American Exceptionalism

[cwjerome]

The basic reason for this thread is to explore -in a reasonable, non-partisan way- how and why America is in many ways so different from other Westernized countries... and what does this difference mean now, and for the future?

So why is America increasingly the odd man out among rich nations?

I'll offer up some ideological food for thought, but basically, it's because the American default position on most issues falls to the Right of the default positions of other industrialized countries. And this is due to a synergetic combination of different underlying values (rooted in our unique history) and the clout of the conservative Right.

More later...

What say you?

 

[Genx87]

I'd say it is our basic form of govt. We have a much larger sense of individuality than you will find in many countries around the world. We also allowed much more freedoms of speech, expression, and the right to own guns.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I'd say it is our basic form of govt. We have a much larger sense of individuality than you will find in many countries around the world. We also allowed much more freedoms of speech, expression, and the right to own guns.

It wasn't all that long ago when France was busily taking control of her banks and large industrial companies and vastly expanding things like government payroll and spending while reducing the amount of time people had to work. Nowadays, Europeans have largely abandoned socialism, and now the main debate in Paris is how American the French economy should be. Compare Sweden of 1980-85 to Sweden today.

Does this influence serve a good purpose? Many people, myself included, have no qualms about pushing the US -and the world- further in what I regard as the American Direction.

 

[miketheidiot]

different political and economic histories, American's don't deal with the scars of the past like European and other countries do, and lead to people (in other countries) more willing to take interventionist policies to prevent and correct perceived wrongs. We have never dealt with disaster, oppression, and poverty on the scale that europe did, and basically got a start free of ancient baggage.

 

[techs]

The difference is that Americans have lost the sense of doing anything that is best for our country instead of for themselves.
Other Western democracies place real value on education as a benefit not just to the individual but to their country. In America we have a whole political party to fight against any "free" government assistance for education to individuals. We ask 18 year olds to take on crushing debt to go to college. While far poorer nations make it far easier to go to college. We fund education thru property taxes so for years we had well to do schools and failing schools. And woe to the politician who suggested pooling the money.
While it is true Europe went way overboard in attempting to cure every ill and improve every facet of life thru government, they have progressed to a centrist, pragmatic approach. Which is why they are turning out engineers and the US is turning out Target employees.
Europe understands that the free market cannot operate against a monoply like OPEC and the scarcity of a product that cannot readily be replaced. So they tax gasoline to promote conservation and help their countries balance of payments. The US citizen is willing to send our sons to die so we can have cheap gas. And to heck with our balance of payments. And there is a whole political party that shouts "tax cuts" as a cure to every ill and prevents any sensible taxation for the good of the nation.

So it really comes down to the fact that European countries have two parties that argue over the extent of government support for the advancement of their countries.
While in America you have one party that is ideologically opposed to any helping of the country if it aids an individual in any way. Our two party system is so diametrically opposed on these issues we can't act pragmatically.

 

[Lemon law]

I somewhat disagree on two points (1) By expansion---manafest destiny--The USA has grown coast to coast. Our Canadian and Mexican neighbors are no threats to us. And we have this illusion that we can do anything.

(2) Europe has a far longer history---and there is not a single nation in Europe that has not tasted the bitter dregs of defeat at one or more times in their history---and can't look back and see these defeats were due to the arrogance of their leadership--and no European nation is not surrounded by potentially hostile powers that could combine to threaten them. Many had former greatness as colonial powers---and these colonies are now forever lost. But Europe is cashing in on the peace dividend secure that the USA will keep the peace at no cost to them.

 

[yllus]

- Incredible and mostly unmatched access to natural resources (this point is huge)
- The blessing of a very strong codification of law and government, superior to most any other nation on the planet
- A population that's predominantly deeply religious and does not believe in moral relativism

 

[sierrita]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I somewhat disagree on two points (1) By expansion---manafest destiny--The USA has grown coast to coast. Our Canadian and Mexican neighbors are no threats to us. And we have this illusion that we can do anything.

(2) Europe has a far longer history---and there is not a single nation in Europe that has not tasted the bitter dregs of defeat at one or more times in their history---and can't look back and see these defeats were due to the arrogance of their leadership--and no European nation is not surrounded by potentially hostile powers that could combine to threaten them. Many had former greatness as colonial powers---and these colonies are now forever lost. But Europe is cashing in on the peace dividend secure that the USA will keep the peace at no cost
to them.

Well said.....untill the last sentence. I think Europe has lost much of the confidence it once had in the U.S. keeping peace, and views the present administration as a pre-emptive, de-stabilizing cowboy menace.

 

[jrenz]

Originally posted by: techs
Which is why they are turning out engineers and the US is turning out Target employees.

Come back to me when this is actually true.

 

[Canun]

Originally posted by: sierrita

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I somewhat disagree on two points (1) By expansion---manafest destiny--The USA has grown coast to coast. Our Canadian and Mexican neighbors are no threats to us. And we have this illusion that we can do anything.

(2) Europe has a far longer history---and there is not a single nation in Europe that has not tasted the bitter dregs of defeat at one or more times in their history---and can't look back and see these defeats were due to the arrogance of their leadership--and no European nation is not surrounded by potentially hostile powers that could combine to threaten them. Many had former greatness as colonial powers---and these colonies are now forever lost. But Europe is cashing in on the peace dividend secure that the USA will keep the peace at no cost
to them.

Well said.....untill the last sentence. I think Europe has lost much of the confidence it once had in the U.S. keeping peace, and views the present administration as a pre-emptive, de-stabilizing cowboy menace.

That isn't what he is saying. Look at all the UN peacekeeping missions. The core backbone of the UN security forces is the U.S.. Why aren't the other countries sending troops to Darfur, or helping out more in Afghanistan? They are waiting for the U.S., so they can send a complement of soldiers, but not set up the mission.

