AMD Zen “RYZEN” CPUs Detailed – 8 Cores, 3.4Ghz+ & Auto Overclocking With “XFR”

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Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,761
4,666
136
I seriously suggest, Krumme, to wait for ultimate benchmarks from reviews to draw conclusions about Zen, and most importantly on pricing. We have a lot to believe that Zen is a killer, and also a lot to believe it can be a massive let down(if the pricing is not in place).

I was hoping that if Zen is on Haswell level AMD can price it at a fraction of cost of current Intel hardware. Right now, I am not sure it can happen. Of course, there is nothing that will suggest AMD will offer dual core chips, and mainstream lineup will look like this: 4 core, 6 cores, and 8 cores. And that may be true. But the most important thing for it is the pricing.
If it will look like this: 199$ 4 core, 299$ 6 core, 399$ standard 8 core model, with 499$ highest end desktop model - AMD killed Intel offerings. If it will be higher than this for every bracket - meh, the excitement will go away, immediately.

But yes, everything points to a situation where we have again competition.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,516
13,090
136
...
I dont see the point of using ignorance as an argument, AMD gave a lot of infos and we are talking about thoses infos while you are saying that it s bs and that we should use non sense as basis for the discussion, that is dubbious theories, that are contradicted by AMD s own statements..

Besides if thoses 40% hold that invalidate completely his "theory" of possibly 100% SMT scaling, that would make 2.8x an XV core throughput, so you re using an agument that is a demonstration that you are not even undestanding your own words, but i guess that it s not about being accurate..

1. I reject anything AMD has said about their own product. I dont care if it turns out to be true to the actual clock cycle at the end of the day. Either we have actual data or we dont. Information from AMDs marketing department is not valid data IMO and noone will convince me otherwise.

2. Yes, at 40% you would actualize a specific range in the theorized sample space that is different from 100% SMT scaling.

Lets no engage this further, I wont.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,516
13,090
136
You do realize you're contradicting with me by saying the exact same thing, right?
That list was the basis of my last argument: all bets are off, from now on it's leaks & benches that matter.

- Sorry, must have read it backwards. Ignore please.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
I seriously suggest, Krumme, to wait for ultimate benchmarks from reviews to draw conclusions about Zen, and most importantly on pricing. We have a lot to believe that Zen is a killer, and also a lot to believe it can be a massive let down(if the pricing is not in place).

I was hoping that if Zen is on Haswell level AMD can price it at a fraction of cost of current Intel hardware. Right now, I am not sure it can happen. Of course, there is nothing that will suggest AMD will offer dual core chips, and mainstream lineup will look like this: 4 core, 6 cores, and 8 cores. And that may be true. But the most important thing for it is the pricing.
If it will look like this: 199$ 4 core, 299$ 6 core, 399$ standard 8 core model, with 499$ highest end desktop model - AMD killed Intel offerings. If it will be higher than this for every bracket - meh, the excitement will go away, immediately.

But yes, everything points to a situation where we have again competition.
I was expecting like 2.6 base 3.2 turbo at aprox hsw bwe ipc levels. So i am pretty certain i am personally not to be disapointed. As for the pricing i just hope server doenst take it all. At the end of the day i dont care if i have a Intel or Amd system so as long as compettition is back at desktop all is fine for me.

If a zen can match a bwe in blender and handbrake even tuned to their behavior - compettition is what we have. To what degree needs to be seen but its way over what i expected. It is nitpicking is context. We will get far more for our savings. The last 25 years only points that way.

Eg. K6=celleron 300a and so on
 
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simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
But the most important thing for it is the pricing.

Exactly - show us the entire ecosystem please ( MB+ CPU+ RAM) and show value.

What is somewhat annoying in these discussions are people who argue who frequently want to substitute arguments and argue something completely different from desktop/computer CPU conversation, i.e. standard BS with refrain "therefore AMD Zen is irrelevant'

BS like 'it is all in absolute performance, and therefore AMD Zen is irrelevant' - no it is not and never was unless you had unlimited money for your home hardware. Servers are different market altogether and things that matter for servers are simply out of any sane pricing for home system. And if you have unlimited money of your own, why are you here?

