American women and men: NOT made for each other?

[alien42]

Originally posted by: Jero

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

if everything is so "equal" then why don't women approach men like men approach women? an attractive woman can walk into a bar and get laid by just about any man in that bar without picking up a finger or spending a dime but a man can't walk into a bar and get laid without putting out some serious effort, money, and a bit of luck.

for those women....

they want their cake and eat it too.

amen

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

if everything is so "equal" then why don't women approach men like men approach women? an attractive woman can walk into a bar and get laid by just about any man in that bar without picking up a finger or spending a dime but a man can't walk into a bar and get laid without putting out some serious effort, money, and a bit of luck.

Ok, so men aren't equal...
hahaha!! sorry, j/k

Perhaps it is because most women arent intrested in getting laid so easily. Not to say that some women dont play hard to get along with other games... but both sides are equal in the game playing of mating rituals... and to be honest... what kind of guy would want the type of girl who would play games like... spend on me, or you arent getting any?

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

if everything is so "equal" then why don't women approach men like men approach women? an attractive woman can walk into a bar and get laid by just about any man in that bar without picking up a finger or spending a dime but a man can't walk into a bar and get laid without putting out some serious effort, money, and a bit of luck.

Ok, so men aren't equal...
hahaha!! sorry, j/k

Perhaps it is because most women arent intrested in getting laid so easily. Not to say that some women dont play hard to get along with other games... but both sides are equal in the game playing of mating rituals... and to be honest... what kind of guy would want the type of girl who would play games like... spend on me, or you arent getting any?

equal? equal? okay, i'm sorry but i have to disagree.

More often not, it's the woman who makes the ultimate decision whether or not she will end up with a guy.

As much as I believe in equal rights, in the mating ritual, the woman has the upper cards. And it's not as if we willingly give it to them either.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

you pretty much summed up why american women suck. You have this attitude of "we deserve such and such" and are very ungrateful for all that the man does for you.

I don't understand your post...

What is it that a man does for a woman that she cannot do for herself... thus be considered equal?

we provide entertainment, take you out, we're your therapist, we provide, we do "man things" like fix stuff and pamper you and most of all we put up with all the emotional baggage because you've hopped from so many relationships you don't even know what true love is anymore - an unfaltering yearning to take care of the other person as best you can.

Its the attitude of "we don't need you" that is so damaging. Everybody "needs" somebody in some way. Taking your attitude makes men feel very unwanted. Its deep in the male pschy to provide and take care of his mate - and in doing so women think this is somehow wrong.

Yes I demand an equal partner and mate. But not one who keeps a list of how much house work they did and expect the same or more by keeping a tally. We're here to help each other, not compete.

me and my girl have a pretty good relationship - she does typical women stuff and I do typical man stuff. We both know our roles and are happy to play them.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

if everything is so "equal" then why don't women approach men like men approach women? an attractive woman can walk into a bar and get laid by just about any man in that bar without picking up a finger or spending a dime but a man can't walk into a bar and get laid without putting out some serious effort, money, and a bit of luck.

Ok, so men aren't equal...
hahaha!! sorry, j/k

Perhaps it is because most women arent intrested in getting laid so easily. Not to say that some women dont play hard to get along with other games... but both sides are equal in the game playing of mating rituals... and to be honest... what kind of guy would want the type of girl who would play games like... spend on me, or you arent getting any?

from my experience, a lot of women play games like "spend on me, or you arent getting any"
you mentioned the power of the pu$$ in your first post. i am not going to argue with that, and fact is a lot women take advantage of it.

all of us guys need to hold out and turn it into the power of the dik instead, make the ladies come running for it (of course nature won't allow that to happen, for any species on this planet).

guess my point is everything will be equal when women are as horny as men, lol.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

if everything is so "equal" then why don't women approach men like men approach women? an attractive woman can walk into a bar and get laid by just about any man in that bar without picking up a finger or spending a dime but a man can't walk into a bar and get laid without putting out some serious effort, money, and a bit of luck.

