Americans saving less than nothing. Spending could outstrip income in 2005

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/08/BUG7IGJHEK1.DTL
When the Commerce Department recently tallied up consumer finances for November, it found that Americans shelled out more money than they took in. It was the seventh such month of red ink during 2005.

Kevin Lansing, an economist with the Federal Reserve Bank in San Francisco, tracks the personal savings rate -- the Commerce Department's measure of how much consumers have left after spending is subtracted from income. In November the savings rate was a negative 0.2 percent.

Given how much red ink households racked up in the first 11 months of last year, Lansing said the nation's personal savings rate could well be negative for all of 2005.

That, he added, would be "the first such occurrence since the Great Depression."


The term "savings rate" may be a misnomer. Keith Leggett, senior economist with the American Bankers Association, described the measure as a tally of all the income that isn't spent.

"Savings is the absence of consumption,'' he said.

Traditionally this unspent income has been used to accumulate capital for future investment. By contrast, the recent spell of low savings -- or high spending -- has provided a short-term stimulus, helping the nation's output of goods and services grow at an enviable 4.3 percent rate in the third quarter of 2005.

But many experts say that in the months ahead, savings-starved, debt-burdened households will slow their spending and, with it, the economy. "You're seeing a situation where the consumers are spending every penny they possibly can and borrowing on top of that,'' said Joel Naroff, a Pennsylvania economic consultant, who expects growth to cool in the near future.

And while classical economic theory says savings must accumulate for future investment, if consumers suddenly start spending less, it could cause problems. "If everybody decided to save, the economy would contract and you'd lose jobs,'' Leggett said.

The Federal Reserve's Lansing examined the savings argument more closely in a November Federal Reserve article titled "Spendthrift Nation." He noted that in the 1980s the personal savings rate in the United States averaged 9 percent. Put another way, back then Americans spent 91 cents of every after-tax dollar they earned, which left a 9 cent surplus for savings or investment.

During the 1990s, Americans spent about 95 cents per dollar earned and had a nickel left. The nation ended 2004 with an annual savings rate of 1.8 percent. The rate has continued down through 2005, attracting the notice of some prominent economic observers.

"If we can believe the numbers, personal savings in the United States have practically disappeared,'' former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker wrote in an ominously titled opinion piece, "An economy on thin ice," in April.

But other economists, including current members of the Federal Reserve, say the falling savings rate isn't so alarming. They argue that the declining savings rate has been offset by another factor -- rising home prices.


"A lot of the psychology of savings is that you're prepared for an emergency," said economist Tim Kane with the Heritage Foundation in Washington. "And if your house is worth 10 percent more, then you feel you're prepared.''

Federal Reserve Board member Susan Schmidt Bies painted a sanguine picture of American spending, savings and debt in an April speech. She conceded that household debt had grown twice as fast as after-tax income between 1999 and 2004, helping drive down the savings rate. But Bies noted that household net worth has soared, driven by rising home prices coupled with stock market gains.

"While analysts usually focus on the savings rate," Bies said, "some argue that a more relevant measure of savings adequacy is ... the change in net worth. And in this regard the picture of household savings looks more favorable."

In a sense, the American home has become the proverbial cake that consumers can have and eat as well, optimists say.

"Consumers want to borrow, tapping the equity they have in their homes," said Leggett, the American Bankers Association economist. "We have really figured out a way of banking to free up illiquid assets so they have greater liquidity."

But many economists say housing prices will, at best, flatten out, breaking the cycle of refinancing that has allowed consumers to borrow and spend.

"I'm afraid the home equity fountain of youth is going to dry up,'' said Scott Anderson, an economist with Wells Fargo. He said Freddie Mac, the giant mortgage reseller, projects that consumers will withdraw a record $200 billion in cash-out financings in 2005 -- a figure that is expected to fall to $110 billion in 2006 as mortgage rates rise.

Anderson said real earnings gains have remained more or less flat as inflation eats up wage growth. As the refinancing stimulus is removed, he foresees slower consumption in 2006. Still, he adds, "that doesn't necessarily spell doom and gloom."

Tom Schlesinger, executive director of the Financial Markets Center, a liberal Virginia think tank, is more alarmed. Schlesinger noted that the Federal Reserve's debt service ratio, which compares consumer debt payments to disposable income, hit records in each of the three quarters of 2005 for which data are available.

"Families continue to be heavily burdened by debt,'' he said.

Amelia Warren Tyagi, who, with her mother, Harvard law Professor Elizabeth Warren, co-authored "The Two Income Trap," said debt nowadays ensnares not just the working poor, but also middle-class families with two wage earners. Tyagi said elevated costs for mortgages, health insurance, education and day care had eroded the purchasing power of the second paycheck.

