCX to another is also handled by the IF, and the bandwidth between those two should be fairly high, though I don't remember bandwidth tests for this.
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
AMD's own terminology ties it to the effective MEMCLK (DDR), not the actual frequency.
Hence 1:2.

This is something I didn't know, I think most people think it's tied to transfer rate and not clock rate. Thanks for clarifying!
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
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Actually TR was planned to be released with a native 3200MHz support, but for other (chipset/mainboard/etc) reasons it was released with a slower native DDR4-2666, support, the same as EPYC

Citation needed.

As for the IPC, I was very precise in which cases I expect Zen+ CPUs to match or even surpass CFL, and it is in 4K gaming.

Then you don't understand what IPC is, it doesn't vary with display resolution.

AMD were the first to include IMC on their CPUs in 2003 with Athlon64/Opteron. 5 years latter, Intel followed that path.

Incorrect, Intel beat AMD by 13 years, the 386SL had an integrated memory controller in 1990. In non-x86, DEC, HP and SUN Microsystems all had shipping products with an IMC before AMD.
 
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mohit9206

Golden Member
Jul 2, 2013
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Zen+ isn't even worth talking about. Its going to be minor clock speed increase. Can't see how anyone can have any expectations from it.
Its just a Zen refresh just like RX500 series GPUs.
 
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ozzy702

Golden Member
Nov 1, 2011
1,151
530
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Zen+ isn't even worth talking about. Its going to be minor clock speed increase. Can't see how anyone can have any expectations from it.
Its just a Zen refresh just like RX500 series GPUs.

Exactly. Zen+ = more refined process for clock speeds and a few small tweaks. I don't see any excitement until Zen2 and we still have little to no concrete information on it.
 

CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
1,114
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This is something I didn't know, I think most people think it's tied to transfer rate and not clock rate. Thanks for clarifying!
It's tied to clock speed, just that the bus width is double allowing it to handle the bandwidth from dual channel memory.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
6,400
12,849
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Exactly. Zen+ = more refined process for clock speeds and a few small tweaks. I don't see any excitement until Zen2 and we still have little to no concrete information on it.
Actually Zen+ has the potential to fix the 2 worst offenders in Zen consumer performance - low clocks and mediocre IMC. Considering what I've seen in relation to gaming performance (Zen's weak spot), improving IMC performance would result in notable IPC increase exactly where it hurts the most.

The other reason I'm looking forward to the refresh is better motherboard quality - in my view mobo makers took a cautious approach for AM4 for some of the formats (mATX and mITX). I hope first gen sales will enable them to be more optimistic and build proper high-end boards in all formats.
 

ozzy702

Golden Member
Nov 1, 2011
1,151
530
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Actually Zen+ has the potential to fix the 2 worst offenders in Zen consumer performance - low clocks and mediocre IMC. Considering what I've seen in relation to gaming performance (Zen's weak spot), improving IMC performance would result in notable IPC increase exactly where it hurts the most.

The other reason I'm looking forward to the refresh is better motherboard quality - in my view mobo makers took a cautious approach for AM4 for some of the formats (mATX and mITX). I hope first gen sales will enable them to be more optimistic and build proper high-end boards in all formats.

I hope you're right but I think all the big improvements will be released with Zen2. Time will tell. I would have gone with a Ryzen CPU for my main rig if the clocks had been where I wanted them and the IMC wasn't meh. If they can get mem latency down in the 40s and even low 50s it will make a huge difference in games.
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,655
136
Moving data intra-die might not necessarily take less energy for multiple reasons. Whether it's higher bandwidth, having more stages for clockspeed sake, communicating between clock domains, and much more. The movement of data between two dies is relatively simple compared to what's happening inside the processor.