Ok, so men aren't equal...
hahaha!! sorry, j/k

Perhaps it is because most women arent intrested in getting laid so easily. Not to say that some women dont play hard to get along with other games... but both sides are equal in the game playing of mating rituals... and to be honest... what kind of guy would want the type of girl who would play games like... spend on me, or you arent getting any?

from my experience, a lot of women play games like "spend on me, or you arent getting any"
you mentioned the power of the pu$$ in your first post. i am not going to argue with that, and fact is a lot women take advantage of it.

all of us guys need to hold out and turn it into the power of the dik instead, make the ladies come running for it (of course nature won't allow that to happen, for any species on this planet).

guess my point is everything will be equal when women are as horny as men, lol.

heh, newsflash - they are as horny as us.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

i don't think that's true at all... there are plenty of women all around the world who are capable of taking care of themselves. i mean, there are women in africa and asia who are plowing fields and taking care of 6 children barefoot during drought season, you can't expect me to believe that american women are somehow more capable than those women.

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

if everything is so "equal" then why don't women approach men like men approach women? an attractive woman can walk into a bar and get laid by just about any man in that bar without picking up a finger or spending a dime but a man can't walk into a bar and get laid without putting out some serious effort, money, and a bit of luck.

Ok, so men aren't equal...
hahaha!! sorry, j/k

Perhaps it is because most women arent intrested in getting laid so easily. Not to say that some women dont play hard to get along with other games... but both sides are equal in the game playing of mating rituals... and to be honest... what kind of guy would want the type of girl who would play games like... spend on me, or you arent getting any?

from my experience, a lot of women play games like "spend on me, or you arent getting any"
you mentioned the power of the pu$$ in your first post. i am not going to argue with that, and fact is a lot women take advantage of it.

all of us guys need to hold out and turn it into the power of the dik instead, make the ladies come running for it (of course nature won't allow that to happen, for any species on this planet).

guess my point is everything will be equal when women are as horny as men, lol.

heh, newsflash - they are as horny as us.

they just need the right opportunity to show it....

sadly, i've seen cases where the woman broke up with the man because he wanted to wait and she didn't.

so you pretty much need to find someone sexually compadible with you as well as other traits.

Basically....the entire package.

 

[EyeMWing]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

you pretty much summed up why american women suck. You have this attitude of "we deserve such and such" and are very ungrateful for all that the man does for you.

I don't understand your post...

What is it that a man does for a woman that she cannot do for herself... thus be considered equal?

That's the problem - we AREN'T equal. There are inherent physiological differences that prevent "equality". Thereby in order to cater to your fantasy of equality, we males have to make sacrafices. Take for example, the firefighting profession. There are many females perfectly suited to it. BUT most of you AREN'T. According to your equality fantasy, there should be a 50/50 split and you aren't afraid to sue to get it. As a result, somewhere in this country is a female firefighter who was not held to the same standard as her male counterparts and as a result, cannot function in the full capacity of her job. That is NOT a good thing.

We're equal enough with the physiological barrier left intact. Stop trying to become somthing that you aren't - we males accept that you want to be equals to us, but once you start putting our lives (and your lives) on the line by becoming somthing you physically can't, that equality is no longer acceptable. Also understand that there are certain things which we men usually physiologically (or mentally) can't do which are prettymuch exclusive to you women - you don't seem to be begging us to come be your equals in primary education. In fact, you seem to try to keep men out.

Stop forcing us to uphold a double standard and all will be well between the genders.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Might be that American women are pretty much the only ones on the planet that are truly independent... we are totally capable of taking care of ourselves, and our children if need be, with no help from men... therefore, we demand to be treated as equals.

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

you pretty much summed up why american women suck. You have this attitude of "we deserve such and such" and are very ungrateful for all that the man does for you.

I don't understand your post...

What is it that a man does for a woman that she cannot do for herself... thus be considered equal?

we provide entertainment, take you out, we're your therapist, we provide, we do "man things" like fix stuff and pamper you and most of all we put up with all the emotional baggage because you've hopped from so many relationships you don't even know what true love is anymore - an unfaltering yearning to take care of the other person as best you can.

Its the attitude of "we don't need you" that is so damaging. Everybody "needs" somebody in some way. Taking your attitude makes men feel very unwanted. Its deep in the male pschy to provide and take care of his mate - and in doing so women think this is somehow wrong.

Yes I demand an equal partner and mate. But not one who keeps a list of how much house work they did and expect the same or more by keeping a tally. We're here to help each other, not compete.

me and my girl have a pretty good relationship - she does typical women stuff and I do typical man stuff. We both know our roles and are happy to play them.

i think you pretty much summed it up... there is a difference between equality and being mirror images. equality means you both respect each other, nobody views themselves as being better. but we have evolved so that different genders are just predisposed to play different roles... men are predisposed to take care of women in a certain way, and women are predisposed to take care of men in a certain way. i mean is it just some coincidence that women like tall men with broad shoulders? just because people take different roles in a relationship doesn't mean the are not equal. the attitude of "we can don't need you, we demand this, etc etc" is a real put-off imo, not just for sexual relations, but in any interpersonal relations.

