AMD Ryzen 5 2400G and Ryzen 3 2200G APUs performance unveiled

[USER8000]

How would having less players lower the price?

Correct - if there are less players,it becomes a monopoly,and when there is a monopoly there is less pressure to be competitive for pricing.

 

[maddie]

I give up talking to you Samsung stock holder/flogger.

He's implying, without stating directly, that there will be only a little premium between HBM2 and normal Dram by next year. They will be close in price. In that case, it will be much cheaper to use HBM2 than quad-channel ram.

Remember, quad-channel needs 4 memory controllers on the APU die + increased motherboard complexity AND AM4 will not work, so a new socket needed.

 

[USER8000]

He's implying, without stating directly, that there will be only a little premium between HBM2 and normal Dram by next year. They will be close in price. In that case, it will be much cheaper to use HBM2 than quad-channel ram.

Remember, quad-channel needs 4 memory controllers on the APU die + increased motherboard complexity AND AM4 will not work, so a new socket needed.

We have already seen what happens with less and less DRAM makers - they are free to do what they want and dictate the pricing. This is why RAM pricing has gone up by a few 100 percent.

Samsung having a monopoly is terrible - they will determine the price they see fit.

This is why Chinese DRAM makers are so important and people on forums have to understand a simple fact - even with DDR4,most PC users are not using cutting edge RAM. It does not matter if they are behind,if they can cost them lower. How many people have 4600MHZ DDR4??

Tech forum regulars might find spending £400 on RAM for their £400 CPU normal,but the market is not made up of people like that.

All,this speed talk,is just companies like Samsung trying to push costs up as they can sell higher speed RAM for more money - they could instead focus on reducing costs for existing RAM. Chinese companies will probably concentrate on the volume market,just like their phone companies,who in most of the world have gone from nowhere to right up there with more established companies.

Look at the Japanese,like cars. They started small.

Oil?? Gas?? OPEC manipulated oil pricing and longterm it only caused their influence to go down. Russia,started using oil and gas as a weapon,and other countries like the US then looked at other means and other supplies to get their oil and gas.

Most of the market is cost sensitive,and OEMs will go with the cheapest solution. If Samsung and the incumbants,don't address dropping costs on mainstream RAM and NAND,more and more companies will buy it from the cheaper competitors. History has shown us this. Sure it might take years,but it will happen.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

So my question is are there any motherboards that come with a bios new enough to support these apu's? If i were to buy a normal B350 motherboard, will it at least post with these new apu's or do i need an older cpu to flash the bios first?

At least with ASUS boards featuring flashback, you can use it to install an appropriate BIOS. Even without a CPU in the socket.

Otherwise, an inexpensive A6-9500(e) will work for updating the BIOS.

That leaves triple and quad channel DDR4 as the only options left.

AMD already has a 4 channel DDR4 controller up and running (TR), but I doubt they'd do an APU with it for cost reasons.

 

[french toast]

It's proving exactly that,the things you are saying,because everyone was saying that 4/8 has to beat 4/4 hands down while the truth is that 4 additional threads can't even compensate for just 20% ( maximum) higher clocks.
Also the pic is from AC: Origins with the 4/8 ryzen running at ~100% so this game does not prefer 4 fast cores,since it can use up even 8 cores...at games that only use 4 threads the i5 would be much faster.

So? I3 8100 does not clock as high as 4.2ghz does it?, 8350k is more expensive.

 

[The Stilt]

Thank you! So technically, they should be the same - F22b is listed but the file is not there.

Yeah, the link for F22b seems to be down.
T20h is fine to use, for now.

 

[The Stilt]

@The Stilt just run a virtual drive on your ram,use 2 8gb modules and make a 8Gb drive,should be close enough to dual channel 4Gb.
Starwind ram disk is free and good.

There is no reason to believe that there would be any performance difference between the different amounts of available RAM, as long as the lower amount is still sufficient in the first place.
The frame buffer allocation is fixed, so the only thing that varies is the amount of RAM left for other tasks.

I can try it, but like I said I expect to see no difference what so ever.

 

[The Stilt]

AMD already has a 4 channel DDR4 controller up and running (TR), but I doubt they'd do an APU with it for cost reasons.

They don't.
Threadripper and EPYC are 2P / 4P on the same package, essentially.
Each of the ZP cores used in MCM configuration have 2x 64-bit (72-bit) controllers.

 

[The Stilt]

Roger,
finally I got 2400G alos. But my board is only C6H (where are the outputs) and next candidate is propably TUF B350M-Plus Gaming. What do you think about this board?

Do you want to write deep OC Guide how to tweak Raven Ridge? I like read your things man ,-)

The B350M-PLUS Gaming has 2 phase VDDCR_SoC VRM, which doesn't even have a heatsink on it.
I'd rather use either PRIME X370-PRO (doubled 2 phase VRM w/ heatsink) or MSI B350I PRO AC (2x 60A IR3555M w/ heatsink) for overclocking.

I haven't written a guide, but I can send you some general tips / basics with PM once I find the time.