I consider anything that's not the CCX's to be IF. All the control logic, the data movement, memory control, all of it is handled by the IF. Moving information from L3 cache in one CCX to another is also handled by the IF, and the bandwidth between those two should be fairly high, though I don't remember bandwidth tests for this.
The cross CCX bandwidth was something like 23GB/s at DDR4 2400.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
4,093
1,475
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Actually Zen+ has the potential to fix the 2 worst offenders in Zen consumer performance - low clocks and mediocre IMC. Considering what I've seen in relation to gaming performance (Zen's weak spot), improving IMC performance would result in notable IPC increase exactly where it hurts the most.

The other reason I'm looking forward to the refresh is better motherboard quality - in my view mobo makers took a cautious approach for AM4 for some of the formats (mATX and mITX). I hope first gen sales will enable them to be more optimistic and build proper high-end boards in all formats.

Very well said. AMD took a conservative approach with first gen Zen sharing the same die for client and server and using 14LPP High density library (CPP=78nm , 9T). For Pinnacle Ridge AMD can go for the highest performance libraries which is Ultra High performance (CPP=84nm ,10.5T) . The choice of library determines Fmax. I am waiting to see if AMD has gone for max performance which I think they will with a client only die. The other main weakness on first gen Zen is memory latency and fabric speeds. I hope AMD will surprise us with the improvements in Pinnacle Ridge.
 

Spartak

Senior member
Jul 4, 2015
353
266
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Too much wishful thinking by OP. Zen+ will have 7-15% faster clock speeds, 0-5% IPC increase, absolutely no change to IF and slightly better memory support. That combo will be fabulous and an extremely competitive setup for AMD.

Zen2, sure, I can see some, maybe even all the speculation coming true but we're years out from that.


Pretty spot on. My guess would be ~3% IPC / ~12% clockspeed boost for Zen+ and ~10% IPC / ~12% clock speed boost for Zen2
 
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moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
4,994
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I hope you're right but I think all the big improvements will be released with Zen2. Time will tell. I would have gone with a Ryzen CPU for my main rig if the clocks had been where I wanted them and the IMC wasn't meh. If they can get mem latency down in the 40s and even low 50s it will make a huge difference in games.
Raven Ridge (which is still on 14LPP) already comes with a number of improvements that we should see as part of Zen+/12LP in general.
 
May 11, 2008
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Citation needed.



Then you don't understand what IPC is, it doesn't vary with display resolution.



Incorrect, Intel beat AMD by 13 years, the 386SL had an integrated memory controller in 1990. In non-x86, DEC, HP and SUN Microsystems all had shipping products with an IMC before AMD.

All older cpu's connected directly to sram or dram. And thus had a memory controller. Z80, 68000, 8080, 6800, 6502 etcetera.
 
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Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
All older cpu's connected directly to sram or dram. And thus had a memory controller. Z80, 68000, 8080, 6800, 6502 etcetera.

Actually they tied their data buss to the rest of the system. Memory controllers were entirely optional at the time.
 
May 11, 2008
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Actually they tied their data buss to the rest of the system. Memory controllers were entirely optional at the time.

Separate chips to connect to dram only happened with custom chips later on. I cannot remember any northbridge alike chips back then accept the agnus which was also the video controller.And the Atari ST chips.
Z80 had special registers and circuitry for dram cells. That sort of was a memory controller.
68000 i am not so sure that that chip could connect to dram, i think it was sram only. 68000 may have needed support chips, at least amiga had dram because of agnus.
All the other cpu could only handle sram for as far as i know.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
4,787
4,771
136
Pretty spot on. My guess would be ~3% IPC / ~12% clockspeed boost for Zen+ and ~10% IPC / ~12% clock speed boost for Zen2
Zen+ to Zen2 promises a huge clock speed advantage relative to the Zen to Zen+ iteration. AMD will probably use the frequency advantages of 7nm versus power savings as Zen2 can use existing 95W AM4 motherboards.
 

IRobot23

Senior member
Jul 3, 2017
601
183
76
Main problem is that ryzen doesn't "like" higher DRAM frequencies, even if pinnacle ridge fix that @ 3800-4000MT/s on avg, price is still big issue. Main target is 3000-3200MT/s.


