American Muscle vs Japanese Muscle

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: SilverTorch

Skylines traction control (again from my understanding) is not traction control that RWD or FWD cars have, where the the brakes are applied or engine is slowed down, but where the power is transfered to the wheels that have grip vs ones that are not. I dont see how the car would not preform better.

Again for the trolls ... this is not a flamewar.

Traction control is a safety feature, not a performance feature. If you can drive a car close to its limit without traction control engaging, it will perform better than if the traction control kicks in.

 

[ArjSiv]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: bR


You mentioned F1 earlier, as if to say that if F1 had an alternative they would not go with higher revving engine.

Another poster brought up liking high revving engines because he likes F1 cars.

I stated that they would not use the higher revving engine if they didn't have to due to rules. Besides, this is a discussion about road cars and we don't have any displacement/induction restrictions. Forget about that stuff. Stick to the topic at hand- road cars.

1:
If you're going to refer to something that was posted, at least refer to what I actually said. I like F1 ENGINES.

I like how they are able to rev so high despite so many engineering hurdles with having to rev so high ( like the mechanics of opening/closing valves and the transmission itself ).

I think it takes a lot of engineering to be able to make such power out of a relatively small engine without any forced induction and have the engines still be relatively relaible for what they face. Yeah these engines only last two or so races but that's quite a feat considering they way they are used.

Having a larger, lower revving engine is much easier to engineer.

2
Sure, you could drop in a larger engine into a car, but with a large engine, you get weight. Perhaps you haven't learnt basic physics, but weight = bad. You know, there's a reason why the fastest road-legal supercars rev relatively high compared to your regular family car.

And these are road cards, but they are sports cars as well. The torque bands aren't that bad on these japanese cars either, but japanese sports cars are genearlly built to rev higher, partly because of the weight advantage and also to the appeal.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: ArjSiv

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: bR


You mentioned F1 earlier, as if to say that if F1 had an alternative they would not go with higher revving engine.

Another poster brought up liking high revving engines because he likes F1 cars.

I stated that they would not use the higher revving engine if they didn't have to due to rules. Besides, this is a discussion about road cars and we don't have any displacement/induction restrictions. Forget about that stuff. Stick to the topic at hand- road cars.

1:
If you're going to refer to something that was posted, at least refer to what I actually said. I like F1 ENGINES.

I like how they are able to rev so high despite so many engineering hurdles with having to rev so high ( like the mechanics of opening/closing valves and the transmission itself ).

I think it takes a lot of engineering to be able to make such power out of a relatively small engine without any forced induction and have the engines still be relatively relaible for what they face. Yeah these engines only last two or so races but that's quite a feat considering they way they are used.

Having a larger, lower revving engine is much easier to engineer.

2
Sure, you could drop in a larger engine into a car, but with a large engine, you get weight. Perhaps you haven't learnt basic physics, but weight = bad. You know, there's a reason why the fastest road-legal supercars rev relatively high compared to your regular family car.

And these are road cards, but they are sports cars as well. The torque bands aren't that bad on these japanese cars either, but japanese sports cars are genearlly built to rev higher, partly because of the weight advantage and also to the appeal.

I love it how the kiddies on these forums talk so much crap but can't back any of it up. What do you drive, smart guy? Do you have a F1 engine in your car? Turbocharged engine? supercharged? big displacement? Or do you drive a lame ass 4 banger with a fart can and pretend that you have a sports car?

And how old are you? 19? LOL

You remind me of the ricers who pull up next to me with a Corolla and a Civic and try to race me. Then they proceed to tell me that their friend knows a guy whose roomate's brother owns a xxxx that will kill my car, as if I'm impressed by that or something.

Every boyracer wants a car that revs high, yet doesn't understand the concepts of HP, Torque, or usable powerband. All they spout is useless nonsense like "power per liter". A real engineer doesn't make life difficult for himself. They do things for a purpose.

 

[geno]

Ah! What's with the brand new GM's vs the pre-98 Imports? Can we get a Cobra in there too or is it GM vs Various Japanese cars?

 

[dawheat]

Originally posted by: ArjSiv

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: bR


You mentioned F1 earlier, as if to say that if F1 had an alternative they would not go with higher revving engine.

