American Cars vs. Imports

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: JS80
Until now (LS460)

LS460 is still weaker than the S550.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
exdeath, You argue like a politician, using very little logic.

The high powered American cars you mentioned, they're of crap quality and use very little technology and advanced engineering.

They're more exotic because Mercedes and BMWs have constantly created more powerful engines than Lexus. Lexus has never been able to compete in terms of power.

Until now (LS460)

The LS460 is a 4.6L V8 making 380 HP, nothing extraordinary. Regardless, I provided examples from other car builders, as this was a 'BMW/Mercedes pwns everything else' and not a 'BMW/Mercedes vs Lexus' debate.

Interesting to note that that LS460s 4.6L DOHC N/A V8 is ALMOST the same power output as the SVT 4.6L DOHC with a supercharger, and gets slightly better mileage in a heavier car. If thats the case, direct injection appears to be worth getting excited about.

Granted the SVT engine is lower compression ratio with a rather anemic M112 roots supercharger @ 8psi slapped on. In stock form the blower only cancels out the lower 8.5:1 CR while robbing MPG. With those cars its all about potential, not stock levels.

 

[Kirby]

Sh!tty Fords

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: JS80
Until now (LS460)

LS460 is still weaker than the S550.

LS460
4.6L V8
380 HP / 367 TQ
18/27 mpg
4332 LBS

S550
5.5L V8
382 HP / 391 TQ
15/22 mpg
4465 LBS

Three things to note here:

A) Almost a whole liter more displacement and only 2 more HP and 24 ft/lbs... am I missing something? When Ford went from 4.6L to 5.4L they gained 110 HP and 85 ft/lbs, all other factors held constant. Where is the advanced technology and engineering that the exotic Mercedes engine holds? Seems to me that the direct injection 'technology and engineering' of Lexus has been able to match the Mercedes engine with a whole liter less displacement. Mercedes says they aren't interested in direct injection at the present time. Do you want to dispute who the numbers would favor and by what margins if Lexus applied their 'advanced technology and engineering' to a 5.5L engine?

B) The extra .9 liter of the S550 does however provide 24 ft/lbs more torque than the LS460, and the power comes on a little bit sooner, at 6000 RPM vs 6400 RPM, nothing out of the ordinary in the world of engines as far as increased displacement is concerned. All fine and well, except in this context, people like you rallying behind European cars say its all about peak horsepower and high speed for the autobahn, not torque. I guess Mercedes doesn't agree

C) Icing on the cake, the LS460 gets better mileage while offering the same performance (the very small 24 ft/lbs torque advantage of the S550 if offset by the 133 lb weight disadvantage, so I'd call it even)


I see the S600 and S65 have a turbo V12, but the S550 is the car you brought up and it only has the 5.5L V8 FYI.

 

[beemercer]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
exdeath, You argue like a politician, using very little logic.

The high powered American cars you mentioned, they're of crap quality and use very little technology and advanced engineering.

They're more exotic because Mercedes and BMWs have constantly created more powerful engines than Lexus. Lexus has never been able to compete in terms of power.

:music:Trollin', trollin', trollin'
Keep that BS rollin'
Your head is really swollen,
Troll guy....:music:

:thumbsup:

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: exdeath
snipped some good stuff about AMG s550 being only marginally better then a ls460

Man, not that I don't enjoy reading the information you present, and the smackdown you lay on jlgatsby, but all he does is say "IM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG *STICKS FINGERS IN EARS* BLAHBLAHBLAH I CANT HEAR YOU!"

He lives in Gatsbyland, not the Real World.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: exdeath
snipped some good stuff about AMG s550 being only marginally better then a ls460

Man, not that I don't enjoy reading the information you present, and the smackdown you lay on jlgatsby, but all he does is say "IM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG *STICKS FINGERS IN EARS* BLAHBLAHBLAH I CANT HEAR YOU!"

He lives in Gatsbyland, not the Real World.

I didn't say one was better, just illustrating the differences and similarties to show JLGatsby that there isn't anything special about Mercedes other than the name. A name which coincidentally means less and less in this day of poor quality control and mass produced entry level C/E cars. The S550 and LS460 are identical in performance (one is slightly barely lighter, one has slightly barely more torque).

