Americans and education?

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: brandonbull
Then why is the US one tof the top countries in GDP spending for education? Why does the US have 23 out of the 25 top universities in the world? I've spoken to several coworkers from other countries and the difference is that the US allows students a choice in their higher education process.

Because they are trying to solve the problem, especially in high schools. This is very expensive.

And about the rankings: there are in the US most (not 23 out of 25 anyway) of the world's best MBA programs. Other countries don't have MBA or didn't have them untill a few years ago. Also you are looking at US rankings. The Economist rankings ranked 4 European MBAs in the top 10, including number 1.
Harvard is always on top of MBA rankings, but somehow Wall Street is full of people telling jockes about them. Education is about what you know, not how many classrooms your campus had, the quality of food or the salary you make out of school.


Besides, rankings are BS, all of them. Nobody can rank education.

 

[Aimster]

I'm Amerian but I am not white so you probably see me as being part of the foreign group with an education in America when I am actually American.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: compnovice
The thing is that you can live a decent life even without college education which is not the case in many countries. So, many people don't choose to pursue degrees.

This IMO is a good thing. Not every one is cut out for higher education. Only the people who really want it pursue it and not due to peer or social pressure.

This is the real problem. For what I see many people in the US consider education in terms of earning power. That's why faculty in american graduate schools is often 40 to 70 percent non-american.

If you think education is a way to get money, you can reach the conclusion that if you find a way to make money without an education it would be smart to do so. Education is about having a better life, not a better career. This is reflected also in the amazing percentage of executives in this country unable to name a single renaissance painter, or who never read shakespeare or have no clue about ancient history or never went to an Opera house. They just focused on their core curricula because they only cared about what they saw as immediately useful in their future professional life. This way they are not only human beings less capable to understand the world around them, but in the long run also worse professionals.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: compnovice
The thing is that you can live a decent life even without college education which is not the case in many countries. So, many people don't choose to pursue degrees.

This IMO is a good thing. Not every one is cut out for higher education. Only the people who really want it pursue it and not due to peer or social pressure.

This is the real problem. For what I see many people in the US consider education in terms of earning power. That's why faculty in american graduate schools is often 40 to 70 percent non-american.

If you think education is a way to get money, you can reach the conclusion that if you find a way to make money without an education it would be smart to do so. Education is about having a better life, not a better career. This is reflected also in the amazing percentage of executives in this country unable to name a single renaissance painter, or who never read shakespeare or have no clue about ancient history or never went to an Opera house. They just focused on their core curricula because they only cared about what they saw as immediately useful in their future professional life. This way they are not only human beings less capable to understand the world around them, but in the long run also worse professionals.

Any source to back up your claims about Shakespeare, history etc?
Just about every school I know of requires you to take a "core" group of classes that includes English, history, science etc.
Also next time you are at the Opera pick up a list of board of directors or supporters and you will see many business elites. CEOs, executives and other join these organizations as a way to "give back" to the community, and as a way to socialize.

 

[ProfJohn]

Found a report comparing our education and graduation rates to that of other countries.

According to this article for people 35+ we have the highest rate of college degrees in the world. But for 24-35 we have dropped to 7th in the world. Not exactly bad, but not something to brag about.

I wonder how our rank would change if you subtracted the 10-20 million illegals from our population.

BTW: we spend more money per student in this country than any other country besides Switzerland, so money is NOT the problem. (That is k-12 spending)

Check out the report, interesting stuff.
Education at a glance 2005
Report's home page

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: compnovice
The thing is that you can live a decent life even without college education which is not the case in many countries. So, many people don't choose to pursue degrees.

This IMO is a good thing. Not every one is cut out for higher education. Only the people who really want it pursue it and not due to peer or social pressure.

This is the real problem. For what I see many people in the US consider education in terms of earning power. That's why faculty in american graduate schools is often 40 to 70 percent non-american.

If you think education is a way to get money, you can reach the conclusion that if you find a way to make money without an education it would be smart to do so. Education is about having a better life, not a better career. This is reflected also in the amazing percentage of executives in this country unable to name a single renaissance painter, or who never read shakespeare or have no clue about ancient history or never went to an Opera house. They just focused on their core curricula because they only cared about what they saw as immediately useful in their future professional life. This way they are not only human beings less capable to understand the world around them, but in the long run also worse professionals.

Any source to back up your claims about Shakespeare, history etc?
Just about every school I know of requires you to take a "core" group of classes that includes English, history, science etc.
Also next time you are at the Opera pick up a list of board of directors or supporters and you will see many business elites. CEOs, executives and other join these organizations as a way to "give back" to the community, and as a way to socialize.

Oh yes, thanks God there are many people understanding the value of culture and the arts, and willing to finance them. It doesn't hurt these expenses are tax-deductible and that you can put the corporate logo everywhere in the theatre.

I don't have any number or source but my personal experiences working on wall street and lecturing in some american universities including one of the Ivy league. Most of these guys will never evolve into anything but a number-cruncher, and my personal opinion is most of the blame is on the education they chose.

And you are right, universities have a core program requiring students to get basic knowledge of basic western culture. The problem is not the program, it's the students. You can't understand Caravaggio's paintings if you don't care. Many young guys in this country think that understanding Caravaggio won't affect their future income, hence they couldn't care less. Of course it's a general attitude I see, and many exceptions do exist.

But tell me honestly you never heard anybody saying something like "if you have to go to graduate school at least study management or law or business. There's no point in a Art history PhD"
I hear this all the time. I also hear every sort of profanity and display of lack of culture coming out of junior consultants' mouths supposed to be the "cream of the cream", working at top firms after attending top schools.

Then firms try to repair and promote what they call soft skills. But it takes more than reading The Art of War or Machiavelli's Principe to forge a leader capable of understanding the world.

 

[joshw10]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Right now our country has a problem with success, through years of scorn from the left about evil capitalists our nation has decided success is a bad word and would rather make fun of people who further themselves with education.

And of course the people who do further themselves with education and become successful are then pegged as thiefs for making so much money while the people who made fun of them are working at McDonalds or Walmart because they didnt put the time in to be successful. Of course the people who didnt put the time in also feel it is their right to steal money out of the pockets of those who were successful, because obviously it is the successful person fault they didnt apply themselves and become more.

It makes for a bad situation that is only going to get worse as the Asian economies ramp up over the next 40-60 years and the United States loses its economic buying power and becomes a nation with high entitlement costs, lower educated workforces, and a stronger state ala the EU.

If anything our capitalist/corporate society has become too unbalanced resulting in a few of the rich and then the masses of mindless consumers trained to only care about what's on TV and the size of the rims they put on their car.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What Americans call education is insanity. It's all about winning and losing, competition and grades, tests and all forms of crap that have nothing to do with the fact that education is the love of learning. We are a deeply sick people and everything we tough we make sick. Our education produces nothing but fear. It freezes the human spirit and removes the self from learning so that nothing at all has any relevance.

This issue was even addressed last night by PBS on a program called Humankind.

Couldn't have said it better myself.