Another poster brought up liking high revving engines because he likes F1 cars.

I stated that they would not use the higher revving engine if they didn't have to due to rules. Besides, this is a discussion about road cars and we don't have any displacement/induction restrictions. Forget about that stuff. Stick to the topic at hand- road cars.

1:
If you're going to refer to something that was posted, at least refer to what I actually said. I like F1 ENGINES.

I like how they are able to rev so high despite so many engineering hurdles with having to rev so high ( like the mechanics of opening/closing valves and the transmission itself ).

I think it takes a lot of engineering to be able to make such power out of a relatively small engine without any forced induction and have the engines still be relatively relaible for what they face. Yeah these engines only last two or so races but that's quite a feat considering they way they are used.

Having a larger, lower revving engine is much easier to engineer.

2
Sure, you could drop in a larger engine into a car, but with a large engine, you get weight. Perhaps you haven't learnt basic physics, but weight = bad. You know, there's a reason why the fastest road-legal supercars rev relatively high compared to your regular family car.

And these are road cards, but they are sports cars as well. The torque bands aren't that bad on these japanese cars either, but japanese sports cars are genearlly built to rev higher, partly because of the weight advantage and also to the appeal.

Without engine restrictions in F1, we'd likely see reasonably small displacement, very high revving, forced induction engines. Small size allowing the tightest rear packaging along with the lowest COG possible would need to be balanced with peak HP. As an overall package, a 7L V-8 would cause huge issues.

Regardless, since none of our cars really use F1 technology, it doesn't matter in this discussion.

I'd guess that the latest year RX-7s (2000?) in Japan or the NSX-R would be the best handling cars in that group. Around a road course I'd guess the NSX-R or Z06 would be the quickest- anyone know how factory package Skylines do on the track? They're pretty heavy so I'd expect them to be very hard on their tires and brakes.

 

[geno]

Originally posted by: SilverTorch

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: SilverTorch

To a certain degree? The Z06 will easily outhandle everything on that list.

Please a RWD car vs. AWD car with 4 wheel steering and computer controlled diffs?

Its like saying a Neon SRT4 will out handle a WRX

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, so you should probably exit this thread. 4WD does not improve handing. Educate yourself to discover why.

and why doesn't it?[/quote]

91TTZ is right, it merely makes the car more stable in hard corners, but RWD is better for handling than AWD

 

[ArjSiv]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: ArjSiv

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: bR


You mentioned F1 earlier, as if to say that if F1 had an alternative they would not go with higher revving engine.

Another poster brought up liking high revving engines because he likes F1 cars.

I stated that they would not use the higher revving engine if they didn't have to due to rules. Besides, this is a discussion about road cars and we don't have any displacement/induction restrictions. Forget about that stuff. Stick to the topic at hand- road cars.

1:
If you're going to refer to something that was posted, at least refer to what I actually said. I like F1 ENGINES.

I like how they are able to rev so high despite so many engineering hurdles with having to rev so high ( like the mechanics of opening/closing valves and the transmission itself ).

I think it takes a lot of engineering to be able to make such power out of a relatively small engine without any forced induction and have the engines still be relatively relaible for what they face. Yeah these engines only last two or so races but that's quite a feat considering they way they are used.

Having a larger, lower revving engine is much easier to engineer.

2
Sure, you could drop in a larger engine into a car, but with a large engine, you get weight. Perhaps you haven't learnt basic physics, but weight = bad. You know, there's a reason why the fastest road-legal supercars rev relatively high compared to your regular family car.

And these are road cards, but they are sports cars as well. The torque bands aren't that bad on these japanese cars either, but japanese sports cars are genearlly built to rev higher, partly because of the weight advantage and also to the appeal.

I love it how the kiddies on these forums talk so much crap but can't back any of it up. What do you drive, smart guy? Do you have a F1 engine in your car? Turbocharged engine? supercharged? big displacement? Or do you drive a lame ass 4 banger with a fart can and pretend that you have a sports car?

And how old are you? 19? LOL

You remind me of the ricers who pull up next to me with a Corolla and a Civic and try to race me. Then they proceed to tell me that their friend knows a guy whose roomate's brother owns a xxxx that will kill my car, as if I'm impressed by that or something.