JLGatsby talks about superior 'advanced technology and engineering' but it is the LS460 that demonstrates the latter by matching the S550s performance with a 1 liter smaller engine and better fuel mileage with a car in the same weight bracket and features.

The only thing JLGatsby is correct about is that Lexus does not have a in house tuner like Mercedes does with AMG and Ford does with SVT. It should be obvious to anybody who knows cars, esp. Toyota, that this is not a lack of ability but a business decision and the targeted market.

I'm sure he will bring the supercharged AMG cars into the picture for an invalid comparison despite his original selection of the S550 for the comparison. Toyota's in house tuner TRD is releasing a 350 HP supercharged 3.5L V6 Camry in Australia. Anyone care to see a TRD badge on that LS460?

Just for fun lets use 350 HP / 263 HP = 1.33 to get a improvement factor from the N/A Camry to the supercharged version. Apply that to the 380 HP of the LS460 and you get 505 HP, more than reasonable for a supercharged 4.6 (duh says me with the Cobra). This is on par with the Mercedes supercharged 5.5L V8 or 6.2L V12.

Now Toyota could also go 5.5L instead of 4.6L and gain a leg on Mercedes. Using the Ford example (4.6-> 5.4 = 110 HP gain all else equal) it would be safe to assume that a TRD supercharged 5.5L V8 could reach the 600 HP goal; something Mercedes does with a 6.2L twin turbo V12. Toyota is known for their very safe conservative factory tunes (ie: A/F of 8-9 at WOT on the factory 3SGTE ECU) so any margin of error in my purely conjectured data here could be made up for in the ECU.

Of course Mercedes could also tune the hell out of their engines as well and employ the same technologies. Nothing against Mercedes or specifically mentioned car makers, but I think I make my point that it should be obvious that power can be found all across the board from anyone and anywhere. There is nothing more powerful, exotic, or exclusive about Mercedes or BMW engines. The science of burning hydrocarbons and making horsepower is known to all and has been for quite some time now. Even current improvements in the works such as direct cylinder injection... we've known that was going to be the best method since fuel injection was invented five decades ago, it's no surprise. Just had to wait for the cost and materials to play out.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: exdeath
snipped some good stuff about AMG s550 being only marginally better then a ls460

Man, not that I don't enjoy reading the information you present, and the smackdown you lay on jlgatsby, but all he does is say "IM RIGHT AND YOUR WRONG *STICKS FINGERS IN EARS* BLAHBLAHBLAH I CANT HEAR YOU!"

He lives in Gatsbyland, not the Real World.

I didn't say one was better, just illustrating the differences and similarties to show JLGatsby that there isn't anything special about Mercedes other than the name. A name which coincidentally means less and less in this day of poor quality control and mass produced entry level C/E cars. The S550 and LS460 are identical in performance (one is slightly barely lighter, one has slightly barely more torque).

JLGatsby talks about superior 'advanced technology and engineering' but it is the LS460 that demonstrates the latter by matching the S550s performance with a 1 liter smaller engine and better fuel mileage with a car in the same weight bracket and features.

The only thing JLGatsby is correct about is that Lexus does not have a in house tuner like Mercedes does with AMG and Ford does with SVT. It should be obvious to anybody who knows cars, esp. Toyota, that this is not a lack of ability but a business decision and the targeted market.

I'm sure he will bring the supercharged AMG cars into the picture for an invalid comparison despite his original selection of the S550 for the comparison. Toyota's in house tuner TRD is releasing a 350 HP supercharged 3.5L V6 Camry in Australia. Anyone care to see a TRD badge on that LS460?

Just for fun lets use 350 HP / 263 HP = 1.33 to get a improvement factor from the N/A Camry to the supercharged version. Apply that to the 380 HP of the LS460 and you get 505 HP, more than reasonable for a supercharged 4.6 (duh says me with the Cobra). This is on par with the Mercedes supercharged 5.5L V8 or 6.2L V12.

Nothing against Mercedes or specifically mentioned car makers, but rather it should be obvious that power can be found all across the power from anyone and anywhere. There is nothing more powerful, exotic, or exclusive about Mercedes or BMW engines. The science of burning hydrocarbons and making horsepower is known to all and has been for quite some time now.

