AMD's Richard Huddy on the state of PC graphics, Mantle 2 and APUs

[Carfax83]

The other possibility though is that before Mantle there was no DX12 plans. If we look at the timeline, when AMD showed Mantle they said they had been working on it for ~2 years. When Msft announced DX12 they said it will be ready in ~2 years. Coincidence?

That's highly implausible. According to NVidia, discussions with Microsoft about what DX12 would look like began over 4 years ago.

And then starting in early 2013, they started on a working design which took about a year to make and was showcased in GDC 2014 on NVidia hardware.

Source

When you factor in facts such as DX12's backward compatibility with DX11, and it's multi architectural compatibility, then it's even more telling that DX12 had a longer development cycle than Mantle, and could not possibly be directly derived from the latter..

 

[3DVagabond]

That's highly implausible. According to NVidia, discussions with Microsoft about what DX12 would look like began over 4 years ago.

And then starting in early 2013, they started on a working design which took about a year to make and was showcased in GDC 2014 on NVidia hardware.

Source

When you factor in facts such as DX12's backward compatibility with DX11, and it's multi architectural compatibility, then it's even more telling that DX12 had a longer development cycle than Mantle, and could not possibly be directly derived from the latter..

Everyone has been having discussions with msft for years about a low level API. Again, AMD has been sharing their work on Mantle with msft all along. Nothing in that blog dismisses anything AMD has said. It actually tells me that before last year the IHV's were in deed not working on DX12 with msft. Again, having a discussion 4 years ago is not the same thing as actually working on something. Johan said he had approached msft years ago and was shot down.

From the nVidia blog you linked:

Microsoft, described DX12 as the joint effort of hardware vendors, game developers and his team.

Shows that input from everyone is needed for DX12. IHV's, ISV's, and msft all have to be involved. DX isn't anything that is or can be developed in secrecy.

 

[Carfax83]

Shows that input from everyone is needed for DX12. IHV's, ISV's, and msft all have to be involved. DX isn't anything that is or can be developed in secrecy.

Yes, but your insinuation was that Mantle was responsible for Microsoft making DX12, and that Microsoft is using Mantle as a template for DX12..

 

[blackened23]

I'm sure every hardware vendor is giving input to Microsoft about specific graphics features to be used in their respective architectures. Kepler is different from Intel's iGPU which is different than GCN. Being closer to the hardware means programming more closely to the hardware, specifically to the hardware. That means nvidia is in talks with MS to implement NV specific features. Intel as well. So on and so forth. Mantle being equated to DX12 is pretty ridiculous. Did Mantle push MS to release it more quickly? I don't know, but as far as Mantle being exactly DX12 is pretty ridiculous. The obvious question is if not even all of AMD's DX11 cards can derive a benefit from Mantle, how are other non AMD cards supposed to derive a benefit? If Mantle is designed for GCN how are non GCN cards supposed to derive a benefit? When not even all of AMD's DX11 cards can benefit? Is this more Huddy marketing babble?

Again, MS is in talks with all vendors about their specific features to be implemented. And the fact of the matter is, NV has had DX12 beta drivers and was the first vendor to do so (and they had DX12 running Forza IIRC on NV hardware). Now that would be odd indeed if AMD was the one that put in the work into DX12, but then nvdia has DX12 drivers in beta state before AMD. Now how does that work if DX12 = Mantle. Is someone going to tell me that DX12 is a Mantle template but Nvidia had "mantle template" beta drivers for DX12 before AMD did. LOL. Come on. Something doesn't add up and it sounds like its more marketing talk. Aside from this, MS stated that DX12 has been in the works for many years.

Now I think Mantle is a great value add feature for AMD users and it was a great move for AMD. If that pushed MS to release DX12 sooner despite DX12 being in the works for some time, great, but I don't think for one second that Mantle is a DX12 template. It might be a template for AMD's GCN hardware. Aside from that...give me a break. All 3 graphics architectures from all vendors are very, very different. I just wish AMD would spare us the marketing BS that they've been spitting out nonstop to perpetuate a "good guy" image.