 

[KarenMarie]

There is no arugment that women are as horney as men... but just as men can do for themselves, so can women...

And if the entire arguement to this topic is gonna boil down to just sex....well, ok...

Men work... women work.. men pay bills, so do women... women go to college, just like men... we are capable of holding employment, raising a family.. sometimes at the same time.. we can do plumbing, find a mechanic, get driving directions... invest our money... do houseowrk.... just about anything a man can do... therefore, we dont want to be told we must listen to someone else make rules for us... we want a 50/50 split. We dont want to be talked down to, taken for granted, disrespected or get any 'I am the boss cause I am a man' stuff.

If that makes us b1tches... well... hmmm... doesnt seem like it is the women with the problem here...

Now, I will give you that there are a lot of women with chips on their shoulders... and those that take advantage... but if that is the case, any man with something to offer will look elsewhere.

 

[sat]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
... and can do just about anything a man can.

I think you mistake women for she-males.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

LOL

I like my wife's saying: "Women control all sex."

Outside of rape (a bad bad thing), they do

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
There is no arugment that women are as horney as men... but just as men can do for themselves, so can women...

And if the entire arguement to this topic is gonna boil down to just sex....well, ok...

Men work... women work.. men pay bills, so do women... women go to college, just like men... we are capable of holding employment, raising a family.. sometimes at the same time.. we can do plumbing, find a mechanic, get driving directions... invest our money... do houseowrk.... just about anything a man can do... therefore, we dont want to be told we must listen to someone else make rules for us... we want a 50/50 split. We dont want to be talked down to, taken for granted, disrespected or get any 'I am the boss cause I am a man' stuff.

If that makes us b1tches... well... hmmm... doesnt seem like it is the women with the problem here...

Now, I will give you that there are a lot of women with chips on their shoulders... and those that take advantage... but if that is the case, any man with something to offer will look elsewhere.

but secretly you want to be lead, don't you? You want to be taken care of?

don't get me wrong. I love strong women and it is a prereq for somebody I would date/marry.

But I also want to be appreciated for all I do for them, just as I appreciate all she does for me.

 

[sat]

Originally posted by: Jassi
sat - These days, the girls in India are even more American than American women.

you got that right. I had another Indian girlfriend once, and the things she could do in bed - kinky doesnt even begin to describe it - I would be sore in "places the sun dont shine" the whole next day - and cant wait for the following night for more

(I probably would be kicked if I had to be more graphic - jeez, I got a hardon just thinking about it!)

 

[Hyperblaze]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: KarenMarie

We have 1/2 the money, all the pu... and can do just about anything a man can.

LOL

I like my wife's saying: "Women control all sex."

Outside of rape (a bad bad thing), they do

dude...that's because you have less self-control then she does....

if you can control your urges...i bet she would break and then take the inititize. either that or have an affair.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: spidey07

we provide entertainment, take you out, we're your therapist, we provide, we do "man things" like fix stuff and pamper you and most of all we put up with all the emotional baggage because you've hopped from so many relationships you don't even know what true love is anymore - an unfaltering yearning to take care of the other person as best you can.

Its the attitude of "we don't need you" that is so damaging. Everybody "needs" somebody in some way. Taking your attitude makes men feel very unwanted. Its deep in the male pschy to provide and take care of his mate - and in doing so women think this is somehow wrong.

Yes I demand an equal partner and mate. But not one who keeps a list of how much house work they did and expect the same or more by keeping a tally. We're here to help each other, not compete.

me and my girl have a pretty good relationship - she does typical women stuff and I do typical man stuff. We both know our roles and are happy to play them.

Ok.. with all due respect... women dont need men to entertain us. or take us out.... men are not greatest therapists for women cause much of the time, they dont understand each other emotionally.

I disagree about the everyone needing someone theory.... people shouldnt NEED each other... they should compliment each other... and they should be together cause they want to be, not cause they need to be. Your mention of 'a list of housework' is something I have never seen before... so I cannot comment on that.

