American politics

[GDT]

This is definatly not meant as a troll/flame thread.

Right thats out of the way so on with my question.
I've lurked on this and many other forums and Americans just cant seem to talk about party politics without getting really emotional.
I've met lots of Americans in real life and without exeption they have all been the most polite, well mannered people you could wish to meet, but the second you disagree with their politics it gets really uncomfortable.
I can discus politics with just about anyone in europe and they dont take it personally (we all realise that polititions have their own interests fist and if that coincides with yours then your lucky) but you lot over the pond seem so divided on party lines that you cant seem to talk about anyting without it desending into a slanging match.
So is it just an internet/media thing or does it carry over into real life? And if so why?

As I said at the beginning this wasnt meant to insult anyone so please dont take it that way.
While lots of people in europe may disagree with your political views we also disagree with each others!

 

[Hossenfeffer]

I don't really do much discussion outside of this forum, but I've seen people that get fired up.

 

[alchemize]

It's an internet thing.

 

[stevn]

europeans are the same way, some like the french and germans are even worse than most americans.

im american, live in norway, have lived in berlin.

 

[Isla]

In general, people tend to become ego invested in what they think.

In otherwords, what they think makes them. And to some, what they think, they think makes them superior.

So what ends up happening is that people defend something that they think rather than analyzing it more carefully, because they ALREADY made an investment in being associated with a certain ideology.

 

[GDT]

Originally posted by: stevn
europeans are the same way, some like the french and germans are even worse than most americans.

im american, live in norway, have lived in berlin.

I've never had a french person call me anti french or unfrench because I criticised Chirac. Likewise with germans and Schroeder.

 

[Fingolfin269]

It's an internet thing. If you think that most people would talk to people irl the way they do here... let's just say it would lead to a need for more prison space and national health care.

 

[CanOWorms]

I've asked the same thing about Europeans, lol. Europeans on this forum are extremely touchy. Post an article bad about Europe? You're anti-European or you hate Europe or you're racist against Europeans (i like how people make up fake races)! They take anything said about their government's policies as personal insults. The only Europeans that will discuss things normally are people from the Netherlands - that's it.

I think it's just an internet thing with everyone - Americans, Canadians, Europeans, etc.

 

[GDT]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
It's an internet thing. If you think that most people would talk to people irl the way they do here... let's just say it would lead to a need for more prison space and national health care.

But why bother talking politics if your not open to what the other person is saying. The whole point of debate is the exchange of ideas surely? Otherwise its just empty point scoring and its far too important a subject for that, after all your political views influence the way in which you see the world.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: GDT

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
It's an internet thing. If you think that most people would talk to people irl the way they do here... let's just say it would lead to a need for more prison space and national health care.

But why bother talking politics if your not open to what the other person is saying. The whole point of debate is the exchange of ideas surely? Otherwise its just empty point scoring and its far too important a subject for that, after all your political views influence the way in which you see the world.

That statement makes sense when you're talking about open minded moderates. The problem is that a lot of people on internet forums are not moderate... or at least their internet 'personas' are not moderate.

 

[Perknose]

In my particular personal experience, anecdotal though it is, we have a much higher proportion of belligerantly militant nationalists here in the US than any of the European countries. Also, I found the Europeans I met to be much better informed politically than the average American, on the whole.

I've spent nearly five years living in Europe, all told.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: GDT

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
It's an internet thing. If you think that most people would talk to people irl the way they do here... let's just say it would lead to a need for more prison space and national health care.

But why bother talking politics if your not open to what the other person is saying. The whole point of debate is the exchange of ideas surely? Otherwise its just empty point scoring and its far too important a subject for that, after all your political views influence the way in which you see the world.

That statement makes sense when you're talking about open minded moderates. The problem is that a lot of people on internet forums are not moderate... or at least their internet 'personas' are not moderate.

Exactly, and the problem here online is that it's all to easy to become completely biased one way or the other because there is no danger of confronting actual live people. I'll admitt I myself have fallen into that trap................not so much in political discussions, but, in technical/hardware related discussions or other non-political discussions............

 

[GDT]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269

Originally posted by: GDT

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
It's an internet thing. If you think that most people would talk to people irl the way they do here... let's just say it would lead to a need for more prison space and national health care.

But why bother talking politics if your not open to what the other person is saying. The whole point of debate is the exchange of ideas surely? Otherwise its just empty point scoring and its far too important a subject for that, after all your political views influence the way in which you see the world.

That statement makes sense when you're talking about open minded moderates. The problem is that a lot of people on internet forums are not moderate... or at least their internet 'personas' are not moderate.

True I find it slightly depressing that people dont feel the need to be polite to their fellow man when their fellow man cant smack them in the chops! I really hope its not the potential for violence that keeps people polite!

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Perknose
In my particular personal experience, anecdotal though it is, we have a much higher proportion of belligerantly militant nationalists here in the US than any of the European countries. Also, I found the Europeans I met to be much better informed politically than the average American, on the whole.

I've spent nearly five years living in Europe, all told.

Things must have changed since the early/mid 80's then.........I spent 7 years in Germany at that time and most people there were more worried about the US/Soviet politics than their own and knew little about either except that they wanted Germany unified.......which was cool........but, at that time most of the people we ran into thought of Ronny Raygun as some sort of God...........

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: GDT
I really hope its not the potential for violence that keeps people polite!

I always thought that was Miss Manners hidden secret.

 

[jackschmittusa]

n general, people tend to become ego invested in what they think.

In otherwords, what they think makes them. And to some, what they think, they think makes them superior.