"What's happened to the family is that they have budgeted to the limit of those two incomes," she said. "If anything happens -- a job loss or an illness -- they're stuck."

Oakland homeowner Sue McCullough, 46, has experienced the pitfalls of going from two incomes down to one. In the early 1990s, she and her husband of 18 years, Don Barks, 48, both worked in St. Louis. They owned a fourplex, living in one unit and renting out the others.

When McCullough was laid off in 1991, they relocated to the Bay Area. And when she became pregnant, Barks became a stay-at-home dad.

In retrospect, McCullough, who has continued working straight through as a computer programmer, said giving up the second paycheck may have been an error. A string of bad breaks eventually caused them to lose their property in St. Louis and file for bankruptcy in 1997 in the midst of having their second child.

"I waddled into bankruptcy court seven months pregnant," said McCullough, who has since rebuilt the family's credit by getting small credit cards and then a car loan. In 2001, the family of four was able to qualify for a mortgage on a two-bedroom bungalow in Oakland's Lower Laurel neighborhood.

"I am really careful, as in obsessive,'' said McCullough, a self-described skinflint when it comes to debt and spending. "We hit bottom and then things started to get better."
Are they serious? Rising home prices? Didn't they notice the housing bubble is starting to burst? And, even then, those rising home prices don't mean there is tons of equity sitting out there untapped. Won't feel so prepared when that 10% doesn't exist due to 100% loans and interest-only loans.

These people are blithering idiots!
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,203
3,617
126
I think the number for 2004 was 7% of the total consumer spending was them borrowing from their home. Now that interest rates are going up, and housing increases are slowing, that 7% is going to dry up.

I couldn't imagine using my home equity for frivilous spending. But they did NEED their new luxury SUV and big screen HDTV.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: dullard
I think the number for 2004 was 7% of the total consumer spending was them borrowing from their home. Now that interest rates are going up, and housing increases are slowing, that 7% is going to dry up.

I couldn't imagine using my home equity for frivilous spending. But they did NEED their new luxury SUV and big screen HDTV.

According to our president it's your patriotic duty.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Probably more likely they're using that home equity money to pay medical bills as people are having to pay higher deductibles and higher co-pays.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Probably more likely they're using that home equity money to pay medical bills as people are having to pay higher deductibles and higher co-pays.

Reverse mortages are getting really popular for the older generation.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: conjur
Probably more likely they're using that home equity money to pay medical bills as people are having to pay higher deductibles and higher co-pays.
Reverse mortages are getting really popular for the older generation.
And I bet it won't be long until we see 100-year mortgages like in Japan or multi-generational families in one house.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
1
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: conjur
Probably more likely they're using that home equity money to pay medical bills as people are having to pay higher deductibles and higher co-pays.
Reverse mortages are getting really popular for the older generation.
And I bet it won't be long until we see 100-year mortgages like in Japan or multi-generational families in one house.

I personally think the Neocon's "house of cards" will fall apart before that happens. If the American public doesn't get it's head out of it's ass soon, we're in for BIG trouble. The best thing that could happen for the ultra powerful would be a 1930's style depression and that worries me. People say it can't happen here because of all the checks and balances, and that worries me even more.

 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: conjur
Probably more likely they're using that home equity money to pay medical bills as people are having to pay higher deductibles and higher co-pays.
Reverse mortages are getting really popular for the older generation.
And I bet it won't be long until we see 100-year mortgages like in Japan or multi-generational families in one house.

I personally think the Neocon's "house of cards" will fall apart before that happens. If the American public doesn't get it's head out of it's ass soon, we're in for BIG trouble. The best thing that could happen for the ultra powerful would be a 1930's style depression and that worries me. People say it can't happen here because of all the checks and balances, and that worries me even more.

Those checks and balances have been chilseled away slowly over the last 25 years.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
I'm ruining our nation's average with my savings and debt-free lifestyle, sorry guys!
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Originally posted by: conjur
Probably more likely they're using that home equity money to pay medical bills as people are having to pay higher deductibles and higher co-pays.
Reverse mortages are getting really popular for the older generation.
And I bet it won't be long until we see 100-year mortgages like in Japan or multi-generational families in one house.
I personally think the Neocon's "house of cards" will fall apart before that happens. If the American public doesn't get it's head out of it's ass soon, we're in for BIG trouble. The best thing that could happen for the ultra powerful would be a 1930's style depression and that worries me. People say it can't happen here because of all the checks and balances, and that worries me even more.
Well, I've been saying something like is inevitable (1930s-style Depression). Except, this time, there's a possibility that the US government is going to default on its debts and obligations. *That's* what scares me.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
We are talking about going from a 5% savings rate to a 1.8% savings rate. I wouldnt say a 3.2% swing is going to spell doom and gloom that wasnt already there to begin with.