If you and your g/f are happy in your roles.. that is great... whatever works...personally... my b/f doesnt need me to cook for him, clean up after him, do his laundry, be his accountant, his bookeeper and his focus... just as I dont need him to fix my car, help me with the animals and be wonderful to my daughter.. these are things we do for each other cause we want to and accept from each other as tokens of commitment and love...

For the longest time, in history... women were NOT equal to men... they were not allowed to own property, and if only a daughter was born, everything she inherited went directly to the husband... they could not vote... there were places that they were not allowed to enter... they had no say on what happened in their household, with their bodies, or for the most part their careers...

Women stayed home and made babies and men made all the decisions... it is not like that anymore... women are not dependent on men... therefore ... we want to be treated as equal. That does not, imho, make us b1tches... if some women are.. they have their own agenda.

 

[sat]

Originally posted by: Jassi
sat - These days, the girls in India are even more American than American women.

a more (somewhat) serious reply - If by "more american" you meant "more feministic, arrogantly independant, and bitchy", then you got that right as well. It is becoming to be that way, but thank God they are still ways off from that - BUT by then all the American females will probably be black-leather clad, dominatrixes ::LOL::

 

[yoda291]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
There is no arugment that women are as horney as men... but just as men can do for themselves, so can women...

And if the entire arguement to this topic is gonna boil down to just sex....well, ok...

Men work... women work.. men pay bills, so do women... women go to college, just like men... we are capable of holding employment, raising a family.. sometimes at the same time.. we can do plumbing, find a mechanic, get driving directions... invest our money... do houseowrk.... just about anything a man can do... therefore, we dont want to be told we must listen to someone else make rules for us... we want a 50/50 split. We dont want to be talked down to, taken for granted, disrespected or get any 'I am the boss cause I am a man' stuff.

If that makes us b1tches... well... hmmm... doesnt seem like it is the women with the problem here...

Now, I will give you that there are a lot of women with chips on their shoulders... and those that take advantage... but if that is the case, any man with something to offer will look elsewhere.

There's a distinct difference between "Can do" and "does".

It is my experience that women who actually do perform their jobs up to spec in the workplace are treated like "one of the guys" while the ones who don't expect to be treated fairly based on the fact that they "could" work just as hard. Of course, if you treat a woman like another guy, she sues you for gender specific harrassment because women don't expect to be treated equivalently to how they perform, they expect better treatment than their peers because they feel like they've done something special compared to every Tom Dick and Harry who does the same thing equally well.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
For the longest time, in history... women were NOT equal to men... they were not allowed to own property, and if only a daughter was born, everything she inherited went directly to the husband... they could not vote... there were places that they were not allowed to enter... they had no say on what happened in their household, with their bodies, or for the most part their careers...

Women stayed home and made babies and men made all the decisions... it is not like that anymore... women are not dependent on men... therefore ... we want to be treated as equal. That does not, imho, make us b1tches... if some women are.. they have their own agenda.

wouldn't it be funny if it turned out that you and spidey were each other's SO's

but seriously where do you get this thing about b!tches? history is history, how many men do you know that don't believe women shouldn't have the right to vote? i mean come on, there was a time when those fears were real, but they are just not very applicable anymore.

 

[veggiefrog]

sorry, but i dont think a woman "needs" a man (or vice versa) to survive. a woman is perfectly able to go to work, pay her own bills, own a house, cook, clean, build or fix something, whatever. while life is more fulfilling if there is someone whom one loves and cares about there to share, life doesnt end if a woman is single.

i think some people are taking the "equality" thing a bit too far; i dont think that it was meant that a woman can do absolutely anything a man can do, as there are plenty of things that i cannot do that a man can. i cant carry as heavy a weight, or do as many pushups/etc, or whatever. the things that i can do tho, i should be considered equal to a man who can do the same. a female programmer should be equal to a male one, b/c both can (in theory) do the job.

as for the 'women have the upper hand when it comes to mating', i think that's only at the beginning. how about the whole 'i'll call you' thing, where i have seen friends wait by the phone for him to call. that's the upper hand to me



(and i have no problem with someone wanting to take care of me -- a couple weeks ago i had the flu and my bf made me drinks/soup and took care of me. while that was wonderful and i was very appreciative, that does not mean that i'd be SOL if he wasnt there.)

 

[BujinZero]

Touchy, touchy ground. I'll try my best to hop the barbed wire and tiptoe around the landmines...

Or not. American women are great...if they're older than about 27. Most women, though, are married before that age. The problem is not with biology or education or equal rights or even American males, it's with American culture. Our rights are equal, but our perceptions are not.