I hadn't meant to imply you were saying one was better then the other, that's just the way I read it. I should have clarified.

 

[railer]

Death.....you're killing me. It's like your arguing with a monkey. Please stop....my sides are hurting.

I have a little Gatsby impression to try out:

"They're just better.......they're European!"

Do you like?

 

[alembic5]

Ahhh... how I love reading well informed posts based on provable facts. Cheers to you, Exdeath, for speaking some truth into this insanely misinformed post! I'm still waiting for JLGatsby to counter with some actual data proving his claims, but we all know this will never happen simply because said data doesn't exsist. What do I drive? a 1990 acura integra, bone stock. 166,000 miles, and I drive 75 miles per day. Great little car. Its noisy, rattles alot and leaks a little oil, but a valve cover gasket will fix that. For now, this is all I can afford. I have 2 babies to provide for! Which is why I sold my Suzuki GSXR-1000 a couple months back. That was a hard pill to swallow... I bought it new in 2001. But hey, my girls are worth it! I have plenty time to get another toy in the coming years.

 

[beemercer]

Originally posted by: alembic5
Ahhh... how I love reading well informed posts based on provable facts. Cheers to you, Exdeath, for speaking some truth into this insanely misinformed post! I'm still waiting for JLGatsby to counter with some actual data proving his claims, but we all know this will never happen simply because said data doesn't exsist. What do I drive? a 1990 acura integra, bone stock. 166,000 miles, and I drive 75 miles per day. Great little car. Its noisy, rattles alot and leaks a little oil, but a valve cover gasket will fix that. For now, this is all I can afford. I have 2 babies to provide for! Which is why I sold my Suzuki GSXR-1000 a couple months back. That was a hard pill to swallow... I bought it new in 2001. But hey, my girls are worth it! I have plenty time to get another toy in the coming years.

How did you like that bike?
I was thinking of getting a motorcycle, any recommendations for a good bike to start on?

 

[Black88GTA]

Originally posted by: fubar569

Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS
What do Americans know about making cars? I will never own an American car.

ignorance is bliss isn't it?

i'm not downing ALL OTHER car makes, but i'd rather support my own economy a bit rather than line the pockets of the next great german/italian/whatever car manufacturer. besides, we "stupid" americans know a fair bit more about automobiles than you think. Just remember, if it wasn't for Ransome Eli Olds and Henry Ford, your precious german auto assembly lines would never exist. They did pioneer that idea after all, and guess where They were from? that's right....the USA...

however, we all owe a thing or 2 to the french for once

The first car manufacturers in the world were French: Panhard & Levassor (1889) and Peugeot (1891).

didn't see that one coming did ya?

LMAO

(hint....check the cardomain link in his sig)

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: alembic5
Ahhh... how I love reading well informed posts based on provable facts. Cheers to you, Exdeath, for speaking some truth into this insanely misinformed post! I'm still waiting for JLGatsby to counter with some actual data proving his claims, but we all know this will never happen simply because said data doesn't exsist. What do I drive? a 1990 acura integra, bone stock. 166,000 miles, and I drive 75 miles per day. Great little car. Its noisy, rattles alot and leaks a little oil, but a valve cover gasket will fix that. For now, this is all I can afford. I have 2 babies to provide for! Which is why I sold my Suzuki GSXR-1000 a couple months back. That was a hard pill to swallow... I bought it new in 2001. But hey, my girls are worth it! I have plenty time to get another toy in the coming years.

Even if there was evidence that there is technology or engineering in a BMW or Mercedes engine that shows that they have superior engines, I'm ready.

After finding out if it was true or not, I would have just started pointing out that it doesn't even matter anyway:

GM 500+ HP LS7 with pushrods and 26 mpg *gasp*

Ford 4.6L making 700 ft-lbs from 2000 RPM to 6500 RPM with fixed cams. In other words the much sought after flat torque curve up high and down low that everyone else uses variable cam systems to attain.

Etc.