BS like 'we had 8 core systems forever - no we didn't and still don't at any form of pricing <$500. paying $1000 for CPU and then many hundreds for motherboard is complete different value offering (or lack thereof) and again, if you are willing to pay it, why are you here trashing Zen in its price range, go buy your toys and pay for R&D for the rest of us (and Intel stock dividends for our 401ks)

BS like 'but you can buy 32 cores now for $500 if only you ..' - if only you find that particular kind of server trash less trashy with SB, if only you pair it with right type of engineering sample of 6 year old CPU of 5 generations ago, if only you find the right memory for that natex recycled junk, if only you buy refurbished PSU, if only .... list is long. yes, you can build a 32 core machine that doubles as a space heater for your basement and eats power as multiple refrigerators, when you are done hopefully under $1k (which is dirt cheap for that amount of compute, for a reason), without warranty, with enormous power deficiency and significant personal time investment. so what? how is it at all relevant to circa 2016-2017 technology and NEW systems like Zen?


So to me AMD pricing matters more than fantasies of absolute performance or something mythical like if I mix vacuum and nitrogen and shine cosmic radiation on it coupled with unicorn dust, how much can I push the overclock.

AMD has to show its hand, and show complete ecosystem (AM4, CPU, etc) if they want to be relevant. 40% up/down/sideways from unknown level with unknown assumptions, are not relevant..
 
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KTE

Senior member
May 26, 2016
478
130
76
Abwx: Leave me out of your theories.

I didn't claim anything you prescribe.


AMD is saying above 40% IPC.

My personal opinion now is that its true.

But it's also obvious that those PR benchmarks are hand-picked for a reason.

Sent from HTC 10
(Opinions are own)
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
AMD is saying above 40% IPC.

My personal opinion now is that its true.

Personally I still rate past experience as a good indicator. We all know what happened last time so lets look at the sort of stuff written at about the same time about Bulldozer: http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/rumour-bulldozer-50-faster-than-core-i7-and-phenom-ii.2134911/
Amusingly we have a number of the same posters saying exactly the same sorts of things with the same fervour.

Anyway then it was 50% faster at this point pre-release, which ties in nicely with the latest "AMD is saying above 40% IPC." this time around.

It would be great if we could trust what AMD are saying, but lets be honest they have earned a reputation for talking out of their bottoms, so I'd reign in my expectations a bit and wait for the independent reviews before getting too carried away.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Personally I still rate past experience as a good indicator. We all know what happened last time so lets look at the sort of stuff written at about the same time about Bulldozer: http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/rumour-bulldozer-50-faster-than-core-i7-and-phenom-ii.2134911/
Amusingly we have a number of the same posters saying exactly the same sorts of things with the same fervour.

Anyway then it was 50% faster at this point pre-release, which ties in nicely with the latest "AMD is saying above 40% IPC." this time around.

It would be great if we could trust what AMD are saying, but lets be honest they have earned a reputation for talking out of their bottoms, so I'd reign in my expectations a bit and wait for the independent reviews before getting too carried away.

Sure, but you also have to realize that the significant people at AMD now are completely different people from those that were releasing BD. It's a completely new personality and new engineering. The only thing that is the same, really, is the name.
 
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KTE

Senior member
May 26, 2016
478
130
76
Personally I still rate past experience as a good indicator. We all know what happened last time so lets look at the sort of stuff written at about the same time about Bulldozer: http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/rumour-bulldozer-50-faster-than-core-i7-and-phenom-ii.2134911/
Amusingly we have a number of the same posters saying exactly the same sorts of things with the same fervour.

Anyway then it was 50% faster at this point pre-release, which ties in nicely with the latest "AMD is saying above 40% IPC." this time around.

It would be great if we could trust what AMD are saying, but lets be honest they have earned a reputation for talking out of their bottoms, so I'd reign in my expectations a bit and wait for the independent reviews before getting too carried away.
I agree with you, hence my initial skepticism.

All of us have previously been burned before. Some of you might remember me from Barcelona days on XS.


We will see it all very soon.

I just find it very difficult to see AMDs CEO lying about the 40% IPC at this level, on that stage, very explicitly, in clear, unambiguous words. She said they've exceeded it.

Had she claimed they match BD-E IPC, I definitely wouldn't have took her word for it.

But looking at the cache/predictor/resource overhaul + SMT, >40% is certainly possible.

Some AMD workers I know have said the same to me personally, which probably gives me that extra leap of faith I shouldn't have.

Sent from HTC 10
(Opinions are own)
 

flopper

Senior member
Dec 16, 2005
739
19
76
I agree with you, hence my initial skepticism.

All of us have previously been burned before. Some of you might remember me from Barcelona days on XS.


We will see it all very soon.

I just find it very difficult to see AMDs CEO lying about the 40% IPC at this level, on that stage, very explicitly, in clear, unambiguous words. She said they've exceeded it.

