"America's health care system is like a free market in the same way that Madonna is like a virgin"

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Forbes Article

Funny quote in this article that I think is true. There are so many regulations and existing government interventions that I worry we have not given the free market a chance with health care. I'd rather have a truly free-market system and hand out $5000 vouchers. (They can buy high-deductible insurance on the remainder of their needs.)

That would be a far better option option that was is being crammed though congress right now.

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: shortylickens

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Forbes Article

Funny quote in this article that I think is true. There are so many regulations and existing government interventions that I worry we have not given the free market a chance with health care. I'd rather have a truly free-market system and hand out $5000 vouchers. (They can buy high-deductible insurance on the remainder of their needs.)

If you gave every American 5 grand to spend on medicine, the drug companies and hospitals would raise their prices.
Thats what the so-called "free market" would get you.

Well, if there was an actual free market, then competition would prevent the drug companies from doing that.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Forbes Article

Funny quote in this article that I think is true. There are so many regulations and existing government interventions that I worry we have not given the free market a chance with health care. I'd rather have a truly free-market system and hand out $5000 vouchers. (They can buy high-deductible insurance on the remainder of their needs.)

I agree. Anybody who parades our healthcare system is a free market is either ignorant or a blatent liar.

Thanks for the link, great article. As I have been trying to get one particular poster to stop talking about our free market healthcare system.

The point is that there is no health care model, whether privately or publicly financed, that can offer unlimited access to medical services while containing costs.

Yup, there is no magic public option bullet to slay rising costs by putting more into a system and giving them unlimited access.

The only sustainable system that avoids this Hobson's choice is one that is based on a genuine free market in which there is some connection between what patients pay for coverage and the services they receive.

One of my two major bullet points on healthcare reform. With the disconnect between the consumer and the cost of the system. We will never control costs.

 

[Czar]

Is healthcare a service or a privilege?

The core question to any healthcare system, and no you cant have both

 

[Czar]

Is healthcare a service or a privilege?

The core question to any healthcare system, and no you cant have both

 

[0marTheZealot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

One of my two major bullet points on healthcare reform. With the disconnect between the consumer and the cost of the system. We will never control costs.

Consumers cannot make rational choices when it comes to their health. There are several reasons for this. One of them being is that there is no alternative, you can't substitute a massage for an MRI. You simply cannot make a rational decision based on incomplete information and on your life.

What if a blood test comes back troubling (eg you are slightly elevated for a certain type of cancer) and the doctor wants to run a battery of tests that costs $5000. The vast majority of consumers are not going to say no thanks, they'll run every test until they figure out the culprit. Sure, you can get a second or third opinion, but in most cases, they will say the same thing because facts don't lie.

 

[Czar]

Is healthcare a service or a privilege?

The core question to any healthcare system, and no you cant have both

 

[Czar]

Is healthcare a service or a privilege?

The core question to any healthcare system, and no you cant have both

 

[Czar]

Is healthcare a service or a privilege?

The core question to any healthcare system, and no you cant have both

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Czar
Is healthcare a service or a privilege?

The core question to any healthcare system, and no you cant have both

Are you doing this on purpose?!?!?!?!?

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: sportage
Maybe the whole problem with us healthcare system that it is NOT totally government ran.
MAybe free market has been the problem all along.
Maybe we need a 100% ran government healthcare system, like the military, post office
and fed tax system.
After all, in Iraq (for example) it was the independent non-government controlled
contractors that cost us, that failed us, and were out of control.
If the us military were the only factor in the Iraq war, would not the outcome
have been successful? Costs controlled? Losses eliminated?

Except, that's not entirely true. A large part of why the military is able to do what they are doing with the success that they have had is BECAUSE there are civilian private contractors there doing a LOT of the "heavy lifting". They're maintaining equipment, building bases, running chow halls, tranporting supplies, running security, supplementing our troops. There's no way that the military could have pulled of the scale of operations in Iraq without the private contractors.

The us post office is very successful. It is government ran.
The fed tax system is very successful. Its government ran.
The us military is very successful. Its government ran.

All a very small piece of the population, there is no way the government is going to be able to run the healthcare for the entire nation. The amount of beauracracy alone would be overwhelming, and the expansion of government into our lives would be irreversible. I know that I don't want the government in charge of my healthcare, me and my insurance, and doctor are doing just fine. And the Post OFfice is revenue-neutral, doesn't, or isn't supposed to turn a profit, most people I think that go into medical school want to turn a profit, and that's their right, they choose a long education to provide a special service, and deserve to be paid well for it.

