AMD's heat problem really hurts

[Bluga]

Our school is about to purchase 200 computers, have a look at the quote:

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The ECE department would like to install new computer systems in two of the
undergraduate labs. The total number of lab computer systems would be 200.
The department may upgrade the admin staff computers (~50) in the summer.

The chassis system provides power and cooling which is vital to the reliable
operation of the computer. A sample of the chassis would be needed for evaluation.

The following is the preferred custom system. For vendors that supply
fixed systems such as Dell, HP and IBM we would want quotes on equivalent
systems . No AMD CPU systems!

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Custom system spec: 200 computer systems
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

CPU: Intel P4 1.7 GHz; 478-pin socket
High quality ball bearing CPU cooling fan

Motherboard: ASUS P4S333 w/audio

Memory: Micron or Kingston DDR266 512 MByte DIMM non-ecc

Network: 3 COM 905CX-TXM PCI 10/100

Disk Drive: Quantum AS40GB 7200 RPM or equivalent

Keyboard + mouse: Logitech PS/2 104 Keyboard
Logitech PS/2 optical wheel mouse

Graphics: ATI XPERT 2000PRO 32MB AGP

Monitor: Samsung Flat 700IFT 17" (1600x1200@75)

Chassis: P4 Mid or full tower chassis; maximum height 20"
300 Watt Power supply with ball bearing fan
two extra ball bearing chassis cooling fans (quiet fans)

Operating System: (free through MSDN Academic Alliance)

Burn-in test: test the system
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

wow, do lots of schools do this?

 

[AGodspeed]

LOL, what school does this? You got a link, I'd really like to know....

EDIT: Btw, what does this have anything to do with the amount of heat an AMD processor produces?

 

[Bluga]

scroll down, click quote unfo

 

[AA0]

This isn't a problem with AMDs heat.... the real story with these schools is that the people that run them are complete idiots. They are told one thing by someone and believe it, either that or they are complete intel zealots. I meet a lot of both around here, very few open minded people in the tech field.

Our school is exactly the same way, since these two are close together I wouldn't doubt a connection. These are the people that say AMD is unstable but choose to run a MS server OS that crashes and goes down constantly.....

I love meeting these zealots in person, and I can prove how stupid they are...

 

[Remnant2]

agreed. I doubt its' the heat problem (which is really a non-problem; the heat production of the P4 and the equivelent XP-rated processor are identical).

It's just been true for a long time that established IT professionals stay Intel-only. I can't say I totally blame them, because if you choose a part wrong you have to live with any problems multiplied 200x over -- but it makes them the most conservative people on earth. Arguing with them is like sticking your head repeatedly in the mud.

 

[WarCon]

I have worked for a couple school districts and they all have about the same quote request. NO AMD's. Maybe there is a nationwide standards website for school districts and the person that wrote that still doesn't know that there is a legit second processor company. That use to be the attitude for a lot of business's.

 

[Sunner]

Thats quite understandable IMO.
The problem is that it's politically correct to buy Intel boxes, if you have problems, blame whoever you boguht them from.
If you get problems with a bunch of AMD boxes, it's gonna be your fault cause AMD's are'nt as tried and true as Intel boxes.

If I were in charge of buying those comps, I'd probabaly do the same.

 

[jpprod]

True, true, the managers at several big schools/companies are about as hard Intel brand zealots you can find, even here in Finland. Fortunately there are exceptions to this rule, and I bet that in time, these dinosaurs will be extinct. For example the computing centre of our school, Helsinki University of Technology, has only bought AMD CPUs into x86 desktop systems during recent years.

 

[sandorski]

Ah well, leaves more for EA, NASA, USC, and the rest of us.

 

[Priit]

That "intel==pc" mentality is pretty usual in conservative places like schools and govermential organs. Before my friend got police IT manager job, they used to buy machines with fastest P3 processors and cheapest other parts for workstation cause "everything non-intel is incompatible". Now police has bought about 800 computers with duron/athlon processors, saved quite a lot money and everything still works as well as on "only intel" times...

 

[Strawberrymom]

schools are smart thats why they go Intel , reliability is what its about

 

[Lord Evermore]

Sorry, but the heat problem IS one of the issues (obviously concerns about AMD not being completely compatible as well, and simply not being the "real" x86 processor company play the largest problem). If a P4's cooling system fails, the system keeps running. I've yet to see a new demonstration since Tom's Hardware showed the Athlon burning up when the heatsink came off. While the onboard thermal diode may help, it is quite obviously not going to keep the system running, possibly not even keeping it alive.