 

[3DVagabond]

I'm sure every hardware vendor is giving input to Microsoft about specific graphics features to be used in their respective architectures. Kepler is different from Intel's iGPU which is different than GCN. Being closer to the hardware means programming more closely to the hardware, specifically to the hardware. Mantle being equated to DX12 is pretty ridiculous. The obvious question is if not even all of AMD's DX11 cards can derive a benefit from Mantle, how are other non AMD cards supposed to derive a benefit? Is this more Huddy marketing babble?

Again, MS is in talks with all vendors about their specific features to be implemented. And the fact of the matter is, NV has had DX12 beta drivers and was the first vendor to do so (and they had DX12 running Forza IIRC on NV hardware). Now that would be odd indeed if AMD was the one that put in the work into DX12, but then nvdia has DX12 drivers in beta state before AMD. Now how does that work if DX12 = Mantle. Come on. Something doesn't add up and it sounds like its more marketing talk. Aside from this, MS stated that DX12 has been in the works for many years.

How does one equal the other? Just because something isn't compatible with AMD's older archs doesn't mean it won't be compatible with nVidia or Intel current hardware.

 

[Madpacket]

What Huddy is stating about needing future versions of Mantle to get the most out of AMD hardware makes sense. A generalized driver will never be as fast so it doesn't bother me at all.

The hyperbolic comments about who was first is just silly. Just step back a few feet and look at the big picture. Microsoft has had years to get out DX12 but they sat on their butts while focusing on XBOX. So AMD comes along with Mantle and forces Microsoft's hand at actually doing something with DX12 as they can't risk another 3DFX Glide scenario from breaking out.

Look as long as DX/OpenGL is used primarily for game development I've no problem with a few Mantle enabled games to get the most performance out of this very expensive hardware. Nvidia should do the same thing IMO.

 

[Keysplayr]

How does one equal the other? Just because something isn't compatible with AMD's older archs doesn't mean it won't be compatible with nVidia or Intel current hardware.

I think you're setting yourself up for a letdown here Vag. You may not care, so just sayin.

 

[3DVagabond]

I think you're setting yourself up for a letdown here Vag. You may not care, so just sayin.

All I was saying is that not working with older AMD designs in no way proves it won't work on other IHV's hardware. I also realize there's no proof that it will.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I love how people are trying to make out the 6000/5000/4000 series amd GPUs not supporting mantle and dx12 are making it out like amd is evil for doing this. Its simply because the architectures are completely incapable of supporting it.

 

[blackened23]

Maybe you misinterpreted. But you hit the nail on the head. Because those older AMD cards aren't GCN, they won't support Mantle. It's almost as if because NV and intel don't have GCN hardware, they cannot support Mantle despite the blabbering that Huddy has done. '

No, AMD is not evil for not supporting Mantle on non capable cards. I think Mantle was a great move. AMD's marketing lying through their teeth while trying to create a good guy image though? I don't know about that nonsense. Some that are insisting that Mantle is DX12 and that Mantle will work on non GCN cards from intel and NV, when Mantle doesn't even work on AMD'S NON GCN Cards, is quite hilarious. There is a common sense factor here. Programming closer to the metal requires programming specifically for the GPU, well all GPUs are not created similarly. Obvious common sense stuff. But MS will implement all 3 vendor features in DX12 for NV, AMD and intel. And then you have the fact that AMD doesn't have DX12 beta drivers while others do, that's quite odd if DX 12 is a mantle template. Something doesn't add up here.

 

[3DVagabond]

Maybe you misinterpreted. But you hit the nail on the head. Because those older AMD cards aren't GCN, they won't support Mantle. It's almost as if because NV and intel don't have GCN hardware, they cannot support Mantle despite the blabbering that Huddy has done. '

No, AMD is not evil for not supporting Mantle on non capable cards. I think Mantle was a great move. AMD's marketing lying through their teeth while trying to create a good guy image though? I don't know about that nonsense. Some that are insisting that Mantle is DX12 and that Mantle will work on non GCN cards from intel and NV, when Mantle doesn't even work on AMD'S NON GCN Cards, is quite hilarious. There is a common sense factor here. Programming closer to the metal requires programming specifically for the GPU, well all GPUs are not created similarly. Obvious common sense stuff. But MS will implement all 3 vendor features in DX12 for NV, AMD and intel. And then you have the fact that AMD doesn't have DX12 beta drivers while others do, that's quite odd if DX 12 is a mantle template. Something doesn't add up here.