Every boyracer wants a car that revs high, yet doesn't understand the concepts of HP, Torque, or usable powerband. All they spout is useless nonsense like "power per liter". A real engineer doesn't make life difficult for himself. They do things for a purpose.

Ok.. I'll bite.

So, instead of rebutting my arguments, you make personal attacks and I'm supposed to be the immature rice boy? I joined this forum a few days ago, you don't know me, but automatically you label me as a 19 year old rice boy?

No, I don't have an F1 car. I didn't realize that I actually had have ownership of something to admire it.

In addition, you seem to know nothing about true engineering. If "a real engineer doesn't make life difficult for himself", all buildings would be less than 5 floors high, the most powerful computer today would be the equivilent to a 486 and there wouldn't be this wonderful thing we call the "internet".

I know what I'm talking about, I know the physics behind it, I've read all of the books and I spent a summer volunteering for a buddy that owns a tuner shop.

And in case you were wondering, I don't have a car of my own, I'm a student, I live near campus, I have no need for it, and besides all my money goes towards tuition so that one day, people like me will put people like you out of a job.

I know your response to this is going to be a flame, so I'm not going to bother reading this thread.

 

[ArjSiv]

Originally posted by: dawheat

Originally posted by: ArjSiv

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: bR


You mentioned F1 earlier, as if to say that if F1 had an alternative they would not go with higher revving engine.

Another poster brought up liking high revving engines because he likes F1 cars.

I stated that they would not use the higher revving engine if they didn't have to due to rules. Besides, this is a discussion about road cars and we don't have any displacement/induction restrictions. Forget about that stuff. Stick to the topic at hand- road cars.

1:
If you're going to refer to something that was posted, at least refer to what I actually said. I like F1 ENGINES.

I like how they are able to rev so high despite so many engineering hurdles with having to rev so high ( like the mechanics of opening/closing valves and the transmission itself ).

I think it takes a lot of engineering to be able to make such power out of a relatively small engine without any forced induction and have the engines still be relatively relaible for what they face. Yeah these engines only last two or so races but that's quite a feat considering they way they are used.

Having a larger, lower revving engine is much easier to engineer.

2
Sure, you could drop in a larger engine into a car, but with a large engine, you get weight. Perhaps you haven't learnt basic physics, but weight = bad. You know, there's a reason why the fastest road-legal supercars rev relatively high compared to your regular family car.

And these are road cards, but they are sports cars as well. The torque bands aren't that bad on these japanese cars either, but japanese sports cars are genearlly built to rev higher, partly because of the weight advantage and also to the appeal.

Without engine restrictions in F1, we'd likely see reasonably small displacement, very high revving, forced induction engines. Small size allowing the tightest rear packaging along with the lowest COG possible would need to be balanced with peak HP. As an overall package, a 7L V-8 would cause huge issues.

Regardless, since none of our cars really use F1 technology, it doesn't matter in this discussion.

I'd guess that the latest year RX-7s (2000?) in Japan or the NSX-R would be the best handling cars in that group. Around a road course I'd guess the NSX-R or Z06 would be the quickest- anyone know how factory package Skylines do on the track? They're pretty heavy so I'd expect them to be very hard on their tires and brakes.

Actually, you'd be surprised how much F1/racing technology makes it onto road cars. The cam technology used in racing a long time ago has made its way into regular road cars like the Camry. Very much of the newer technology for performance is "tested out" on the race track, and there are adaptations made to it so it could improve the performance and even economy ( hey, a pit stop is expensive! ) of street legal cars

 

[Fenixgoon]

*USA* *USA*

frankly, i'll take any super car

 

[EvilYoda]

That second picture is just drop dead gorgeous...one of the people that work on those cars posts on ls1gto.com, I saw the pic a while back. unf.

Don't get me wrong, I loves the imports too...the picture just isn't quite as inspiring

 

I love it how the kiddies on these forums talk so much crap but can't back any of it up. What do you drive, smart guy? Do you have a F1 engine in your car? Turbocharged engine? supercharged? big displacement? Or do you drive a lame ass 4 banger with a fart can and pretend that you have a sports car?

