AMD Ryzen (Summit Ridge) Benchmarks Thread (use new thread)

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cdimauro

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Sep 14, 2016
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Absolutely with ...

So... I beg to disagree.

Then I better specified what's the states of the server market for big companies which make use of Intel's Xeons.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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Absolutely with ...

So... I beg to disagree.

Then I better specified what's the states of the server market for big companies which make use of Intel's Xeons.
Wisest thing you can do in your life is to make your mind after something happens, not speak your mind, before it happens.

Lets just observe and enjoy what is happening in the market. AMD might have a really competitive hardware.
 

cdimauro

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I just said that is not easy to switch CPU vendors, and I put a know reason for it.

What else can I do to be more clear about it?!?
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
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Regarding your question on switching to technology - it happens all the time, each time new project is conceived/launched (which is many times a day) enterprise architecture (and various related units) reviews and validates the technology choices and how they go along with general technology direction within enterprise. Oracle , SQL Server, MongoDB, etc - what data layer will be used, will it require physical servers (major no-no as software that requires avoidance of virtual platforms needs an override from God/very senior leadership to proceed forward), is it written or bought with technology for which company has skillset, etc. For hardware, there is general desire to stay with at least two but not more than four key vendors (two to ensure no single vendor has us by the balls come contract renewal/renegotiation time),not more than four as to ensure we have sufficient scale in purchases and support is not too fractured.

Beyond it, each major group picks their own compute units, runs it, internally 'certifies' it and then those are the building blocks for whatever infrastructure (virtual private clouds, hosts of DB clusters which are completely different animal) group needs to use. If it hits in the budget and comes from major approved vendor (HP, Cisco, Dell, IBM, etc), no one would bat an eye on whether processor is AMD or Intel or whatever. Does the group says it works for them ('certification') ? does it fit in the budget? ok, lets try it

and since infrastructure is essentially in four year refresh cycle, 20% or more of servers get rebuilt and retired yearly. add to this lifecycle management for other components (OS, RDBMS, etc) and infrastructure groups are always busy, always have money allocated, and willing to try these.

few $0.02 from the enterprise side...
 
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cdimauro

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No. Have you read it, or should I post just the quote from the specific part which I reported before?
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
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No. Have you read it, or should I post just the quote from the specific part which I reported before?
I skimmed it.. it's very high level written for a crowd who aren't familiar with the technology. I don't see any mention of custom instructions.
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
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I am not sure we disagree - we may be just talking about different things. I do not know how difficult or easy for say HP to 'switch CPUs' (or what that actually means since they make so many different lines of servers for various business market segments).

from the users of the companies like HP or Dell, i.e. in financial services - the needs are much more in ensuring that our vendors (HP, Dell, etc) support and guarantee the hardware, and that products we use (i.e. database software) works with that hardware. How easy/difficult was it for Dell to build their server is not our concern and it should not be , that is why we are paying them (a lot of money). if they want to use ADM, good. if they don't, good. not our choice, not our concern.

So actual industry users of servers rarely care about technological feats or other fluffy stuff - it is much more on whether numbers work and if there is value in this or not. And the whole job of the vendor management office (responsible for hundreds of millions of purchase budget yearly) is to minimize vendor lock in and manage risk. The moment we hear 'this only works on X', there are rules and processes that make it a required operation to prepare and execute plans to send such lock in packing. This applies to services as well ( particularly to services).
 

cdimauro

Member
Sep 14, 2016
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So, here is it that hot part:

Another way to make a chip faster is to add special circuits that only do one thing, but do it extremely quickly. Roughly 25 percent of the E5’s circuits are specialized for, among other tasks, compressing video and encrypting data. There are other special circuits on the E5, but Intel can’t talk about those because they’re created for its largest customers, the so-called Super 7: Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Baidu, Alibaba, and Tencent. Those companies buy—and often assemble for themselves—Xeon-powered servers by the hundreds of thousands. If you buy an off-the-shelf Xeon server from Dell or HP, the Xeon inside will contain technology that’s off-limits to you. “We’ll integrate [a cloud customer’s] unique feature into the product, as long as it doesn’t make the die so much bigger that it becomes a cost burden for everyone else,” says Bryant. “When we ship it to Customer A, he’ll see it. Customer B has no idea that feature is there.”
 

TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
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Beyond it, each major group picks their own compute units, runs it, internally 'certifies' it and then those are the building blocks for whatever infrastructure (virtual private clouds, hosts of DB clusters which are completely different animal) group needs to use. If it hits in the budget and comes from major approved vendor (HP, Cisco, Dell, IBM, etc), no one would bat an eye on whether processor is AMD or Intel or whatever. Does the group says it works for them ('certification') ? does it fit in the budget? ok, lets try it
This does make sense but also raises the obvious question...how long will it take for those companies to make sure ZEN is good enough for them to trust them in such products?
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
1,014
391
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So, here is it that hot part:

Another way to make a chip faster is to add special circuits that only do one thing, but do it extremely quickly. Roughly 25 percent of the E5’s circuits are specialized for, among other tasks, compressing video and encrypting data. There are other special circuits on the E5, but Intel can’t talk about those because they’re created for its largest customers, the so-called Super 7: Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Baidu, Alibaba, and Tencent. Those companies buy—and often assemble for themselves—Xeon-powered servers by the hundreds of thousands. If you buy an off-the-shelf Xeon server from Dell or HP, the Xeon inside will contain technology that’s off-limits to you. “We’ll integrate [a cloud customer’s] unique feature into the product, as long as it doesn’t make the die so much bigger that it becomes a cost burden for everyone else,” says Bryant. “When we ship it to Customer A, he’ll see it. Customer B has no idea that feature is there.”
Things like AES acceleration is not unique to Intel.. a lot of vendors do that. I use it in my code, and as I said I work in the industry. I can't think of a single feature Intel provides that AMD doesn't provide either that would prevent us from switching. We don't deal with video compression, although I thought places like Youtube use a custom ASIC solution for this anyways.

I was looking for a specific example.
 

cdimauro

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Sep 14, 2016
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The reported part was NOT talking about AES acceleration, which is common and a standard part of x86's ISA. Same think for video compression.

The specific part was talking about OTHER, HIDDEN, chip features which are enabled ONLY for SPECIFIC customers.
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
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The reported part was NOT talking about AES acceleration, which is common and a standard part of x86's ISA. Same think for video compression.

The specific part was talking about OTHER, HIDDEN, chip features which are enabled ONLY for SPECIFIC customers.
It's kind of hard implementing hidden instructions used by say Amazon or Google without modifying the Linux kernel and dev toolchain for them. And then not disclose it due to GPL. I don't discount that they are there, but if they are not in the Linux source.. then they won't keep people from switching to Zen.
 

cdimauro

Member
Sep 14, 2016
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Well, it's very well known that at least Google has a proper, own Linux fork, which is internally maintained. Microsoft... is A BIT closed source.

The same thing can happen with other big vendors which have proper, internal infrastructures, which run their customized software.

The software can be even GPL, but if it's not distributed, the company cannot be forced to release its changes. Fortunately...
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
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Well, it's very well known that at least Google has a proper, own Linux fork, which is internally maintained. Microsoft... is A BIT closed source.

The same thing can happen with other big vendors which have proper, internal infrastructures, which run their customized software.

The software can be even GPL, but if it's not distributed, the company cannot be forced to release its changes. Fortunately...
I am fully aware.. but this also means they are abandoning the continuing work and improvements done by the Linux community at large. And as someone who works in this field and who hangs out at dev conferences with those folks, I can tell you they frown on this idea.

No one wants to sit there and back port changes into a private fork, we all have more important problems to solve than to protect Intel's monopoly.
 

cdimauro

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Sep 14, 2016
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No, they handled themselves merging the selected patches that they want to be applied to their customized software.

It's a pain in the ass, but such big companies have resources to do it.
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
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Absolutely... no. It's known that Intel has developed custom extensions to its CPUs for specific (BIG) partners, which are enabled only for such partners.

So, it's not as easy as it can be to switch to another CPU vendor.

Erm, AMD has been touting this market for... well... nearly a decade.

Recall Torrenza?

Its also well publicised that they have looked at integrating FPGAs onto Zen by 3D stacking with HBM.


Now - my point is not that either of these are viable technologies based on the evidence publically available - but rather that AMD are well aware of the advantage of customised extensions and given that they are the smaller manufacturer desperate for sales, they are likely to be much more compliant with big companies' desires than Intel.
 

cdimauro

Member
Sep 14, 2016
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I never stated the contrary. I've just reported the current situation, and that it's not that simple to switch CPU vendor.

BTW, Intel bought Altera, and has started shipping Xeons with integrated FPGAs...
 

Atari2600

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2016
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I never stated the contrary. I've just reported the current situation, and that it's not that simple to switch CPU vendor.

True... to an extent.

AMD: "what would you like to see in our next uarch?"

Customer: "well, we've a few custom instructions we'd need to see, Instruct A does blah, Instruct B does blah blah and Instruct C does blah blah blah"

As long as AMD initiated the discussion long enough ago (probably when Dirk was in charge, too late to affect BD, but early enough for Zen) then they'll have them baked in.


BTW, Intel bought Altera, and has started shipping Xeons with integrated FPGAs...

Well, they'd demo'd them ages ago, so no surprise they are shipping them.
 

cdimauro

Member
Sep 14, 2016
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Right, a vendor can ask for some instructions, and AMD can provide them. But this requires time.

A cannot disclose information about similar scenarios, for obvious reasons, but this process (going from the customer request to the final availability) might require yearS. And I'm not joking: there's a capital S at the end...
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
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Absolutely. If Zen can have competitive perf/watt some will switch. Why do people use Juniper when there is Cisco? There are always reasons. Besides AMD used to be a player in this field. Sun Microsystems invested in Opteron x86_64 in quite a big way back in the day.

I can tell you that some folks are just tired of having only one vendor. They want AMD if for anything but to be able to pit them against Intel and negotiate. Negotiations can then take any number of directions.

This is a big market too.. with fat margins. AMD doesn't need much of it to really boost their revenues.

Very few companies buy direct from AMD or Intel. If an enterprise wants multiple sources they use HP and Dell. AMD isn't considered a "source".
 
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