 

[cwjerome]

The poll indicates what we all already know... that most people around here believe the more conservative US should get more in line with the Europeans. America's exceptionalism is negative.

My question to those people: If the US did do that, what would the result be? A more powerful America?

The US and Europe have always been different but the end of the cold war has made these differences more noticeable. Although there is a convergence of sorts in some areas, America is very different on a number of major issues, from criminal justice to patriotism to religiousness. The US is more open to using force abroad. The US is much keener on business and risk. The US is much less willing to allow the state to try and solve society's problems.

The differences are getting more galling for non-Americans because suddenly we're the in your face superpower. I can truly understand that attitude... but it doesn't mean America's wrong.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

This I think sums it up nicely.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The poll indicates what we all already know... that most people around here believe the more conservative US should get more in line with the Europeans. America's exceptionalism is negative.

My question to those people: If the US did do that, what would the result be? A more powerful America?

The US and Europe have always been different but the end of the cold war has made these differences more noticeable. Although there is a convergence of sorts in some areas, America is very different on a number of major issues, from criminal justice to patriotism to religiousness. The US is more open to using force abroad. The US is much keener on business and risk. The US is much less willing to allow the state to try and solve society's problems.

The differences are getting more galling for non-Americans because suddenly we're the in your face superpower. I can truly understand that attitude... but it doesn't mean America's wrong.

I'll say the end of the cold war emphasizes the differences. End of the cold war, and we can more closely relate to Russia than we can Europe.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The differences are getting more galling for non-Americans because suddenly we're the in your face superpower. I can truly understand that attitude... but it doesn't mean America's wrong.

On that end of things, it's probably more of a, "Hey now that the Cold War is over and we don't need the U.S. to have our backs, we don't need to be nice to you anymore! Nyah nyah!"

 

[MrPALCO]

America is the seat of the Gospel and enjoys the favor of God because of it.

America stands tall far above all other Nations.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

My question to those people: If the US did do that, what would the result be? A more powerful America?

why does it matter? Need to wave your nation-peen around?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: MrPALCO
America is the seat of the Gospel and enjoys the favor of God because of it.

America stands tall far above all other Nations.

rofl

 

[martinez]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: MrPALCO
America is the seat of the Gospel and enjoys the favor of God because of it.

America stands tall far above all other Nations.

rofl

Indeed.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: MrPALCO
America is the seat of the Gospel and enjoys the favor of God because of it.

That's the kind of moronic thinking that got us into the our current mess, and it's as stupid as the hate filled bullsh8 spewed by Islamic fundy morons.

You are the proof that FUN-da-MENTAL-ists are neither. :thumbsdown: :frown: :thumbsdown:

 

[Kwaipie]

US: "Our way or the highway" If we are not the best at something, we'll spin it to appear the best. "We are the absolute masters at outsourcing technical jobs, try and outsource better than the US of A"

We are much like my 17 yr old. If he makes a mistake, he becomes very introspective and embarrassed. Rather than listen to options or solutions to his issues, he'd rather figure it out for himself, mostly to his disadvantage.

 

[Tom]

"The poll indicates what we all already know... that most people around here believe the more conservative US should get more in line with the Europeans. America's exceptionalism is negative. "

I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion. We aren't interested in being in line with the Europeans, we are interested in being more in line with our own principles.

 

[Stunt]

The key difference between the US and other nations is the "American Dream" which is alive and well even today.

In my eyes, the American Dream represents the limitless opportunities created by a free society.

Individual choices and motivation will determine the lifestyle you lead; what you contribute to society is proportional to what you get out. The American Dream could be not working and living in the bush, could be middle class with a family life, could be busting your hump to get the 6-figure salary. The American Dream is not meant to be riches for everyone but compensation for those who aspire to reach their dreams.

Add this culture and environment to a large population of ex-Europeans (always led high standards of living) and you have a superpower roughly 4 times larger than any other nation in the world. If Ireland had 300million people, it too would be of similar greatness to the US.

 

[Martin]

The only exceptionalism that matters is the combination of huge land, temperate climate and lots of people. Take a population-adjusted look at the US, and suddenly its no longer either exceptional nor anymore impressive than any number of other countries.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: cwjerome
The differences are getting more galling for non-Americans because suddenly we're the in your face superpower. I can truly understand that attitude... but it doesn't mean America's wrong.

On that end of things, it's probably more of a, "Hey now that the Cold War is over and we don't need the U.S. to have our backs, we don't need to be nice to you anymore! Nyah nyah!"

Yeah, I'll by into that. But there's another aspect.

The older generations were still in a sort of awe of Europe. We kinda half agreed when Harold Macmillan said Britain needed to play Greece to America's Rome. We were admirably sensitive to Europeans national pride, etc, and made every effort to cloak American power in multilateral matters (and make no mistake, cloaking was all it was).

Bottom line is, modern conservatism -and Americans in general- have no major inclination to continue that sort of nonsense. Things change... it's a new world.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Stunt
The key difference between the US and other nations is the "American Dream" which is alive and well even today.

the key is not some amorphous non-entity "american dream," the key is why do we believe in the idea of the "american dream;" and just as importantly, why others don't.

The answer is that we never had to deal with shortage and scarcity in any real amount, it is not part of our history and does not enter into our national consciousness. From the very beginning Americans were very well off economically, and due to its size and population, and distant from other powers, as well as its blessing in disguise of being a British colony, America never had to deal with defeat, or backwardness, or any other national hardship. We've fought wars, but never seen our country decimated in its wake, with one local exception, and this area still deals with the scars and is in many ways culturally distinct from the rest of the country.