 

[maddie]

We have already seen what happens with less and less DRAM makers - they are free to do what they want and dictate the pricing. This is why RAM pricing has gone up by a few 100 percent.

Samsung having a monopoly is terrible - they will determine the price they see fit.

This is why Chinese DRAM makers are so important and people on forums have to understand a simple fact - even with DDR4,most PC users are not using cutting edge RAM. It does not matter if they are behind,if they can cost them lower. How many people have 4600MHZ DDR4??

Tech forum regulars might find spending £400 on RAM for their £400 CPU normal,but the market is not made up of people like that.

All,this speed talk,is just companies like Samsung trying to push costs up as they can sell higher speed RAM for more money - they could instead focus on reducing costs for existing RAM. Chinese companies will probably concentrate on the volume market,just like their phone companies,who in most of the world have gone from nowhere to right up there with more established companies.

Look at the Japanese,like cars. They started small.

Oil?? Gas?? OPEC manipulated oil pricing and longterm it only caused their influence to go down. Russia,started using oil and gas as a weapon,and other countries like the US then looked at other means and other supplies to get their oil and gas.

Most of the market is cost sensitive,and OEMs will go with the cheapest solution. If Samsung and the incumbants,don't address dropping costs on mainstream RAM and NAND,more and more companies will buy it from the cheaper competitors. History has shown us this. Sure it might take years,but it will happen.

What are you going on about?

raghu78 was talking about relative prices WRT HBM2 vs normal Dram. The argument was about AMD using 4-channel Dram to alleviate the memory bottleneck. He claimed, and I agree, that HBM2 would be much cheaper by next year, and gave reasons as to why this would happen [samsung investment].

What does it have to do with absolute prices that you and a few are arguing? No one is saying that monopolies are good.

It is possible for relative prices between products to decrease while absolute prices can increase simultaneously.

 

[maddie]

At least with ASUS boards featuring flashback, you can use it to install an appropriate BIOS. Even without a CPU in the socket.

Otherwise, an inexpensive A6-9500(e) will work for updating the BIOS.



AMD already has a 4 channel DDR4 controller up and running (TR), but I doubt they'd do an APU with it for cost reasons.

To be precise, there is no 4 channel memory controller.

There are 2 single channel memory controllers/die. Threadripper has 2 die and gets 4 channels. Epyc has 4 die and gets 8 channels. The joys of IF and MCM.

 

[frozentundra123456]

10+ in stock for both at my local microcenter.

 

[TheELF]

So? I3 8100 does not clock as high as 4.2ghz does it?, 8350k is more expensive.

4c intel with 20% more clocks is 10% faster than a 4c/8t ryzen,which means that at the same clocks the 4/8 ryzen will only be 10% faster then a 4c intel,or a intel 4c with 10% higher clocks will have the same speed at games that can fully utilize a 8 threaded CPU,no matter if it's called a i5, i3 or maybe a celleron in a few years,10% is pretty slim and since there are still a lot of games out there that can't fully use 8 threads the difference will be even smaller,not to mention games that only have a few threads...

 

[CHADBOGA]

Totally unrelated but this is a blast from the past, back in the day when Toms Forums were active and people actually cared to go there. I just remembered the avatar

A few unkind people hope that is actually me, as my avatar.

 

[maddie]

A few unkind people hope that is actually me, as my avatar.

Hiding in plain sight, I see.

 

[Kenmitch]

10+ in stock for both at my local microcenter.

When I checked mine yesterday in the AM they both showed as 10+ in stock.....Today the 2400G is sold out and the 2200G is still showing 10+ in stock. Not really sure what the total count was but it looks like the 2400G has more demand.

 

[realibrad]

What are you going on about?

raghu78 was talking about relative prices WRT HBM2 vs normal Dram. The argument was about AMD using 4-channel Dram to alleviate the memory bottleneck. He claimed, and I agree, that HBM2 would be much cheaper by next year, and gave reasons as to why this would happen [samsung investment].

What does it have to do with absolute prices that you and a few are arguing? No one is saying that monopolies are good.

It is possible for relative prices between products to decrease while absolute prices can increase simultaneously.

Actually monopolies can be good. Standard Oil was likely a net benefit to the US. It drove down prices and created many new markets.

 

[maddie]

Actually monopolies can be good. Standard Oil was likely a net benefit to the US. It drove down prices and created many new markets.

That's the damned thing with the real world. We only get one chance to make it right. No What-If trial attempts.

Maybe the whole "this universe is a VR sim" idea comes from that human frustration.

 

[neblogai]

Actually monopolies can be good. Standard Oil was likely a net benefit to the US. It drove down prices and created many new markets.

It was good, because it put safe kerosene as standard- and safety helped to popularize the use of it. But RAM industry has fine standards already.

When I checked mine yesterday in the AM they both showed as 10+ in stock.....Today the 2400G is sold out and the 2200G is still showing 10+ in stock. Not really sure what the total count was but it looks like the 2400G has more demand.