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: Black88GTA

Originally posted by: fubar569

Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS
What do Americans know about making cars? I will never own an American car.

ignorance is bliss isn't it?

i'm not downing ALL OTHER car makes, but i'd rather support my own economy a bit rather than line the pockets of the next great german/italian/whatever car manufacturer. besides, we "stupid" americans know a fair bit more about automobiles than you think. Just remember, if it wasn't for Ransome Eli Olds and Henry Ford, your precious german auto assembly lines would never exist. They did pioneer that idea after all, and guess where They were from? that's right....the USA...

however, we all owe a thing or 2 to the french for once

The first car manufacturers in the world were French: Panhard & Levassor (1889) and Peugeot (1891).

didn't see that one coming did ya?

LMAO

(hint....check the cardomain link in his sig)

Whenever I do this someone always falls for it. I get bored at work.

 

[cavemanmoron]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: Fmr12B
Top speed is great for an authobahn, in realioty where in America are you going to use it. Acelaeration from stop light to stop light is what American roads are made for.

In reality, where are you going to use acceleration? From one stop sign to the next? You're still breaking the law if you're burning rubber on a street or speeding, what's the difference?

American cars simply CANNOT hang in terms of top speed. I don't think an American car has ever been made that could do 200mph stock right off the lot, let alone the 220mph+ (a few 240+) some Euro cars are doing.

I think the first 200 mph "Stock car" was a 1969, Dodge Daytona;
second was the 1970 Plymouth Superbird.

BUDDY BAKER (more info)

Buddy's hometown is Charlotte, NC and he was born on January 25,1941. Buddy was the first Nascar racer to reach 200mph when he hit 200.47mph at Talladega in March of 1970 while driving a Dodge Daytona. He captured 17 of his 19 victories on Superspeedways where he was at his best. He started 699 races with 40 poles, 19 wins, 311 top 10 finishes and earned $3,995,300. Buddy retired in 1994 and pursued a career in radio and T.V.


The 1969 Dodge Daytona, was a car that you could buy at a local Dodge dealer,
and with Not too much work, get the 200 mph.

Those speeds are not safe on any American road anyways.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: cavemanmoron
I think the first 200 mph "Stock car" was a 1969, Dodge Daytona;
second was the 1970 Plymouth Superbird.

:roll: What does that have to do with competing on a global scale?

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: cavemanmoron
I think the first 200 mph "Stock car" was a 1969, Dodge Daytona;
second was the 1970 Plymouth Superbird.

:roll: What does that have to do with competing on a global scale?

Originally posted by: JLGatsby
I'd like to compare top speeds of Euro cars with top speeds of those hillbilly American cars.

Euro cars would reign supreme every time. American cars just aren't built solid enough to sustain extreme speeds, that's why the rednecks who own them always put acceleration over topspeed. Who cares about acceleration.

Thats what. We were doing it in 1969 on a regular basis. Next.

I recall we also have the Salt Flats here in America where pretty much all the world's land speed records have been set and broken.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: cavemanmoron
I think the first 200 mph "Stock car" was a 1969, Dodge Daytona;
second was the 1970 Plymouth Superbird.

:roll: What does that have to do with competing on a global scale?

hey, idiot. It was the fastest car on the planet. Faster than any euro race car as well.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: cavemanmoron
I think the first 200 mph "Stock car" was a 1969, Dodge Daytona;
second was the 1970 Plymouth Superbird.

:roll: What does that have to do with competing on a global scale?

hey, idiot. It was the fastest car on the planet. Faster than any euro race car as well.

Well... that would be brittish. Sorry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrust_SSC

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
hey, idiot. It was the fastest car on the planet. Faster than any euro race car as well.

It was MODIFIED. Show me right off the lot. I promise if they would have heavily modified a Euro car, if would have gone faster.

And who cares about 1970? You must be a babyboomer, still living in the past. Get it together gramps! Who's the fastest now? Euros, both in production and modification!

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
hey, idiot. It was the fastest car on the planet. Faster than any euro race car as well.

It was MODIFIED. Show me right off the lot. I promise if they would have heavily modified a Euro car, if would have gone faster.

And who cares about 1970? You must be a babyboomer, still living in the past. Get it together gramps! Who's the fastest now? Euros, both in production and modification!

Yeah because you know every 3 series and C class is as fast as a MODIFIED 200+ mph supercar lol.

