America: Freedom to Fascism

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
What were we talking about again?

I was talking about lawn mowers and stuff.

John Deere

Been there, mowed that

Hehe, i know you have, we kick arse and mow lawns.

 

[Trell]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Trell

Originally posted by: Craig234
A sales tax is a terrible way to tax much. Money is like a river for most people - comes in, goes out - and like a lake for the wealthy, as they sit and own and grow, spending little.

Sales taxes hit the poorer far harder than the wealthy. It's the last thing we need, unless we want to return to feudalism even faster.

I see this arguement all the time, and I don't think that it is correct. Necessities such as food and clothing are NOT taxed and would not be taxed still. People with low incomes are spending a much higher % of their incomes on necessities compared to people with alot of money, this should result in the tax "rate" still being higher for people who rich people (since they buy a much much much larger amount of "luxury" items).

That will also ensure that only the top segment of the population can afford such things as a car or owning their own house, imagine the taxes if ALL taxes were sales taxes and the combined amount would be put on such things.

You need a mower, that will be $16 000, $500 to buy it and $15 500 in taxes.

That is a ridiculous unreasonable example. That would be a %3100 tax rate. If they were to levy a relatively reasonable 30% tax rate on everything that is not a necessity and you didnt get income taxed or property traxed most people would end up with alot more money to spend and could then still afford the house or car.

 

[burr4392]

Unreasonable tax rates are nothing new. The National Firearms Act of 1934 created a $200 tax on items such as sound suppressors, machine guns, rifles with barrel lengths less than 16 inches and shotguns with barrel lengths less than 18 inches. Keep in mind an anti tank rifle, in 1948 cost a whopping $129, a sound suppressor (silencer, nice for respecting your neighbors when you want to go out and practice and they might want to watch some TV, listen to the radio or maybe sleep) was a whole $1. At the time, many rifles and shotguns could be had for less than $50. There's a nice 400% tax for you. Remember a car was only a few hundred dollars too....

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: Trell

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Trell

Originally posted by: Craig234
A sales tax is a terrible way to tax much. Money is like a river for most people - comes in, goes out - and like a lake for the wealthy, as they sit and own and grow, spending little.

Sales taxes hit the poorer far harder than the wealthy. It's the last thing we need, unless we want to return to feudalism even faster.

I see this argument all the time, and I don't think that it is correct. Necessities such as food and clothing are NOT taxed and would not be taxed still. People with low incomes are spending a much higher % of their incomes on necessities compared to people with alot of money, this should result in the tax "rate" still being higher for people who rich people (since they buy a much much much larger amount of "luxury" items).

That will also ensure that only the top segment of the population can afford such things as a car or owning their own house, imagine the taxes if ALL taxes were sales taxes and the combined amount would be put on such things.

You need a mower, that will be $16 000, $500 to buy it and $15 500 in taxes.

That is a ridiculous unreasonable example. That would be a %3100 tax rate. If they were to levy a relatively reasonable 30% tax rate on everything that is not a necessity and you didnt get income taxed or property taxed most people would end up with a lot more money to spend and could then still afford the house or car.

The Scandinavian countries actually already have a VAT that is nearly that high coupled with an income tax. A higher sales tax/VAT could easily be coupled with higher funded welfare programs to compensate most of the loss in income to the poor. The benefit of raising the sales tax would be that we would get more saving compared to what we currently have.

I'm definitely not for getting the vast majority of our government revenue from a sales tax but I think it would be a good idea to get a larger share of our revenue from one. To say that the poor will be worse off seems very short sighted when you consider that Europe has a higher degree of income equality even though it relies much more on its regressive VAT which has effects similar to a sales tax.

 

[OokiiNeko]

That's an exception rather than the rule.

You`re right, but maybe not in the way you think.

I think this case is one of the few where tax on income was not paid.

Most of the other cases you hear about are people lying about their taxes and getting caught. Or not reporting capital gains, which is taxable.

The difference is, put down some bogus numbers, sign the form, and send it in, you are going to jail. (By signing the form, you are entering a contract that says your numbers are right, no?)

Refuse to sign the form, period, and you may have a chance.

 

[kmmatney]

I have seen the movie - my brother is always preaching about how great this is - he sent me a whole slew of related movies as well.

I have to admit, my brother does not have a full deck, and his life sucks, mostly do to his own stupidity. This movies seems to appeal to people who have a crappy life, from what I can tell. The whole second half of the movie is just a rant about how crappy america has is becoming - I guess this is appealing to anyone whose life sucks. In any case, I'm not going to trust something that sounds fishy and my brother is raving about it.

I have seen the movie but do not agree with everything. He makes a few good points (Federal Reserve stuff was interesting), but really just sounds like a whining looney in the end. At least that's what I thought.

btw- according to wiki:

Russo died of bladder cancer at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles, California on August 24, 2007.

 

[kmmatney]

My brother also sent me a bunch of movies starring Irwin Schiff, who I think started this main movement about not paying taxes. In one of the movies Irwin claimed that he has not paid taxes for several years, and he was bragging about how he wasn't in prison for it, and that the goverment had "nothing on him" to place him in prison. My brother was acting like this guy was his hero. About 6 motnhs later, Irwin Schiff was convicted of tax crimes, and he will die in jail, most likely. His story is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff

He did make a lot of money selling his books and material encouraging people to not pay income tax. Some of the arguments for this (and a few more Irwin Schiff quotes) are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_arguments

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: assmunch

originally posted by HombrePequeno

The Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is the law that allows the IRS to collect taxes from income.

Here's a Wiki article that does a nice job of countering any argument you probably have.

We don't pay our income tax to a bank. The IRS is a federal agency operating under the federal government. If you are talking about the Federal Reserve, then you are still wrong because it is only partially a private institution.

Do yourself and all of us a favor: Pay your taxes.

Don't pay your taxes? This guy didn't and won in court

Got it all figured out have you?

R.I.P. Aaron Russo

That's an exception rather than the rule.

And he knows that. Most of the people who say there's no legal reason to pay taxes pay all of them. They simply make this argument hoping that YOU won't pay, to see if it works--and it doesn't, so you go to jail for not paying and then they continue to post on the internet about how you don't need to do it, even though they do every April 15.

 

[morkinva]

When you're in a jury, you not only get to decide the facts of a tax case, you also have the power to reject the law as unfair thru jury nullification and acquit. Of course the judge won't tell you about this power.