You are confusing doesn't work on anything except GCN with won't work on anything except GCN. By your logic as soon as AMD moves beyond GCN Mantle won't work with their GPU's anymore.

You also state that it's a fact that AMD doesn't have DX12 drivers. Do you have a source for this fact?

After msft implements all 3 IHV's features into DX12 then what? We will be stuck with that feature set for years again. I look forward to the possibility of rapid advancement in the rendering API Mantle is proposing.

 

[blackened23]

So without positive proof for, and without positive proof against, we're back to where we started. The common sense factor tells me and should tell everyone, that it won't. The common sense factor also tells that if Mantle were a DX12 template, that AMD would be the first with beta drivers. But NV had the Forza demo running via DX12 and they were the first vendor with DX12 beta drivers. NV stated they worked hand in hand with MS for years in the making of a next gen DX. As AMD intel and NV all will. These are very different GPU architectures. Optimizations for one are not optimizations for another. Period. Common sense. But you can argue without positive proof and against common sense for all you care to do.

Intel and NV are not going to license GCN. Intel and NV are not going to be held by the balls by an API that is under a competitors control. Intel and NV are not going to license GCN ever, that's a pipedream if I ever heard one. And let's revisit the common sense factor, if Mantle were ever designed to work on everything as AMD's marketing insists, it would work on AMD's non GCN hardware. But going against common sense we're to believe that Mantle is going to work on competing non GCN hardware when it doesn't even work on AMD's non GCN hardware. And going back, remember what a struggle the Mantle drivers were when they worked on the 290 cards (GCN) but didn't quite work so well on the 270 and 280 cards. That sounds ridiculous to me. Mantle not working on competing hardware? That's perfectly fine. I don't care for Mantle working on outside hardware, but I think it is a really great value add for AMD users. Just like NV has their software value adds for NV users. But AMD marketing pretending Mantle is something that it isn't through marketing double talk? Huddy talking through his backend non stop? Yeah, I think it's pretty silly.

 

[3DVagabond]

So without positive proof for, and without positive proof against, we're back to where we started. The common sense factor tells me and should tell everyone, that it won't. The common sense factor also tells that if Mantle were a DX12 template, that AMD would be the first with beta drivers. But NV had the Forza demo running via DX12 and they were the first vendor with DX12 beta drivers. NV stated they worked hand in hand with MS for years in the making of a next gen DX. As AMD intel and NV all will. These are very different GPU architectures. Optimizations for one are not optimizations for another. Period. Common sense. But you can argue without positive proof and against common sense for all you care to do.

Intel and NV are not going to license GCN. Intel and NV are not going to be held by the balls by an API that is under a competitors control. Intel and NV are not going to license GCN ever, that's a pipedream if I ever heard one. And let's revisit the common sense factor, if Mantle were ever designed to work on everything as AMD's marketing insists, it would work on AMD's non GCN hardware. But going against common sense we're to believe that Mantle is going to work on competing non GCN hardware when it doesn't even work on AMD's non GCN hardware. And going back, remember what a struggle the Mantle drivers were when they worked on the 290 cards (GCN) but didn't quite work so well on the 270 and 280 cards. That sounds ridiculous to me. Mantle not working on competing hardware? That's perfectly fine. I don't care for Mantle working on outside hardware, but I think it is a really great value add for AMD users. Just like NV has their software value adds for NV users. But AMD marketing pretending Mantle is something that it isn't through marketing double talk? Huddy talking through his backend non stop? Yeah, I think it's pretty silly.

So once AMD comes out with a new arch it won't support Mantle according to you, and that makes sense?