And how old are you? 19? LOL

You remind me of the ricers who pull up next to me with a Corolla and a Civic and try to race me. Then they proceed to tell me that their friend knows a guy whose roomate's brother owns a xxxx that will kill my car, as if I'm impressed by that or something.

Every boyracer wants a car that revs high, yet doesn't understand the concepts of HP, Torque, or usable powerband. All they spout is useless nonsense like "power per liter". A real engineer doesn't make life difficult for himself. They do things for a purpose.

It's posts like this that make you look like a fool.

You arn't addressing his post, just acting like the typical "I own a fast car, so you are a moron and know nothing". The points he brought up are very valid, yet you dismiss them. You're immediatly putting him in the "ignorant boy ricer" category because he doesn't agree with you. You can just as easily be categorized.

I'm not trying to attack you, but don't come down on someone like you're the end all be all of car knowledge. So you own a fast car that you probably bolted together yourself with parts made specifically for it. That doesn't mean you understand the engineering behind engines, or racing. You disagreed with people who made valid points about having a lightweight, high revving engine. Then you went and made some ego boosting comment about how kiddies roll up to you and try to race you. What the hell does that have to do with anything posted in this thread ever? You just assumed the riceboy position. Congratulations.

 

[Brutuskend]

There's Japanese Muscle now?

Some of them may be FAST, but that doesn't necessarily make them muscle as far as I'm concerned.

 

[audi]

Originally posted by: SampSon

I love it how the kiddies on these forums talk so much crap but can't back any of it up. What do you drive, smart guy? Do you have a F1 engine in your car? Turbocharged engine? supercharged? big displacement? Or do you drive a lame ass 4 banger with a fart can and pretend that you have a sports car?

And how old are you? 19? LOL

You remind me of the ricers who pull up next to me with a Corolla and a Civic and try to race me. Then they proceed to tell me that their friend knows a guy whose roomate's brother owns a xxxx that will kill my car, as if I'm impressed by that or something.

Every boyracer wants a car that revs high, yet doesn't understand the concepts of HP, Torque, or usable powerband. All they spout is useless nonsense like "power per liter". A real engineer doesn't make life difficult for himself. They do things for a purpose.

It's posts like this that make you look like a fool.

You arn't addressing his post, just acting like the typical "I own a fast car, so you are a moron and know nothing". The points he brought up are very valid, yet you dismiss them. You're immediatly putting him in the "ignorant boy ricer" category because he doesn't agree with you. You can just as easily be categorized.

I'm not trying to attack you, but don't come down on someone like you're the end all be all of car knowledge. So you own a fast car that you probably bolted together yourself with parts made specifically for it. That doesn't mean you understand the engineering behind engines, or racing. You disagreed with people who made valid points about having a lightweight, high revving engine. Then you went and made some ego boosting comment about how kiddies roll up to you and try to race you. What the hell does that have to do with anything posted in this thread ever? You just assumed the riceboy position. Congratulations.

F'd in the A.

 

[91TTZ]

Edit: post has been nice-a-fied

:thumbsup::beer:

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: SampSon

You arn't addressing his post, just acting like the typical "I own a fast car, so you are a moron and know nothing". The points he brought up are very valid, yet you dismiss them. You're immediatly putting him in the "ignorant boy ricer" category because he doesn't agree with you. You can just as easily be categorized.

If you were in my shoes you'd see where I'm coming from. I frequent car forums and talk about technical topics all day. And every day we get some noob coming onto the forum that hasn't yet learned the basics and is naive enough to challenge the veterans of the forum about simple things which have already been beaten to death ages ago. And after we put forth the effort to teach them we get a new batch of noobs and the process repeats. It gets tiresome.

Sorry if I come off like an ass but my patience is already worn thin. I've seen this a thousand times before. I could already tell he was young just by the reasoning he used, and I could also tell that he didn't have any experience with cars. How did I know this? because I've seen it many times before, and it's like watching re-runs of an episode that you've already seen a hundred times. After a while you get tired of going through the same motions.