Had she claimed they match BD-E IPC, I definitely wouldn't have took her word for it.

But looking at the cache/predictor/resource overhaul + SMT, >40% is certainly possible.

Some AMD workers I know have said the same to me personally, which probably gives me that extra leap of faith I shouldn't have.

Sent from HTC 10
(Opinions are own)

Lisa su behavior was stable in her presentation, she was confident, calm for her and as to the point one can be, RyZen is gold for them.
 
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Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,522
751
126
So that's why all the comparisons to BW-E then? Because Ryzen is not HEDT?

If Ryzen is not HEDT, then it's the biggest CPU smash hit of all time, and I can't wait to see the HEDT version.

Its being compared to broadwell E because that is the only platform in which intel offers 6+core CPU's, intel keeps the 4core+ CPU's locked out of mainstream users. So they are just comparing to the only equivalent core count intel CPU available.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126
Its being compared to broadwell E because that is the only platform in which intel offers 6+core CPU's, intel keeps the 4core+ CPU's locked out of mainstream users. So they are just comparing to the only equivalent core count intel CPU available.

Okay, but that doesn't make any sense to me.

Where will it fall in the price bracketing? Is the HEDT comparison indicative of pricing? Or is Intel desktop pricing the ballpark?

What is it's intended competition?

It only supports 64gb of ram, whereas Intel HEDT supports 128gb. Will that make a difference to previous purchasers of Intel HEDT systems?

I intend to build a Zen system anyway, if only to scratch the itch.

I just hope the chips are actually available in quantity in 1Q17.
 

unseenmorbidity

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2016
1,395
967
96
So that's why all the comparisons to BW-E then? Because Ryzen is not HEDT?

If Ryzen is not HEDT, then it's the biggest CPU smash hit of all time, and I can't wait to see the HEDT version.

Because they are showing they can compete with intel's "best". They are also focusing multithreaded benchmarks, as their boost speeds/tech isn't complete, and it wouldn't be fair to run such tests with an 8 core vs a 4 core.

They might offer like one super binned black edition at like $500-$600, but other than that, I believe they will be solely targeted at the mainstream.

It's always good marketing sense to have a really expensive product to make your high and midrange products look more enticing.
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
1,014
391
136
Okay, but that doesn't make any sense to me.

Where will it fall in the price bracketing? Is the HEDT comparison indicative of pricing? Or is Intel desktop pricing the ballpark?

What is it's intended competition?

It only supports 64gb of ram, whereas Intel HEDT supports 128gb. Will that make a difference to previous purchasers of Intel HEDT systems?

I intend to build a Zen system anyway, if only to scratch the itch.

I just hope the chips are actually available in quantity in 1Q17.
I don't think the comparison to HEDT is indicative of pricing at all. I think Ryzen will be quite disruptive. I want to build a Ryzen box so bad as well. In fact I just got the case and PSU for it all ready. If anything for curiously sake, I need cores. I also think if it really ends up being competitive as it's looking, there will be quite a high demand for it. There is quite a big group of folks who have been waiting on Zen for a long time (current FX and Phenom users, as well as people who jumped on Sandy Bridge after BD flopped). Might be months before they are consistently in stock.

This reminds me of the 5870 launch, yet the anticipation is way higher. I just hope we get decent motherboards right off the bat. I remember being the early adopter of the Opteron 144 (first Athlon64) and my motherboard was a mess. And it wasn't cheap either.
 
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Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,730
554
136
citavia.blog.de
Let's start the slide show..

We all know that no workload is parallel only they always have at least a small amount of serial code to keep an eye out over all the other threads and to sort all the data that is shared to the threads and comes back from them.
The more threads there are the more work this one serial/sequential thread has to do the less efficient HT/SMT becomes.
Amdahl's law is a different story. It partly fits this discussion about MT renderers, but not the other use cases like different processes running on the same processor. That's what I did with Prime95 and my machine learning code. BTW, those curves still don't match reality for Blender, Cinebench, and other renderers, as raytracing is easy to parallelize (just split the image into small, cache friendly subsections).

I had the same discussion with Francois Piednoel. How about this example with 97-99% parallel code of total code executed:

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/hpc/Hyper-Threading-may-be-Killing-your-Parallel-Performance-578/
They also have some (old) Opteron numbers, and show some Linux vs. Windows scheduler differences:
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/hpc/POV-ray-on-Quad-Xeon-and-Opteron-579/

Nobody is arguing that HT slows down the execution of a non HT thread...