The article mentions the housing market which has been hot. It is no surprise in the 1990s with a hot stock market the savings rate was higher. When the market crashed so did the savings rate. People are putting money into their homes that are earning 10-50% a year returns.

When the housing market flattens out dont be surprised if you see a rise in savings rates as people plow their money back into the market with the hope of making higher returns than thier homes.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
That's just hit, those 10-50%/yr returns are in select markets and I'd be willing to bet most of the homes involved are mortgaged to the hilt.


As for the savings rate rising when the housing market drops, didn't you read the article?

The spending now is coming from increasing the debt load. When the debt limit is hit, there's nowhere to go but down.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: conjur

Given how much red ink households racked up in the first 11 months of last year, Lansing said the nation's personal savings rate could well be negative for all of 2005.

That, he added, would be "the first such occurrence since the Great Depression."

Cool, all part of the Great Republican National Plan.

All but the rich at the mercy of them.

Enjoy :laugh:
 

JHutch

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
1,040
0
0
Just curious, but do those figures take into account 401k payments?

In my case, my wife and I put over 10% of our pretax income into a 401k, which *I* count as savings, but I don't know if it counts for this article.

If you don't count 401k, I ain't saving jack crap.

JHutch
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,203
3,617
126
Originally posted by: JHutch
Just curious, but do those figures take into account 401k payments?
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Is savings just cash in the bank?
Bureau of Economic Analysis PDF Page 13:
Personal saving (2?6) is personal income less the sum of personal outlays and personal tax and nontax payments. It is the current saving of individuals...

Personal saving may also be viewed as the net acquisition of financial assets (such as cash and deposits, securities, and the change in life insurance and pension fund reserves), plus the net investment in produced assets (such as residential housing, less depreciation), less the net increase in financial liabilities (such as mortgage debt, consumer credit, and security credit), less net capital transfers received.
So, in other words, yes it does include retirement plans. No it isn't just cash in the bank. Add the value of everything you have and subtract the value of all your debts.
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
Why do we need savings when there are China, Japan, and other countries willing to buy our debt?
 

WyteWatt

Banned
Jun 8, 2001
6,255
0
0
I think the problem is the financially irresponsible people who, instead of trying to repay their debts, go and file for bankruptcy. This increases the burden on the responsible people (like me). A lot of people also complain about the Mexicans in America. Well, atleast mexicans are willing to take the jobs that are "beneath" these debtors (HAH!). Anyway I'm not going to name names, but you guys know who you are...
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
I don't see how people can't save. When I graduate and get a real job (or when I get an internship...Not going to say things too early ) I want to take a nice chunk and save it....whether it be banks or put it in mutual funds or anything else, some kind of savings is needed for a strong future rather than piss it all away
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,234
701
126
<---- Home paid off next month. Now time to bring up the whole nation's savings rate...by myself! :shocked:

 

WyteWatt

Banned
Jun 8, 2001
6,255
0
0
Originally posted by: magomago
I don't see how people can't save. When I graduate and get a real job (or when I get an internship...Not going to say things too early ) I want to take a nice chunk and save it....whether it be banks or put it in mutual funds or anything else, some kind of savings is needed for a strong future rather than piss it all away
The key is to ignore all the negative nancy's that say America is going to hell in a handbasket. Be responsible, save money, use common sense, that's really all it takes
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: JHutch
Just curious, but do those figures take into account 401k payments?
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Is savings just cash in the bank?
Bureau of Economic Analysis PDF Page 13:
Personal saving (2?6) is personal income less the sum of personal outlays and personal tax and nontax payments. It is the current saving of individuals...

Personal saving may also be viewed as the net acquisition of financial assets (such as cash and deposits, securities, and the change in life insurance and pension fund reserves), plus the net investment in produced assets (such as residential housing, less depreciation), less the net increase in financial liabilities (such as mortgage debt, consumer credit, and security credit), less net capital transfers received.
So, in other words, yes it does include retirement plans. No it isn't just cash in the bank. Add the value of everything you have and subtract the value of all your debts.

I dont think that is the case. I know have read several articles saying that 401ks, retirement investments and home equity are excluded from savings rate. I unfortunatly cant find any of them right now.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Well, from the article:

"the personal savings rate -- the Commerce Department's measure of how much consumers have left after spending is subtracted from income."


Just doesn't say if 401(k) contributions are an expenditure that takes away from income.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: conjur
Well, from the article:

"the personal savings rate -- the Commerce Department's measure of how much consumers have left after spending is subtracted from income."


Just doesn't say if 401(k) contributions are an expenditure that takes away from income.



Well Like I said i am certain 401k spending is left out of that figure as it is not a liquid asset.
 
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