Just because nVidia hardware was used to demo DX12 doesn't prove or even speak to whether or not AMD has DX12 drivers. AMD was out promoting Mantle at the time. Why would they take their time and resources to actively promote DX12? Pretty obvious why nVidia didn't mind doing it.

nVidia stated they had a discussion with msft years ago about it. Show me where it says anything else. I can find where they said they've actually been working with msft since last year.

Where did I say anything about licensing GCN? AFAIK, nVidia is the only one who has an active licensing program for their arch's, Kepler to be specific. Most of what you are posting is rationalizing, not common sense.

 

[desprado]

So once AMD comes out with a new arch it won't support Mantle according to you, and that makes sense?

Just because nVidia hardware was used to demo DX12 doesn't prove or even speak to whether or not AMD has DX12 drivers. AMD was out promoting Mantle at the time. Why would they take their time and resources to actively promote DX12? Pretty obvious why nVidia didn't mind doing it.

nVidia stated they had a discussion with msft years ago about it. Show me where it says anything else. I can find where they said they've actually been working with msft since last year.

Where did I say anything about licensing GCN? AFAIK, nVidia is the only one who has an active licensing program for their arch's, Kepler to be specific. Most of what you are posting is rationalizing, not common sense.

I am just saying fact that MS showed Dx11,Dx11.2 demo both on Nvidia cards and just saying that most professional industries like MS prefer somehow Nvidia over AMD on PC but on Console it is different story.

Bro i am really happy if GTA V use Mantle but i grantee it wont because that game is already listed Nvidia sponsored game so as Dying Light which more towards gamework title.

Coming to mantle i have both R9 290 CF and GTX 780 TI SLI
on 2560 by 1440 GTX 780 TI SLI did not go below 100 fps and has 26.33% increase in performance over R9 290 CF OC (Mantle).

Nvidia DX11 is better than AMD DX11 due to better CPU performance.

I even tried to underclock my processor to 2.5GHZ and use Single GTX 780 TI on 1080p and fps did not go below 68fps and max was beyond 100fps in BF4

 

[3DVagabond]

I am just saying fact that MS showed Dx11,Dx11.2 demo both on Nvidia cards and just saying that most professional industries like MS prefer somehow Nvidia over AMD on PC but on Console it is different story.

Bro i am really happy if GTA V use Mantle but i grantee it wont because that game is already listed Nvidia sponsored game so as Dying Light which more towards gamework title.

Coming to mantle i have both R9 290 CF and GTX 780 TI SLI
on 2560 by 1440 GTX 780 TI SLI did not go below 100 fps and has 26.33% increase in performance over R9 290 CF OC (Mantle).

Nvidia DX11 is better than AMD DX11 due to better CPU performance.

I even tried to underclock my processor to 2.5GHZ and use Single GTX 780 TI on 1080p and fps did not go below 68fps and max was beyond 100fps in BF4

I'm not sure what part of my post you were responding to, but that's OK. As far as your experience with BF4, all I can say is it isn't typical now is it?

I'm not going to dig back or ask you to prove it, but it seems wierd that msft would have waited 6 months for nVidia to have DX11 hardware after AMD did before they demoed DX11.

 

[desprado]

I'm not sure what part of my post you were responding to, but that's OK. As far as your experience with BF4, all I can say is it isn't typical now is it?

I'm not going to dig back or ask you to prove it, but it seems wierd that msft would have waited 6 months for nVidia to have DX11 hardware after AMD did before they demoed DX11.

No.Nvdia DX11 tessellation is much much better than AMD and even know AMD cannot catch up in that aspect.
So MS did not demo DX11 tessellation on AMD which was one of major improvement.

 

[3DVagabond]

No.Nvdia DX11 tessellation is much much better than AMD and even know AMD cannot catch up in that aspect.
So MS did not demo DX11 tessellation on AMD which was one of major improvement.

OK, but the relevance to this thread is...?

 

[desprado]

OK, but the relevance to this thread is...?