Think of it in simple terms if 100% is one core/thread on hass/broadwell and in some program (blender for example) you get 100% + 30% from HT then one core basically runs at 130% of the speed it's capable of(related to this program) .

Now if one core/thread on ZEN is only 65% of one hass/broadwell core but their SMT implementation runs a second thread on the same core at another 65% it adds up to the same 130%
There is no distinction between "non HT threads" and "HT threads". There are either one or two threads running on a core with Hyperthreading. With equal priority on Intel systems. Even Power has some prioritization. How Zen will do that needs to be seen.

So if adding another thread (e.g. of Blender) on HSW/BDW, you actually see the original thread running (when measuring it's individual throughput) at ~65% in your example, and the second, too. Nothing stays at 100%, which is important to note. So you should better write 100% becomes 65%+65% (or slightly different mixes). That 65%+65% for Zen suggests a 100% SMT scaling...

Here is the performance of Prime95 in my experiment, when throwing in some low priority code:


So the question is if zen actually has the same IPC as has/broadwell or if it is well below but with much better throughput.
Look at the presentation again 25% of the 40% uplift is the new technologies they introduced, smart prefetch and neural whatever_it_is, so they outright telling us that IPC as we discuss it(hard cruel real world IPC) is only 30% over excavator, 40% if you count everything.
With one thread/core at 30-40% over excavator you can't reach broadwell levels,no where near actually,but with two threads/core it adds up to 60-70% IPC gain which would more or less be on the level of IPC improvement people are dreaming of in this (and all other) thread(s).
So it all comes down to what form of SMT they use partitioned as in the textbook passage(close to 100% SMT scaling) I showed or unpartitioned like HTT where ever thread just grabs what it can ( ~30% in most bench cases but also close to 100% in most games that scale well with cores hence why the i3 is still good for games) .

And yes since lucy lu said that they put senseMI towards IPC they are not talking about the same IPC we are talking about.
Nobody cares that the skylake i3 has way better min fps in bf1 then the haswell i3 after adjusting for clock speeds all people care about is the benches showing only ~5% IPC improvements between haswell and skylake.
I wouldn't be that harsh. Improving branch prediction and prefetchers are typical ways to improve IPC. There is no IPC with some hypothetical branch predictor performance. You can't remove that effect. So we and them are talking about the same IPC. But there might be new components, we don't know yet. For example, they might include some application specific uarch/MPU tuning. If it increases instructions executed per clock, then it is a valid IPC contributor, just not a "classic" one.

For example, AMD touted 20% reduced mispredicted branches for SR:
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
1,014
391
136
Personally I still rate past experience as a good indicator. We all know what happened last time so lets look at the sort of stuff written at about the same time about Bulldozer: http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/rumour-bulldozer-50-faster-than-core-i7-and-phenom-ii.2134911/
Amusingly we have a number of the same posters saying exactly the same sorts of things with the same fervour.

Anyway then it was 50% faster at this point pre-release, which ties in nicely with the latest "AMD is saying above 40% IPC." this time around.

It would be great if we could trust what AMD are saying, but lets be honest they have earned a reputation for talking out of their bottoms, so I'd reign in my expectations a bit and wait for the independent reviews before getting too carried away.
Actually if you read that thread you'll notice that a lot of the discussion revolved over multi threaded benchmarks and people comparing CMT vs SMT. IPC was not discussed much because AMD hadn't said anything about IPC pre-bulldozer. People assumed 10-20% IPC gains. Yes they were wrong, but it was hard to guess Bulldozer was going to have worse IPC than Phenom II. Personally I was shocked about that on the launch day. But JF posts on HardOCP had made me suspicious even before the launch due to something he said but I can't remember what exactly now, I just remember being concerned about single threaded performance. AMD was really tight lipped about IPC.

Where Zen launch is different from Bulldozer launch:

- No one really expects Zen to beat Intel outright in single thread performance, but most everyone is optimistic it will come close, and perhaps even overtake Intel in certain disciplines. Personally I have maintained cautious optimism about it, but Haswell level ST perf. would be satisfactory to me.

- We know more about Zen today than we did about Bulldozer before launch. We know base clocks, we've seen power consumption, we've heard the HotChips architecture overview..

- We aren't going by marketing slides. AMD hasn't showed us a lot but they did show us 2-3 mainstream open source CPU intensive applications, and I am pretty sure everyone here thinks the results look promising.

- We are also seeing comparisons between apples and apples. The thing with Bulldozer this whole gimmick that you got "honest to goodness" real cores for free. You get 8 cores for the price of four. This is not the case with Ryzen. They are pitting 8 AMD cores vs 8 Intel cores. Apples to Apples, nothing is getting lost in translation.