Our media tells young women to dress like whores, have daddy buy worthless $hit, flirt with all the boys, and go to college. While not necessarily bad (especially for horny young males) it's very short-sighted and incredibly irresponsible. Even worse is the crap that's on primetime!

Most people say and like to think that females mature more quickly than males. I never bought that line of crap. We mature differently, but one gender is not quicker than another. Lets look at some key components of a marriage: responsibility and dedication. Generally, males are introduced to both things much earlier in life than women. Why? It's that 'man of the house' rhetoric. "Gotta be the man and work" and do other breadwinner's tasks. Young women work too, but not for the same reasons, and aren't necessarily expected to be on their own as soon as males. Parents don't want their daughters to work hard, but they don't want them shooting out babies anymore, either.

Many women never take advantage of the rights gained by their predecessors. Another media-inspired fantasy: women go to college to get their Mrs. degree, and truly become whores--sucking some lawyer's cock and doing menial tasks in exchange for a wedding ring and the lawyer's income.

But there's more. Disney and other jackasses feed children overly-romantic tales about love and marriage that have nothing to do with actual marriage. Marriage is work, I'm afraid, and the movie should not end at "you may now kiss the bride". American culture is incredibly romanticized. "Only one man can save the world, and he gets the girl, and they love each other, uhh, ummm, the end! Buy Pepsi!"

So many young women end up being someone not worth marrying. For most of the guys on this board, the ideal woman has a job, has a mind, would love them, would not smother them, is not a former 'princess', and does not have stretch marks around her mouth. Young women, moreso than young men, need a dose of reality and a clear look at life beyond their twenties.

Keep in mind, ladies, that most of the women who would post on this board are not who I described above. And don't get me started on men.

 

[spidey07]

That does not, imho, make us b1tches... if some women are.. they have their own agenda.

I think you and I see eye to eye more than we think.

I appologize if I misinterpreted your post. It kinda hit a nerve.

But on the "needing" part there is sound theory that some co-dependence is a good thing for a relationship. I also firmly believe that women are just better at many things than we.

I'm also a grown man who is completely capable of taking care of myself. I even love to cook and demand a partner who likes to cook - not from a "fix me dinner", but more of a hobby that we both can enjoy. I'll be the first to admit that my girl is a better cook than I - and I'm pretty good.

But nothing turns her on more than me grilling meat and how I smell when I come inside. man she just melts. She wants to learn to be a "grillmaster", and we'll have loads of fun teaching her. The same way she loves teaching me how to perfect a bechamel sauce.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: veggiefrog
sorry, but i dont think a woman "needs" a man (or vice versa) to survive. a woman is perfectly able to go to work, pay her own bills, own a house, cook, clean, build or fix something, whatever. while life is more fulfilling if there is someone whom one loves and cares about there to share, life doesnt end if a woman is single.

i think some people are taking the "equality" thing a bit too far; i dont think that it was meant that a woman can do absolutely anything a man can do, as there are plenty of things that i cannot do that a man can. i cant carry as heavy a weight, or do as many pushups/etc, or whatever. the things that i can do tho, i should be considered equal to a man who can do the same. a female programmer should be equal to a male one, b/c both can (in theory) do the job.

as for the 'women have the upper hand when it comes to mating', i think that's only at the beginning. how about the whole 'i'll call you' thing, where i have seen friends wait by the phone for him to call. that's the upper hand to me



(and i have no problem with someone wanting to take care of me -- a couple weeks ago i had the flu and my bf made me drinks/soup and took care of me. while that was wonderful and i was very appreciative, that does not mean that i'd be SOL if he wasnt there.)

well i think we're just getting into semantics with the whole "needs" thing. technically, people don't "need" anybody in their lives... friends, family, etc, but the fact is that we have "emotional needs".

 

[veggiefrog]

Originally posted by: KarenMarie
I disagree about the everyone needing someone theory.... people shouldnt NEED each other... they should compliment each other... and they should be together cause they want to be, not cause they need to be. Your mention of 'a list of housework' is something I have never seen before... so I cannot comment on that.

If you and your g/f are happy in your roles.. that is great... whatever works...personally... my b/f doesnt need me to cook for him, clean up after him, do his laundry, be his accountant, his bookeeper and his focus... just as I dont need him to fix my car, help me with the animals and be wonderful to my daughter.. these are things we do for each other cause we want to and accept from each other as tokens of commitment and love...

i agree with that!