Dodge Viper: 190+ mph
Corvette Z06: 198+ mph
Ford GT: 212 mph
Saturn ION RedLine: 213 mph
Cobalt SS Supercharged: 243 mph
Saleen S7: 248 mph, drag limited
Ultimate Aero TT: 273 mph

Ferrari F50: 202 mph
Mercedes SLR: 207 mph
Lamborghini Murciélago: 205 mph
Ferrari Enzo: 219 mph
McLaren F1: 240 mph
Bugatti Veyron: 253 mph

You're complaining that a car built 1969 had to be slightly modified 38 years ago to be as fast as a factory 'modified' 2007 Mercedes SLR today? lol that speaks volumes, thanks.

Most of the American cars listed have greater production numbers than any of the European cars I might add. Notice not a whole lot from BMW or Mercedes on the list.

Reminds me of the planes of the west vs sovient union. They can brag about 100 plane designs they have that could out perform the F-15 on paper, and even build 2 or 3 for air shows to prove it and brag about it. The difference is we have hundreds of F-15s and they are real production planes, not test beds that will never see the light of day.

Speaking of planes, in case you didn't know our F-22 out performs the Eurofighter in real life air combat as well. Suck that Euroweenie =D

 

[fubar569]

Originally posted by: Black88GTA

Originally posted by: fubar569

Originally posted by: AdamK47 3DS
What do Americans know about making cars? I will never own an American car.

ignorance is bliss isn't it?

i'm not downing ALL OTHER car makes, but i'd rather support my own economy a bit rather than line the pockets of the next great german/italian/whatever car manufacturer. besides, we "stupid" americans know a fair bit more about automobiles than you think. Just remember, if it wasn't for Ransome Eli Olds and Henry Ford, your precious german auto assembly lines would never exist. They did pioneer that idea after all, and guess where They were from? that's right....the USA...

however, we all owe a thing or 2 to the french for once

The first car manufacturers in the world were French: Panhard & Levassor (1889) and Peugeot (1891).

didn't see that one coming did ya?

LMAO

(hint....check the cardomain link in his sig)

after further research, i take back my connents toward him, and instead direct them at that crazy old gatsby character or whatever his name is...lol

 

[piasabird]

Buy and drive what makes you happy. Almost all cars seem overpriced to me.

 

[SolMiester]

I like American muscle cars a lot, although its true they are a little over the top in looks and the interior is inferior to Euro cars.

Edit - but who ever accused the American's of having style?

 

[fubar569]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: Iron Woode
hey, idiot. It was the fastest car on the planet. Faster than any euro race car as well.

It was MODIFIED. Show me right off the lot. I promise if they would have heavily modified a Euro car, if would have gone faster.

And who cares about 1970? You must be a babyboomer, still living in the past. Get it together gramps! Who's the fastest now? Euros, both in production and modification!

Yeah because you know every 3 series and C class is as fast as a MODIFIED 200+ mph supercar lol.

Dodge Viper: 190+ mph
Corvette Z06: 198+ mph
Ford GT: 212 mph
Saturn ION RedLine: 213 mph
Cobalt SS Supercharged: 243 mph
Saleen S7: 248 mph, drag limited
Ultimate Aero TT: 273 mph

Ferrari F50: 202 mph
Mercedes SLR: 207 mph
Lamborghini Murciélago: 205 mph
Ferrari Enzo: 219 mph
McLaren F1: 240 mph
Bugatti Veyron: 253 mph

You're complaining that a car built 1969 had to be slightly modified 38 years ago to be as fast as a factory 'modified' 2007 Mercedes SLR today? lol that speaks volumes, thanks.

Most of the American cars listed have greater production numbers than any of the European cars I might add. Notice not a whole lot from BMW or Mercedes on the list.

Reminds me of the planes of the west vs sovient union. They can brag about 100 plane designs they have that could out perform the F-15 on paper, and even build 2 or 3 for air shows to prove it and brag about it. The difference is we have hundreds of F-15s and they are real production planes, not test beds that will never see the light of day.

Speaking of planes, in case you didn't know our F-22 out performs the Eurofighter in real life air combat as well. Suck that Euroweenie =D

i also believe they are undefeated in air to air combat...HOORAH!!