There are still unknowns, like what will the dreaded single threaded perf. look like? If we assume AMD SMT scaling is similar or worse than Intel's it could be pretty darn good. If SMT somehow shares more resources than on the Intel side it could be worse. Or if branch predictor is bad. By how much we don't know, but as I said it looks promising.

Problem with Bulldozer was the following:

- Single thread perf. straight up sucked, couldn't even match Thuban, which was a regression, first time ever for AMD. (actually not different from Pentium III vs Pentium 4).

- The chips was a monster. 1.2B transistors (at first we thought it was 2B, but 1.2B was still more than double of that of Sandy Bridge 504M). Inefficient, expensive for not much benefit.

- It had poor perf/watt. Bulldozer basically had no redeeming quality. At least we know Ryzen can render or transcode stuff by being more power efficient.

So far we're pretty confident Ryzen isn't a Bulldozer. It could still completely suck at single thread performance, but I think they are being genuine about the 40% or greater IPC uplift (Lisa Su seems alright), and we know clocks aren't horrible either (3.4Ghz base is pretty solid for an 8 core part, while maintaining the power consumption lead in those tests).

I give Ryzen 80/20 chance of success at this point.
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
I'd give it 50/50 for my own needs, I just don't have enough information yet.

Price is a big question for me. At $330 I'd probably trade a slightly lower per-core speed for double the cores over a 6700K / 7700K. At $500, I'd get the 6700/7700 instead since my main CPU-heavy use is gaming not encoding.

I also still do care about power heat and noise at stock, since I want my gaming PC to have a fast but quiet CPU using just air cooling. If the promised power control works well that's a big plus. If it's another power hog for gaming loads then no thanks.
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
1,014
391
136
Now if one core/thread on ZEN is only 65% of one hass/broadwell core but their SMT implementation runs a second thread on the same core at another 65% it adds up to the same 130%

So the question is if zen actually has the same IPC as has/broadwell or if it is well below but with much better throughput.
Look at the presentation again 25% of the 40% uplift is the new technologies they introduced, smart prefetch and neural whatever_it_is, so they outright telling us that IPC as we discuss it(hard cruel real world IPC) is only 30% over excavator, 40% if you count everything.
I find it a bit funny that in the same post, you are both hypothesizing 50:50 SMT scaling and criticising AMD's statement that the branch predictor is responsible for a lot of the gain. Those are direct contradictions.

Isn't a bad branch prediction exactly the reason why you might get 50:50 SMT scaling? The whole point of SMT is if you don't have an instruction decoded and ready to go, you let the other virtual core (thread) run, while the first thread's instructions get fetched. So how could AMD have 50:50 scaling and have also put too much effort into improving the branch predictor?

If you could feed the 1st thread 100% of time your 2nd thread would never get any work done. Which is what often happens. But if you can feed your 1st thread 100% of time, that also means your branch predictor is also pretty good, or you're running some highly repetitive/cached code.
 
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deasd

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
553
867
136
Go back and read the stuff page 1-3 from sweepr zen bm thread. Like

"Does the Jim Keller pixie dust come with any sort of a guarantee?"

I think that was spot on back then. Now the answer is just:
Yes.
Lol.
It simply looks like pixie dust to me. Perhaps i have even gone a bit religious.
Nice to see most having a good time enjoying it. Its what enthusiasm is.

I just go over the forepart of that zen bm thread after reading your post, that some posters were speaking sarcastically against AMD and Zen, now most of them turn silenced after Ryzen showcase.
 

unseenmorbidity

Golden Member
Nov 27, 2016
1,395
967
96
I just go over the forepart of that zen bm thread after reading your post, that some posters were speaking sarcastically against AMD and Zen, now most of them turn silenced after Ryzen showcase.

It seems a lot more civil now that the anti-AMD trolls are less active. Where did they go?
 
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TimCh

Member
Apr 7, 2012
55
52
91
We all know that no workload is parallel only they always have at least a small amount of serial code to keep an eye out over all the other threads and to sort all the data that is shared to the threads and comes back from them.
The more threads there are the more work this one serial/sequential thread has to do the less efficient HT/SMT becomes.




Nobody is arguing that HT slows down the execution of a non HT thread...

It is quite clear that you have no idea how HT works, there are no HT threads and non-HT threads. The first thread is in fact slowed down when the second thread is added on Intel CPUs.

Sendt fra min SM-G928F med Tapatalk
 
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