AMD's Roy Taylor: PhysX/Cuda doomed?

[blackened23]

Why would GPU-PhysX via OpenCL not be possible on a console?

The next-generation consoles are using a form of physx which is merely for the simulation of actual in game physics. The neat graphical effects which you can find in games like Borderlands 2 and what not will not be present, as those require GPU acceleration to be *usable* (note the keyword here) and it will not be usable.

Keep in mind there are two forms of physx. One is merely an actual physics engine which assists games in collision detection and stuff of that nature - there is no GPU accleration involved here. There are many games using this form of physx. One example off the top of my head is Dragon Age: Origins. It used physx for the actual physics engine and collision detection, but there were obviously no GPU effects - DA: Origins used physx on the PC and all console versions of the game.

Then there is GPU accelerated physx, which realistically needs a CUDA nvidia GPU to be usable. Some games have allowed these effects to be CPU bound, but in every case it isn't usable due to horrible performance. Obviously, the next generation consoles will not have a CUDA GPU installed and will only be using the former phsyx method.

There will be no GPU or CPU bound physx on the next generation consoles; it will only be used as a collision detection or actual physics engine for games. Keep in mind that there are PS3 and Xbox 360 games using this implementation as well - this is nothing new. It isn't earth shattering news that the next-gen consoles support this form of physx, practically everything on the planet can run this type of physx, including most smart phone chips.

 

[SirPauly]

That thread just like PhysX is almost dead.It is a sticky thread and was last commented on nine days ago.You almost post alone in that thread....lol.


Game physics has a lot of potential but nobody is doing much to advance it...

It's a resource thread with over a 157,000 views! But you're in there as well with your dislikes, epic fails and such, too!

 

[Mr Expert]

This should have been called x87 GPU Physx is doomed .

 

[Tempered81]

Why would GPU-PhysX via OpenCL not be possible on a console?

Don't know. Maybe it is 100% possible but there are licensing issues causing the hold-up. If AMD ever licenses CUDA & PhysX technolgy from Nvidia and it all runs on OpenCL, games for consoles can start having "GPU PhysX" because CUDA and PhysX can be ported to OpenCL and run on the AMD hardware inside the consoles? Not sure bro, but wasn't there supposed to be some logic in NV ASIC since G80 that is specific to CUDA like the C++ stuff? Would that make it impossible? Would the actual hardware have to first be designed with CUDA in mind for it to work, therefore nullifying the possibility on Xbone/PS4 gen or just port it straight over?

 

[sontin]

In many cases a scripted animation can be built off a recorded physics simulation which is simply turned into a set of pre-baked key frames.

A animation is not real physic. You can't call it "physic" because there is no real interaction.

It looks identical every time you play it but as long as the rest of environment is static it can be perfectly accurate, or at least as accurate as the initial physics simulation it was calculated from.

No, it can not be accurate. That would mean you calculate everything. What you see is nothing else than a trigger to start the animation. The "physics" interaction is the contact of both elements. After that it's fake and no physic.

Now, if PhysX was actually integrated into game play such that the real time physics of the objects involved were somehow important to the game logic, for example chunks of debris coming out of an explosion could do damage to a player or kill them, then PhysX would have a benefit over a pre-baked animation.

That makes no sense at all. Destroying a building has nothing to do with PhysX. It's like saying why do i need TressFX when it's not "actually integrated into game play such that the real time physics of the objects involved were somehow important to the game logic, for example chunks of debris coming out of an explosion could do damage to a player or kill them, then PhysX would have a benefit over a pre-baked animation". Or Tessellation, or HDR Lightning, or Shadows...

HOWEVER, this isn't how PhysX is implemented, it's tricky to get that information to the CPU in real time, and doing so would create a dependency on PhysX support would make the game unplayable on a large number of computers. So developers don't do this, they just make pretty effects with it.

What? A realtime fog simulation is an integrated part of the game because it creates a much better atmosphere.
I can say the same: Integrate destruction without effect physic makes no sense because in the real world debris are not vanished after 1 second.

 

[Mr Expert]

A animation is not real physic. You can't call it "physic" because there is no real interaction.

You need to consider the meaning of what Physics and Physx is. Weather or not it's sipted does not matter it's just how well the simulation translates in game to create the effect the game developer was after. BFBC2 buildings destruction is scripted and yet it's way more realistic than anything from Physx. In games such as BFBC2, BF3 etc realism is the effect the game developers were after so in that case Physics are what is needed to simulate that effect. In a fanatasy game world like Alice Madness returns or BL2 Physx works because the game developers are trying to create some make belive fantasy world where the impossible is possible. The down side to Physx is that most people cannot run them without massive framerate issues so until nvidia fixes this problem I cannot recomend or promote the use of this tech as a vaiable option that will advance the gaming industry in any meanful way.