I'm a great big AMD fan. But heat and the design of the processor package (cracked cores) are HUGE issues to me, issues that need to be resolved. If I was responsible for that many computers, I'd go with a P4 or even a P-III in the past just on the heat issue, despite knowing better on the other issues. Certainly I think in this instance, the issue is more political and lack of knowledge in the differences in the two systems, but I'd still say they made the right decision, if not necessarily for the right reasons. I don't think the particular bolded statement about the power and cooling being vital is indicative that they were paying that much attention to the heat issue, simply that it IS an issue to them, not necessarily the most important.

One thing I've never seen tested during heatsink reviews or roundups is the impact of environment on performance. I wonder whether an AMD system can deal with increasing ambient temperature as well as an Intel system. The only way to test would be to do a performance test on both types of systems using various heatsinks, in a controlled environment, and then test them again at higher and higher ambient temperatures. This would be an issue for me as well if I had control over that many machines. Heating and cooling systems do fail, and I wouldn't expect a school campus to have backup systems like a datacenter would. Even with functioning systems, individual preferences (for example someone's office) might mean differences in temperature that could affect reliability. It would be nice to know that a particular system is going to deal well with various environments. (I think I'll make another separate post about this.)

 

[extro]

The schools are right for shunning AMD. Their number one concern is reliability, not bragging rights for having a fast box that crashes.

 

[t0mmyb0y]

These schools are missing out...

You get the benefits of a cheaper processor, just as much stability, and you can save on heating costs for your computer labs! Just think how much heat 200 Athlons could pump out!

To tell the truth, this would make a good study. Put a comparatively equipped AMD system made by a name brand manufacturer against an Intel based system from the same manufacturer. Run the same stress tests and see which one fails first. Maybe I am naive, but I have never seen this done with "pre-built" systems. (too bad Dell chooses to exclude AMD from their line...)

 

[AA0]

If someone is worried about the HSF falling off, then they are sad, and just a intel zealot. The computers at school sit in the same spot for years until they are replaced....

 

[FishTankX]

No, AA0. I think what their worried about is the HS/F failing. That would be disastrous. P4's slow down a bit and give you some time to react. If these things are going 10 hours a day for 5 years then they've reached they're MTBF Limit. And yes, with AthlonXP2000+'s they could probably last 5 years. Look at how incredibly well those Pentium233MMX machines have held up! Still keep going and going and going.. and for wordprocessing and such their real good. Anyways, the fan would die, CPU over, motherboard burns up, end of story. Would you still reccomend AMD to a school if you had to pay for every hardware failure that happned? Do you have that much faith in AMD?

 

[Bluga]

ya, our school's computer never shuts down, the lab is open 24*7days a week, i dunno if AMD can handle that.

 

[billyjak]

I would not put an Athlon in a school either.
I love AMD for my system, but no way would put it in a schools computer.
Intel has proven to be more stable than AMD.
I have built many of both and sorry to say Intel is the clearcut winner in stability.
People with AMD as myself will argue this until their blue in the face.
I do experience an occasional lockup on my system, but I don't mind because I oc.
But in AMD's defence, I have a 700 Athlon slot 1 in a gigabyte computer in my wife's computer and it is rock stable. never locks up or crashes 24/7.

 

[Sunner]

I'd trust a well built AMD box, such as the 1U servers based on Tyan's Thunder mobos.

I wouldn't trust one using a VIA, SiS or ALi chipset though.
Not for 24/7 use that is, I dont have any stability problems whatsoever with my KT266A based rig, but that doesn't mean I fully trust it.

Oh and I still wouldn't buy even an all AMD Tyan based box for work either, unless it was from Compaq.

 

[insdav3]

I would think the main thing is customer support. Intel being the 'giant' would have the best network of results with that at least.

But don't get me wrong, I love AMD

 

[Aelus]

My school just bought 30 or so comps for the CAD class.

athlon xp 1500+
512 meg
via chipset, don't know which
21" philips monitors
geforce3 200's.

they rock, and the reason they bought em, is simply because the athlon is a better cpu for most engineering apps.

Aelus

 

[ToBeMe]

<< wow, do lots of schools do this? >>


I know for sure several local High Schools and Elem./Middle Schools do! I've presented proposals for systems in several different school districts locally and each time the AMD systems were cheaper..................but, each time the schools have gone with Intel systems..........

 

[Duvie]

Lets not forget how much intel donates to schools yearly in computers...the schools know who their "sugardaddy is"....

I agree above most cadd base classes at colleges are using athlons or recommending them....Flat out that athlon 1500+ is going to rock a p4 in cadd up to a much more expensive p4 of higher mhz...

 

[sharkeeper]

Perhaps it's time for Swiftech or Alpha (8045) to bid for cooling solutions that don't fail. (ie fall off!)

Cheers!