Fabric speed should be 3:2 IMC speed or 2:1 (probably you couldn't reach higher DRAM frequencies).

DF 3 : 2 IMC would be ideal
- 3600 MT/s, 1800 MHz IMC, DF 2400 MHz (vs current 1800 MHz) - only extreme
- 3200 MT/s, 1600 MHz IMC, DF 2133 MHz (vs current 1600 MHz) - 144Hz gaming,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most of the users:
- 2933 MT/s, 1466 MHz IMC, DF 1955 MHz (vs current 1466 MHz)
- 2666 MT/s, 1333 MHz IMC, DF 1777 MHz (vs current 1333 MHz)
- 2400 MT/s, 1200 MHz IMC, DF 1600 MHz (vs current 1200 MHz)
- 2133 MT/s, 1067 MHz IMC, DF 1422 MHz (vs current 1067 MHz)

I assume that because of design that ratio (3:2) was not possible, tied to IMC. "They" say that DF could run above 2000MHz with ~1.2-1.25V. So I would assume that 3200 MT/s could be possible with 2133MHz DF. Either way all supported DRAM speeds 2666MT/s should have significant lower memory latency with decent CAS latencies.

Or maybe future BIOS will allow is to clock DF 3:2 IMC? yeah, dreaming. Maybe @
The Stilt could tell us.
 
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CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
1,114
1,153
136
Pretty spot on. My guess would be ~3% IPC / ~12% clockspeed boost for Zen+ and ~10% IPC / ~12% clock speed boost for Zen2
Zen 2 should bring a much larger IPC bump than Zen+.

Edit: misread, nvm
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
Separate chips to connect to dram only happened with custom chips later on. I cannot remember any northbridge alike chips back then accept the agnus which was also the video controller.And the Atari ST chips.
Z80 had special registers and circuitry for dram cells. That sort of was a memory controller.
68000 i am not so sure that that chip could connect to dram, i think it was sram only. 68000 may have needed support chips, at least amiga had dram because of agnus.
All the other cpu could only handle sram for as far as i know.

See page 100. http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Commodore/KIM-1 Hardware Manual.pdf
Everything was tied to the same buss, and a memory controller was optional.

Here's a block diagram.
http://www.weihenstephan.org/~michaste/pagetable/6502/6502.jpg
 

Bouowmx

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2016
1,142
550
146
Forgive my ignorance. Why can AMD Infinity Fabric and memory frequency not be decoupled? Alternatively, why can Intel ring and memory frequency be decoupled?
 
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Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,436
1,655
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Because AMD developed it as a multipoint connection between several layers including video cards and Graphical units. The attachment to ram speed and width are directly dependant on how it's implemented on Vega and Navi. People expecting this to be tweaked or outright changed are living in a dream world. Not saying they can't but it's not happening in Zen+ and probably not in Zen2. Really only once they have a new video arch to work with.
 
Aug 11, 2008
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If you analyse this slide, like Anand did, you will find out that Ryzen was designed from the begining to run high DRAM clocks. Actually TR was planned to be released with a native 3200MHz support, but for other (chipset/mainboard/etc) reasons it was released with a slower native DDR4-2666, support, the same as EPYC. And server CPUs always have lower core and DRAM clocks in order to improve their stability and longevity.

As for the IPC, I was very precise in which cases I expect Zen+ CPUs to match or even surpass CFL, and it is in 4K gaming. And here I'm not only considering the average FPS, but also the minimum FPS, since in average FPS current Zen CPUs are already performing better @4K than the same clocked and with the same number of cores/threads CFL/SKL-X based CPUs:

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i7_8700K/18.html

The 1600X with 3.6/4/4.1GHz Base/All core boost/XFR on all cores performs in average like a 8700K with 3.7GHz/4.4GHz/4.7GHz. Ryzen 1600x not clearly matches 8700K performance with 10-15% clock disadvantage, it also kicks the crap out of i7-7820X which has 33% more cores and higher 3.6/4.3/4.5GHz base/all core boost/single-core clocks.