So what ends up happening is that people defend something that they think rather than analyzing it more carefully, because they ALREADY made an investment in being associated with a certain ideology.

I agree with Isla that there is at least a class of people who wear their religeous and political affiliations (often, one is meerly a different facet of the other) like a badge. This not only relieves them of the necessity of defining themselves through action or argument, but also creates (in their minds at least) an impression of being on unassailable moral high ground.

There are others (like one of my daughters-in-law) who value 1 or 2 items in a platform so highly that no amount of good ideas from the other side could ever outweigh them or any number of failures from her side lessen her support for them. My wife adamantly discourages my starting any political discussions with her as she quickly becomes quite agitated.

As for the "with us or against us", "supplying aid and comfort to the enemy", "traitor", "un-American" name calling, this, while not completely new, is now used regularly to stiffle dissenting voices, and has been learned from our current, esteemed leaders. I view it as discusting, and hope it will be un-learned soon.

 

[myusername]

Honest question: Have any European leaderships shown such a gross disdain for science, reason, and logic as the current government of the US?

To bring Hitler into it - sure, he was absolutely bonkers and would have orgasmed at witchcraft powered airplanes - and spent the R&D on it too, but the Germans *did* develop the first jet aircraft. For chrissakes, our surgeon general thinks women should "pray" to ward of PMS.

I personally don't think it is just an internet thing. [insert vapid threats involving axes and right wingers]. It's funny, because psychologically, I fit the pathology of a right wing nut job, except I hate right wingers with a passion that most people would reserve for someone who molested their children.

Assuming that it is more widespread than my own personal psychoses, I can think of two easy answers.

First, do not rule out the importance of Manifest Destiny. For two centuries, our culture has been built around the desire and ability (even if it is partially mythical) to counter adversity by expanding - generally over an existing culture - into new and uncharted territory. Not only has this become impossible geographically, but because of telecommunications, it also cannot happen on a psychological or intellectual level.

Your question in reverse would be: Why do Europeans not have a "road trip" genre in film and literature.

The second thought I have is that we are still a young country. I'd develop that further, but I really have nothing to say that hasn't been said before, couldn't be said better by someone else on this very forum, wouldn't be mocked by another, or would even slightly enhance discourse on the subject.

 

[GDT]

I can understand it with religion, after all if you subscribe to a religion then your following a 'higher power' aand this would preclude questioning it, but I really hope no one thinks of their polititions like that!

 

[GDT]

Originally posted by: myusername
Honest question: Have any European leaderships shown such a gross disdain for science, reason, and logic as the current government of the US?

To bring Hitler into it - sure, he was absolutely bonkers and would have orgasmed at witchcraft powered airplanes - and spent the R&D on it too, but the Germans *did* develop the first jet aircraft. For chrissakes, our surgeon general thinks women should "pray" to ward of PMS.

I personally don't think it is just an internet thing. [insert vapid threats involving axes and right wingers]. It's funny, because psychologically, I fit the pathology of a right wing nut job, except I hate right wingers with a passion that most people would reserve for someone who molested their children.

Assuming that it is more widespread than my own personal psychoses, I can think of two easy answers.

First, do not rule out the importance of Manifest Destiny. For two centuries, our culture has been built around the desire and ability (even if it is partially mythical) to counter adversity by expanding - generally over an existing culture - into new and uncharted territory. Not only has this become impossible geographically, but because of telecommunications, it also cannot happen on a psychological or intellectual level.

Your question in reverse would be: Why do Europeans not have a "road trip" genre in film and literature.

The second thought I have is that we are still a young country. I'd develop that further, but I really have nothing to say that hasn't been said before, couldn't be said better by someone else on this very forum, wouldn't be mocked by another, or would even slightly enhance discourse on the subject.

We europeans have definatly had our share of 'dodgy' leaders,

Hitler,Mussolini,franco,salazar,thatcher etc

It may be because of this that we have an inate distrust of polititions and generally use the bullshit filter when they speak

 

[ToBeMe]

As for the "with us or against us", "supplying aid and comfort to the enemy", "traitor", "un-American" name calling, this, while not completely new, is now used regularly to stiffle dissenting voices, and has been learned from our current, esteemed leaders. I view it as discusting, and hope it will be un-learned soon.

In all honesty.................the "with us or against us" and most of the others quoted go back to at least the civil war era and has been repeated by nearly every president since at some point................Americans, at least some, throughout history have been very vocal about defending what they believe politically especially during tense times like the Civil war, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf, and now this................remember "Don't Tread On me".....................that even predates the Civil war!

 

[Perknose]

Part of our easy adherence to belligerance as political policy stems from the fact that we have not suffered the true horrors of war on our own soil since the Civil War, which was physically fought in only a few states at that, and 140 years ago.

In France, squads still unearth hundreds of tons of mines and other unexploded munitions from WWI every year. That's WWI, not WWII.

Europeans know the full effects of war firsthand. It tempers them.

 

[GDT]

Originally posted by: Perknose
Part of our easy adherence to belligerance as political policy stems from the fact that we have not suffered the true horrors of war on our own soil since the Civil War, which was physically fought in only a few states at that, and 140 years ago.

In France, squads still unearth hundreds of tons of mines and other unexploded munitions from WWI every year. That's WWI, not WWII.

Europeans know the full effects of war firsthand. It tempers them.

And there are many people living in europe that can remember living under dictators. Salazar in portugal was deposed in about 1977 (its late im on the brandy and i cant be bothered to check).

Anyway I'll lift my last glass of the night to wishing you all the best.

MMMmmmm macieira!

(we euros definatly have the best drinks )
Night all