 

[Czar]

ermm sorry, bad 3g connection

 

[PokerGuy]

Originally posted by: sportage
Ever consider the whole problem with us healthcare "is" the free market, non-government aspect?
The us post office is very successful. It is government ran.

Ugh. Yes, the post office is government run. It also is protected against competition. If there was competition it would likely be out of business.

The us military is very successful. Its government ran.

Sure, with no competition and at a cost of a TRILLION dollars per year, or 5% of US annual GDP. I think the military can be described as "effective" at accomplishing the goals set out for it (defending the country), but I wouldn't exactly pick it as an example of how cost effective a government run system is.

Maybe the whole problem with us healthcare system that it is NOT totally government ran. MAybe free market has been the problem all along.

Yeah, that's the problem, because the government is a beacon of efficiency

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: sportage
Ever consider the whole problem with us healthcare "is" the free market, non-government aspect?
The us post office is very successful. It is government ran.
The fed tax system is very successful. Its government ran.
The us military is very successful. Its government ran.

The post office is legally protected from competition, yet it still outsources overnight packages to FedEx.
The tax system? The IRS? Successful?
The military is successful, but not necessarily efficient.

 

[Albatross]

problem with healthcare all around the world is people demanding from medicine and doctors what they didn`t know to receive from religion...

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
If you gave every American 5 grand to spend on medicine, the drug companies and hospitals would raise their prices.
Thats what the so-called "free market" would get you.

No, you might see some temporary inflation but remember that if drug companies raised their prices many people would choose NOT to buy some medicine. Drug companies would then lower their prices to increase demand.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: shortylickens
If you gave every American 5 grand to spend on medicine, the drug companies and hospitals would raise their prices.
Thats what the so-called "free market" would get you.

No, you might see some temporary inflation but remember that if drug companies raised their prices many people would choose NOT to buy some medicine. Drug companies would then lower their prices to increase demand.

Depends on what types of drug. if it's lifesaving and there's not much competition for it, they can charge whatever you want because such drugs have inelastic demand.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Apples and oranges. Antibiotic use is more like the vaccination issue. That's not what is meant by consumer driven medicine.

It sure would be consumer driven. Consumer decides whether to pay a doctor and how much of which drugs to take. This is what would happen in a free market.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Apples and oranges. Antibiotic use is more like the vaccination issue. That's not what is meant by consumer driven medicine.

It sure would be consumer driven. Consumer decides whether to pay a doctor and how much of which drugs to take. This is what would happen in a free market.

You're ignoring the important fact that the vast majority of people that use the term "free market" still want the law to apply in some limited fashion. The debate is not whether the government can license doctors, for example. But to indulge your strawman, you could let the civil legal system take care of the issue. A pure free market system would allow a contract to exist between patient and provider that would have liquidated damages if the patient did not take all the meds (thereby reducing the effectiveness of the antiobiotic by not taking all the pills).

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Why on earth would anyone ever think health care was free market? We can charge anything we like but we are paid precisely what insurance wants to pay us. There is no choice unless its the choice not to practice. One reads of the occasional doc who takes cash only but those MRIs? Not cheap.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Why on earth would anyone ever think health care was free market? We can charge anything we like but we are paid precisely what insurance wants to pay us. There is no choice unless its the choice not to practice. One reads of the occasional doc who takes cash only but those MRIs? Not cheap.

The reason why our healthcare is 'free market' is because whether you account for our government regulations or not, free market healthcare suffers from adverse selection and risk selection. There is no incentive for insurance companies to take on patients that are sick or who have pre-existing conditions that would lend them a higher probability to getting sick later on.

Skewed incentives and all.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Apples and oranges. Antibiotic use is more like the vaccination issue. That's not what is meant by consumer driven medicine.

It sure would be consumer driven. Consumer decides whether to pay a doctor and how much of which drugs to take. This is what would happen in a free market.

You're ignoring the important fact that the vast majority of people that use the term "free market" still want the law to apply in some limited fashion. The debate is not whether the government can license doctors, for example. But to indulge your strawman, you could let the civil legal system take care of the issue. A pure free market system would allow a contract to exist between patient and provider that would have liquidated damages if the patient did not take all the meds (thereby reducing the effectiveness of the antiobiotic by not taking all the pills).

Why would I be forced to have a provider in a free market system? Sounds like government forcing me to pay someone to get access to pills. That's not free market. I should be able to go online, get me some Cipro and self medicate. I don't need a gatekeeper to pay off first.

 

[Harvey]

The health care debate explained.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Harvey
The health care debate explained.

So true!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Hey that looks great!
isn't true, but it's funny