Physics - is the natural science that involves the study of matter[6] and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

PhysX - Some quasi linguistic marketing speak lingo developed by Ageia and bought out by nvidia that select end users hold as some badge of honor otherwise known as fanboism.

 

[Jaydip]

You need to consider the meaning of what Physics and Physx is. Weather or not it scripted does not matter it's just how well the simulation translates in game to create the effect the game developer was after. BFBC2 buildings destruction is scripted and yet it's way more realistic than anything from Physx.


Physics - is the natural science that involves the study of matter[6] and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

PhysX - Some quasi linguistic marketing speak lingo developed by Ageia and bought out by nvidia that select end users hold as some badge of honor otherwise known as fanboism.

Not this again

 

[exar333]

I think as OpenCL gets used by more and more people, CUDA will start to lose market share. The people that buy the hardware to do the number crunching do NOT like being locked to one manufacturer. Having 2-3 companies compete is a far better setup for end users.

The only games with PhysX these days are nVidia sponsored games. With the new consoles really using GPGPU this time around via OpenCL, I think things will start to slide away from PhysX.

The CEOs remarks don't make much sense. So what if CUDA goes away? NV is also OpenCL compliant, and their users would just switch to that. I don't see a problem.

If anything he/she should thank NV for their CUDA efforts but explain that OpenCL is the future. It's really not a big issue anyway, IMHO.

Physx is a niche-product and hopefully will be folded into general DX sometime and retired. I really don't think anyone cares too much about it, but there isn't a quick replacement waiting in the wings to take over...

 

[Lonbjerg]

I'm not sure which you are LOLing at, the more accurate part, where CUDA is what needs to be rewritten, not PhysX, my lack of specifying GPU PhysX, or my poor grammer.

PhysX uses CUDA instructions to do all its work, so it is CUDA that has to be rewritten, not PhysX.

Leave out the CUDA part...All NVIDIA needs to do is port PhysX to OpenCL...so it runs via openCL¨, not CUDA.

CUDA <> Open CL
PhysX <> Havok

That means that PhysX can run on both CUDA and OpenCL...porting "CUDA to OpenCL is something that makes NO sense!!!

It's that simple...hence why I bitch about people not have knowlegede over the simple basics in this debate...but yet insists on posting like their uninformed opinion matters...

 

[Lonbjerg]

This should have been called x87 GPU Physx is doomed .

Are you mentally disabled some how?

The x87 FUD was debunked LONG ago, PhysX SDK 3.0 and above don't use x87, but SSE2.

I will add that to the LARGE list of GARBAGE you keep posting.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Don't know. Maybe it is 100% possible but there are licensing issues causing the hold-up. If AMD ever licenses CUDA & PhysX technolgy from Nvidia and it all runs on OpenCL, games for consoles can start having "GPU PhysX" because CUDA and PhysX can be ported to OpenCL and run on the AMD hardware inside the consoles? Not sure bro, but wasn't there supposed to be some logic in NV ASIC since G80 that is specific to CUDA like the C++ stuff? Would that make it impossible? Would the actual hardware have to first be designed with CUDA in mind for it to work, therefore nullifying the possibility on Xbone/PS4 gen or just port it straight over?

Why do you post when you think CUDA is needed for PhysX on OpenCL?
Statements like that just shows you do not have a clue about what you are posting...

 

[Mr Expert]

The CEOs remarks don't make much sense. So what if CUDA goes away? NV is also OpenCL compliant, and their users would just switch to that. I don't see a problem.

If anything he/she should thank NV for their CUDA efforts but explain that OpenCL is the future. It's really not a big issue anyway, IMHO.

Physx is a niche-product and hopefully will be folded into general DX sometime and retired. I really don't think anyone cares too much about it, but there isn't a quick replacement waiting in the wings to take over...

Well there is TressFX however it offers the same bane as Physx in that it cripples anything but the best hardware and brings the framerate to a crawl. At leased TressFX is not locked down like Physx though.

 

[Lonbjerg]

You need to consider the meaning of what Physics and Physx is. Weather or not it's sipted does not matter it's just how well the simulation translates in game to create the effect the game developer was after. BFBC2 buildings destruction is scripted and yet it's way more realistic than anything from Physx. In games such as BFBC2, BF3 etc realism is the effect the game developers were after so in that case Physics are what is needed to simulate that effect. In a fanatasy game world like Alice Madness returns or BL2 Physx works because the game developers are trying to create some make belive fantasy world where the impossible is possible. The down side to Physx is that most people cannot run them without massive framerate issues so until nvidia fixes this problem I cannot recomend or promote the use of this tech as a vaiable option that will advance the gaming industry in any meanful way.