Here, in Lithuania, there are also no 2400G in stock, while 2200G is still available. And on Amazon.uk- it shows just 4 2400G in stock- should sell out soon, with 2200G still in ample supply. I find it interesting- 2200G is a way better deal Maybe budget gamers are still researching compatibility situation- while builders of HTPCs and SFFs are getting them for secondary PCs already because they have means to flash compatible bios?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

They don't.
Threadripper and EPYC are 2P / 4P on the same package, essentially.
Each of the ZP cores used in MCM configuration have 2x 64-bit (72-bit) controllers.

To be precise, there is no 4 channel memory controller.

There are 2 single channel memory controllers/die. Threadripper has 2 die and gets 4 channels. Epyc has 4 die and gets 8 channels. The joys of IF and MCM.

Sorry, that was poorly worded. AMD has a 4 channel design up and running. You're both right of course.

 

[Eug]

What about 4K Netflix? I know the hardware in 2200g should support it, but what about real world time frame?

 

[neblogai]

What about 4K Netflix? I know the hardware in 2200g should support it, but what about real world time frame?

There is interesting (and optimistic) development in this field. I believe this is what is needed for 4K Netflix to work:

>Please note that HDCP 1.4/2.2 are supported for the purposes of streaming 4K+HDR content. AMD intends to have a production PlayReady 3-capable graphics driver in early Q2.
(link)

And the other very interesting/good news is- some Raven Ridge users are finding that with 2400G/2200G processors their motherboard HDMI 1.4 port turns into 2.0 (4K 60Hz 4:4:4)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7xd636/raven_ridge_hdmi_20_test_request/

 

[CatMerc]

You are wrong, i had several ram sticks failing from use for no aparent reason, there is probably some external factor involved here, but they can fail for other reason than physical abuse.

There can always be defects that manifest over time, and the IC's themselves aren't the only possible point of failure.

When I say immortal I mean the read write cycles of the cells. DRAM is essentially immortal in that sense. It would take unreasonably long time to really wear it out.

 

[LightningZ71]

My expectation for the Chinese DRAM manufacturers is that they will optimize at first for the commodity DRAM market, focusing for the slower grades of DDR-4 in smaller DRAM sizes. I'd expect 4 and 8GB sticks from them at first that are modestly specced (think moderate to high CL 2400 and below). Given the volume in that section of the market, even modest markups from Samsung and Hynix will be under a lot of pressure quite quickly.

Samsung and Hynix know this quite well. They aren't stupid. They are aggressively building out capacity on the high end stuff HBM2, DDR6, high spec DDR4 in an attempt to stay relevant and profitable against very low cost products from China that are expected on the market soon. The profit taking on the top end right now is funding that expansion. Given how far behind Samsung Hynix is right now, I fully expect them to financially fail under the brunt of the Chinese products in the market and to eventually be purchased by those same Chinese firms.

the next few years in the industry are actually quite clear. Samsung will be blazing a trail at the top end of the market in a fight to keep that segment of their business alive. Hynix will fall. The Chinese firms will gobble up the makers that fail to get additional technology and IP for western sales and continue to make volume in the low and mid markets. We NEED Samsung to survive to keep the Chinese companies from gaining a monopoly on the market themselves. We NEED the Chinese firms to put pressure on Samsung both by volume and technology development to keep prices in the middle of the market manageable.

The end game is unfortunately already written. Eventually, Samsung will hit an expensive technology roadblock, somewhere around 7-3nm, and will go broke trying to get past it. The chinese firms will eventually catch up to them, break them financially, and buy what's left once it gets spun off. This won't just happen in the DRAM market either. They are making a lot of headway in the CPU/APU market with the VIA/Centaur team. Yes, it isn't competitive TODAY with even mainstream Intel/AMd products, but, in a few years, it will be. In 5 years time, they will have most of Asia covered in inexpensive, competitive, mid-market products that will guy a lot of Intel and AMD's volume product market. Without that volume, they will have a hard time funding the rest of their development projects. AMD may be in a better position without the pressure to keep their foundries in business. But, in a decade, I don't see anyone still in the market except for Chinese companies.

 

[Eug]

There is interesting (and optimistic) development in this field. I believe this is what is needed for 4K Netflix to work:

>Please note that HDCP 1.4/2.2 are supported for the purposes of streaming 4K+HDR content. AMD intends to have a production PlayReady 3-capable graphics driver in early Q2.
(link)

And the other very interesting/good news is- some Raven Ridge users are finding that with 2400G/2200G processors their motherboard HDMI 1.4 port turns into 2.0 (4K 60Hz 4:4:4)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/7xd636/raven_ridge_hdmi_20_test_request/

Ah, perfect. Finally 4K Netflix, and with full 2200g support by mid-year this year. A slim build 2200g would fit the bill.

I don't really need faster speeds. But then again, I'd consider getting a faster APU just for future proofing. I note that 2200g achieves 580 for Cinebench R15. that's only about 35% faster than my current Phenom circa 2010.