If the poster wants to ask me questions so I could share my experience, I'd help. But when he's just going to challenge me on basics, of course I'm not going to have much patience.

 

[PHiuR]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: SampSon

You arn't addressing his post, just acting like the typical "I own a fast car, so you are a moron and know nothing". The points he brought up are very valid, yet you dismiss them. You're immediatly putting him in the "ignorant boy ricer" category because he doesn't agree with you. You can just as easily be categorized.

If you were in my shoes you'd see where I'm coming from. I frequent car forums and talk about technical topics all day. And every day we get some noob coming onto the forum that hasn't yet learned the basics and is naive enough to challenge the veterans of the forum about simple things which have already been beaten to death ages ago. And after we put forth the effort to teach them we get a new batch of noobs and the process repeats. It gets tiresome.

Sorry if I come off like an ass but my patience is already worn thin. I've seen this a thousand times before. I could already tell he was young just by the reasoning he used, and I could also tell that he didn't have any experience with cars. How did I know this? because I've seen it many times before, and it's like watching re-runs of an episode that you've already seen a hundred times.

man...in your other post a couple weeks ago, i agreed with everything you said - putting that one guy down about his car/ friends car...civic or something i dont remember.

but this post u flamed the poor guy for no reason.

:thumbsdown:

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: PHiuR

man...in your other post a couple weeks ago, i agreed with everything you said - putting that one guy down about his car/ friends car...civic or something i dont remember.

but this post u flamed the poor guy for no reason.

:thumbsdown:

I flamed him because he's in the same boat as that other guy... complete noobs who have the nerve to try to bullshit people with more experience. I don't see him as a nice, poor, innocent guy, I see him as a punk ass who wants to argue with me. When I go to the dragstrip and talk to the veterans there, my ears are open, and I listen to what they have to say since they already know the answers that I'm looking for.

I've gone down this same beaten path so many times before that I'm just tired of it. I'm sick of clueless noobs who don't care to learn and instead want to argue with me.

Like I said before, if he's willing to listen I'd help him out, but he doesn't seem intent on listening.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: SampSon

You arn't addressing his post, just acting like the typical "I own a fast car, so you are a moron and know nothing". The points he brought up are very valid, yet you dismiss them. You're immediatly putting him in the "ignorant boy ricer" category because he doesn't agree with you. You can just as easily be categorized.

If you were in my shoes you'd see where I'm coming from. I frequent car forums and talk about technical topics all day. And every day we get some noob coming onto the forum that hasn't yet learned the basics and is naive enough to challenge the veterans of the forum about simple things which have already been beaten to death ages ago. And after we put forth the effort to teach them we get a new batch of noobs and the process repeats. It gets tiresome.

Sorry if I come off like an ass but my patience is already worn thin. I've seen this a thousand times before. I could already tell he was young just by the reasoning he used, and I could also tell that he didn't have any experience with cars. How did I know this? because I've seen it many times before, and it's like watching re-runs of an episode that you've already seen a hundred times. After a while you get tired of going through the same motions.

If the poster wants to ask me questions so I could share my experience, I'd help. But when he's just going to challenge me on basics, of course I'm not going to have much patience.

Not to continue the flaming, but I was a complete dick in the thread with the electricity question, and you ripped me a new asshole for it. Granted, I fully deserved it, but my excuse was similar to yours: its the kind of topic I deal with daily and it pissed me off to no end to see everyone with an opinion posting away, without really knowing what they were talking about. It doesn't mean that you're justified in smacking down people that you deem below your intelligence.

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Not to continue the flaming, but I was a complete dick in the thread with the electricity question, and you ripped me a new asshole for it. Granted, I fully deserved it, but my excuse was similar to yours: its the kind of topic I deal with daily and it pissed me off to no end to see everyone with an opinion posting away, without really knowing what they were talking about. It doesn't mean that you're justified in smacking down people that you deem below your intelligence.

It's ok, I value your opinion. In that other thread I understood what you said when you said you were just tired of dealing with the same thing. Of course nobody likes getting yelled at but I did see your point. In that case I was the noob who walked in with the wrong answer. But at least I didn't tell you that you were wrong about the answer that you gave (about the potentials/ground/etc).