Physics - is the natural science that involves the study of matter[6] and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics

PhysX - Some quasi linguistic marketing speak lingo developed by Ageia and bought out by nvidia that select end users hold as some badge of honor otherwise known as fanboism.

A scripted animation is not physics.
Hence why we called it a SCRIPTED ANIMATION!!!

That is 2 more GARBAGE ost from you in a very short time...soon I will be able to post 10 FUD claims from you, to show you no one should read your posts as they are uinformed, false garbage...

 

[Mr Expert]

Are you mentally disabled some how?

The x87 FUD was debunked LONG ago, PhysX SDK 3.0 and above don't use x87, but SSE2.

I will add that to the LARGE list of GARBAGE you keep posting.

SSE is CPU bro. X87 is GPU.

 

[blackened23]

Why are you so angry when you post about this stuff? Take a chill pill, jeez.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Well there is TressFX however it offers the same bane as Physx in that it cripples anything but the best hardware and brings the framerate to a crawl. At leased TressFX is not locked down like Physx though.

It dosn't bring my hardware to a crawl..perhaps time to sell that i486 rig of your and come into the mordern world..

 

[Carfax83]

Advancements in CPUs are still occurring, game engines aren't demanding as much resource usage from modern CPUs (as a percentage of available resources). The core game logic tends to still run on one core. Yet we're getting more and more CPU power and more cores, with not much else to spend it on.

Performance increases on the CPU side are occurring at a much slower pace than on the GPU side, and game engines are becoming more demanding of CPU resources, not less, as game complexity increases.

Games like Watch Dogs and the Witcher 3 will require a lot of CPU power due to the size of the environment, detail and amount of A.I that will be present in the game.

Now, if PhysX was actually integrated into game play such that the real time physics of the objects involved were somehow important to the game logic, for example chunks of debris coming out of an explosion could do damage to a player or kill them, then PhysX would have a benefit over a pre-baked animation.

That's already been done in Metro 2033, which used hardware accelerated PhysX. Grenade shrapnel could kill you..

I remember playing the game once and tossing a grenade at some enemies which were quite a distance away. Thinking I was far enough to not have to worry about getting hit, I didn't use any cover.

When the grenade detonated, it killed the entire group of enemies, but a single piece of shrapnel also flew outward and struck Artyom (the main PC) in his head killing him.

That was one of my favorite game mechanics in Metro 2033. Unfortunately they disabled that feature in Metro Last Light

 

[Lonbjerg]

SSE is CPU bro. X87 is GPU.

Document your FUD for once...

 

[Mr Expert]

A scripted animation is not physics.
Hence why we called it a SCRIPTED ANIMATION!!!

It's a simulation of Physics not actual Physics. Developers can simulate Physics anyway they choose to so long as when A happens it stimulates action B. Physx is no more real time than so called scripted Physics other than the fact that perhaps more perameters have been programed into the code which can be done better on the CPU anyway if the developers so choose.

 

[sushiwarrior]

A scripted animation is not physics.
Hence why we called it a SCRIPTED ANIMATION!!!

Scripted physics are still physics. It accomplishes the same goal - the structure or w/e is destroyed, the player can watch that building get destroyed. Whether it is dynamic or static is a matter of implementation, the end goal is the same. Frankly, for a game like Battlefield dynamic destruction would be silly, because game balance is very important and unpredictable destruction ruins that... eg. in BC2, MCOM's are in structures that can be destroyed, or other important objectives. Getting a "lucky" dynamic destruction of the building could make it unintentionally hard or easy for the team to destroy the objective, hence static destruction is necessary.

It dosn't bring my hardware to a crawl..perhaps time to sell that i486 rig of your and come into the mordern world..

The lowest common denominator will always be what determines game features. Your super expensive computer only needs 1 copy of the game, so I suppose if you pay $200 per game that technology may be possible. It makes more business sense for the company to sell 100 copies targeted at low-end gaming computers than to sell 10 copies to enthusiasts, let alone 1 copy to "OMG I want the best evar" people like you. Your market is not proportionally represented, you want better features, buy 5 copies of the game instead of 1.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Woot my PCIe extender /w molex arrived today from China for $8 free shipping!

I'm just glad there are people out there who can get around the block so I can enjoy the best physics in gaming and not be bound to Nvidia for my main card. Win/Win imo!

 

[stahlhart]

Thread closed for moderator review.
-- stahlhart