As for the memory controllers performance and efficiency, AMD were never behind and most of the time were ahead of Intel. AMD were the first to include IMC on their CPUs in 2003 with Athlon64/Opteron. 5 years latter, Intel followed that path. I don't want to derail my post talking about GPU industry where AMD were always steps ahead of the competition and was the primary player in most of the memory types/standards used up to date (gDDR3, gDDR4, gDDR5, HBM, HBM2, HBM3, etc). They have UMA/NUMA for years, and they have EPYC offering significantly better RAM capacity and bandwidth then Intel's best.

There are several issues which are resulting in Ryzen's lower gaming performance at 1080p or below and almost all are related to IF latency and bandwidth. The total per-direction bandwidth which CCX can get over the DataFabric of InfinityFabric is limited to IF clock * 256bit and that is the same as the RAM data rate * 128bit * 2. So when one CCX needs to read data from another CCX and from main memory at the same time, huge DF bottleneck occurs since the read/write is happening effectively at half the possible transfer rates and latencies are dramatically increased as well. Games are type of software which is mostly non-parallel and involves a lot of RAM accessing. That's why we see such huge gains in Ryzen's gaming performance when increasing the IF clock. Doubling the IF clock in Zen+ will double the bandwidth and will halve the access latencies. This will significantly fix Ryzen's performance in all games-like applications and will have impact in other types of applications on the CPUs with a MCM design where the added latency due to MCM design hurts performance further. (https://www.servethehome.com/amd-epyc-infinity-fabric-latency-ddr4-2400-v-2666-a-snapshot/)

50% reduction in absolute latency is achieved by doubling the clock while maintaining the same relative latencies.

Now, why I'm expecting IF2 with double the clocks of IF1? It's because IF links are actually PCIe links and to move from PCIe 3.0 to PCIe 4.0, IF needs 2x clock speed. Now, we have information about ADM 400 chipsets arriving this spring at the same time with the new Zen+ 12nm CPUs. Also we have a lot of rumors about AMD starting to use PCIe 4.0 in 2018. We also have information that AMD will improve gaming performance with the next iteration of Ryzen. Putting all the pieces to the puzzle are revealing IF2 with DF2 using PCIe 4.0 links. Moving form PCIe 4.0 ti PCIe 3.0 is very easy since it involves little modifications of the PCIe 3.0 standard.
Wow, the 1600x "kicks the crap" out of the 7820x by a whopping 0.8%. Wonder what the error of measurement is? BTW, have you perhaps heard of the term "gpu limited"?
 

ozzy702

Golden Member
Nov 1, 2011
1,151
530
136
Wow, the 1600x "kicks the crap" out of the 7820x by a whopping 0.8%. Wonder what the error of measurement is? BTW, have you perhaps heard of the term "gpu limited"?

Yeah... OP's fanboism, unfounded speculation and cherry picking is readily evident. As soon as he started comparing the 1600X with the 8700k with a 100% GPU limited chart I tuned out.

That said, we should all be excited about AMD's CPU division and what they have accomplished and we should hope for continued advancement that keeps competition alive and well.

I expect a nice revision with Zen+. Not enough for people with current Ryzen offerings to jump to (unless they want more cores), but a nice offering for those needing new systems.

Zen2 on the other hand could be the first AMD system I use for my main gaming box in... well, forever.
 
Aug 11, 2008
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Yea, I dont really understand posts like that. They certainly dont convince me to buy AMD, but conversely turn me off to the product.
 
May 11, 2008
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See page 100. http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/pdf/Commodore/KIM-1 Hardware Manual.pdf
Everything was tied to the same buss, and a memory controller was optional.

Here's a block diagram.
http://www.weihenstephan.org/~michaste/pagetable/6502/6502.jpg

Well yes, to do the dram refresh, optional controller chips was often needed. Just as i had written.
Z80 was the only chip that had some dram refresh configuration / counters circuitry on board / on die at the time.
Hence the "onboard memory controller". It was all very limited of course.
 
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