 

[91TTZ]

By the way- I have a short temper but I don't hold grudges. If you guys notice I can be pissed at someone in one thread and be cool in another 20 mins later. It's not like I keep a hitlist in C:\Documents and Settings\91TTZ\My Documents\hitlist.txt

oops!

 

[ribbon13]

American muscle == M1A1.

 

[TheLonelyPhoenix]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: TheLonelyPhoenix

Not to continue the flaming, but I was a complete dick in the thread with the electricity question, and you ripped me a new asshole for it. Granted, I fully deserved it, but my excuse was similar to yours: its the kind of topic I deal with daily and it pissed me off to no end to see everyone with an opinion posting away, without really knowing what they were talking about. It doesn't mean that you're justified in smacking down people that you deem below your intelligence.

It's ok, I value your opinion. In that other thread I understood what you said when you said you were just tired of dealing with the same thing. Of course nobody likes getting yelled at but I did see your point. In that case I was the noob who walked in with the wrong answer. But at least I didn't tell you that you were wrong about the answer that you gave (about the potentials/ground/etc).

Yeah, but you can't make someone learn or respect your knowledge. They'll either listen and argue calmly, or they won't. If someone wants to insist on the wrong answer and won't debate it rationally or support their argument, its usually best to move on.

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
By the way- I have a short temper but I don't hold grudges. If you guys notice I can be pissed at someone in one thread and be cool in another 20 mins later. It's not like I keep a hitlist in C:\Documents and Settings\91TTZ\My Documents\hitlist.txt

oops!

 

[Corporate Thug]

i dont like american cars but they look so much more intimidating than japanese cars

 

[91TTZ]

As far as this thread goes, I own a Japanese car but I can respect American engineering. Modern American V8's like the LS1, LS2, LS6, and LS7 are absolutely fantastic. I don't think people realize just how efficient and effective they are. They bash them for using pushrods, but fail to see the benefits of pushrods- they make for a smaller, lighter, more compact engine.

An engine like the Skyline's RB26DETT gets a lot of credit and people think it's smaller and lighter than a 6 liter V8 like the LS2. It's not. People see 2.6 liters and assume that a 6 liter engine must be twice as heavy. Displacement is determined by space in the cylinders, and holes don't weigh anything. The LS6 is lighter than the RB. It's probably lighter than my VG30DETT, which is actually a very large engine.

 

Originally posted by: 91TTZ

Originally posted by: SampSon

You arn't addressing his post, just acting like the typical "I own a fast car, so you are a moron and know nothing". The points he brought up are very valid, yet you dismiss them. You're immediatly putting him in the "ignorant boy ricer" category because he doesn't agree with you. You can just as easily be categorized.

If you were in my shoes you'd see where I'm coming from. I frequent car forums and talk about technical topics all day. And every day we get some noob coming onto the forum that hasn't yet learned the basics and is naive enough to challenge the veterans of the forum about simple things which have already been beaten to death ages ago. And after we put forth the effort to teach them we get a new batch of noobs and the process repeats. It gets tiresome.

Sorry if I come off like an ass but my patience is already worn thin. I've seen this a thousand times before. I could already tell he was young just by the reasoning he used, and I could also tell that he didn't have any experience with cars. How did I know this? because I've seen it many times before, and it's like watching re-runs of an episode that you've already seen a hundred times. After a while you get tired of going through the same motions.

If the poster wants to ask me questions so I could share my experience, I'd help. But when he's just going to challenge me on basics, of course I'm not going to have much patience.

I'm active on a number of subaru forums, so I see it all the time. The extremely knowledgeable guys there arn't half the cock you are. You're just playing the same act as every other stuck up wanna be professional racer/modder/whatever race guy. It's an act that really gets no respect. Instead of backing up anything you say, you just flame him. Really, you're no better than him.

It still doesn't excuse you from ignoring the benefits of extremely lightweight, high revving race engines. Someone IS challenging you on the basics and you are not responding with anything serious at all. As time goes on and technology improves, engines get smaller, lighter and more efficient. This would happen regardless of rules/regulations imposed upon the teams.

I could go on but there really is no point. You'll continue to be a typical car weenie, and I'll continue to flame you.