No i just replying though nothing more.Sorry for going out of the topic.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Maybe you misinterpreted. But you hit the nail on the head. Because those older AMD cards aren't GCN, they won't support Mantle. It's almost as if because NV and intel don't have GCN hardware, they cannot support Mantle despite the blabbering that Huddy has done. '

No, AMD is not evil for not supporting Mantle on non capable cards. I think Mantle was a great move. AMD's marketing lying through their teeth while trying to create a good guy image though? I don't know about that nonsense. Some that are insisting that Mantle is DX12 and that Mantle will work on non GCN cards from intel and NV, when Mantle doesn't even work on AMD'S NON GCN Cards, is quite hilarious. There is a common sense factor here. Programming closer to the metal requires programming specifically for the GPU, well all GPUs are not created similarly. Obvious common sense stuff. But MS will implement all 3 vendor features in DX12 for NV, AMD and intel. And then you have the fact that AMD doesn't have DX12 beta drivers while others do, that's quite odd if DX 12 is a mantle template. Something doesn't add up here.

The reason why Mantle will not work on 6000/5000/4000 series GPU's is because they are VLIW and not SIMD. The reason why people believe that Mantle would work on Nvidia GPU's is because they are SIMT which is basically SIMD.

At least that's my understanding of the topic. What AMD basically said about Mantle working on other hardware also applies to DX12. As long as you meet the basic feature set and have a driver created it should work. SIMD for AMD and SIMT for nvidia are fairly similar.

 

[sontin]

I like it how Huddy literally said that they will never optimize Mantle for other hardware and that they will have the last word for everything but on the other hand they demand access to nVidia's Gameworks libaries and that nVidia must optimize those for them, too.

Hypocrite.

 

[monstercameron]

No i just replying though nothing more.Sorry for going out of the topic.

AMD was first to market with tessellation hardware all the way back in the hd3k series...

 

[monstercameron]

I like it how Huddy literally said that they will never optimize Mantle for other hardware and that they will have the last word for everything but on the other hand they demand access to nVidia's Gameworks libaries and that nVidia must optimize those for them, too.

Hypocrite.

someones reading comprehension is horribad! show me where did AMD askrd nvidia to optimize the libraries?

 

[AtenRa]

I like it how Huddy literally said that they will never optimize Mantle for other hardware and that they will have the last word for everything but on the other hand they demand access to nVidia's Gameworks libaries and that nVidia must optimize those for them, too.

Hypocrite.

There is a big difference,

Mantle not being optimized for everyone doesnt cripple NVIDIAs hardware in DX11-12. NVIDIA can still optimize their drivers for every DX11-12 games even if Mantle is not optimized for their hardware. The game will still be optimized for NVIDIAs hardware in DX11-12.

Now AMD cannot optimize Mantle in non Mantle enable Game, so if you dont have access to Gameworks then you dont even optimize for vanilla DX11-12 leaving AMD cards crippled for that game.

If Gameworks only worked outside of DX11-12 then AMD wouldnt even bother needing access to it.

And VulgarDisplay got it right, older AMD Graphics Architectures are VLIW 4 and 5, GCN is SIMD. That is the reason HD6000 series and older cards are not supported.

Also, Mantle 2 may not be backwards compatible with GCN 1 hardware. But when Mantle 2 comes out, GCN 1 cards (HD7000 series) will be obsolete.

 

[3DVagabond]

I like it how Huddy literally said that they will never optimize Mantle for other hardware and that they will have the last word for everything but on the other hand they demand access to nVidia's Gameworks libaries and that nVidia must optimize those for them, too.

Hypocrite.

They want nVidia to make the source code available, which is exactly what AMD plans to do. Nothing hypocritical at all. Add to that nVidia hardware doesn't have to run using the Mantle path, Gameworks gives no such option. The FUD is just incredible.

 

[Noctifer616]

I like it how Huddy literally said that they will never optimize Mantle for other hardware and that they will have the last word for everything but on the other hand they demand access to nVidia's Gameworks libaries and that nVidia must optimize those for them, too.

Hypocrite.

It's not AMDs job to write drivers for NVidia or optimize them. AMD has to make the API public and reveal the specs. Based on that other vendors can write drivers and do optimization work.

It works the same way with MS and DirectX.