America's most expensive weapons clusterf***: The Lockheed F-35 Lightning II

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,647
27
91
Pretty interesting article, and gives a look at what has troubled the program from the start from generals, pilots, the man overseeing the program, and inside sources:

You've been warned, it's 7 pages long.

The chasm between contractor and client was on full display on June 19, 2013, when the Pentagon’s chief weapons tester, Dr. J. Michael Gilmore, testified before Congress. He said that “less than 2 percent” of the placeholder software (called “Block 2B”) that the Marines plan to use has completed testing, though much more is in the process of being tested. (Lockheed insists that its “software-development plan is on track,” that the company has “coded more than 95 percent of the 8.6 million lines of code on the F-35,” and that “more than 86 percent of that software code is currently in flight test.”) Still, the pace of testing may be the least of it. According to Gilmore, the Block 2B software that the Marines say will make their planes combat capable will, in fact, “provide limited capability to conduct combat.” What is more, said Gilmore, if F-35s loaded with Block 2B software are actually used in combat, “they would likely need significant support from other fourth-generation and fifth-generation combat systems to counter modern, existing threats, unless air superiority is somehow otherwise assured and the threat is cooperative.” Translation: the F-35s that the Marines say they can take into combat in 2015 are not only ill equipped for combat but will likely require airborne protection by the very planes the F-35 is supposed to replace.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/2013/09/joint-strike-fighter-lockheed-martin

 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
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81
www.dogsonacid.com
These programs exist to siphon as much money as possible from the taxpayer. What wins wars is lots of cheap, but effective, stuff and good strategy.

Thing is, there hasn't been a real war between world powers for quite awhile. Is this going to happen sometime soon?
 

Destiny

Platinum Member
Jul 6, 2010
2,309
1
0
Back in the WWII days... it took real skill to drop bombs and dogfight... now they can't fly a plane/jet into combat because it needs software?!
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,647
27
91
These programs exist to siphon as much money as possible from the taxpayer. What wins wars is lots of cheap, but effective, stuff and good strategy.

Thing is, there hasn't been a real war between world powers for quite awhile. Is this going to happen sometime soon?

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, and backers of the program even say as much in the article, but I still can't wrap my head around the fact that the proposal for the Lightweight Fighter Program was instituted in 1972, the YF-16 first flew in 1974, the YF-16 was chosen over the YF-17 in 1974, and the F-16A entered operational service in 1980.

The JSF program was initiated in 1996, the X-35 first flew in 2000, contract was awarded in 2001, and the earliest IOC for any F-35 variant is December 2015 (and you know that will be probably pushed back multiple times).

WTF?
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,647
27
91
Back in the WWII days... it took real skill to drop bombs and dogfight... now they can't fly a plane/jet into combat because it needs software?!

Back in WWII days, they could design a plane, test it, and build a couple of thousand of them in the span of about two or three years :biggrin:
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
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The 747 was an idea in 1965, and entered service in January of 1970. It would have entered service in 1969 except for development problems with the engines.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
23,177
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WTF, isn't Vanity Fair like a pop/fashion type of magazine? Not sure how much trust I'll put in their reporting on an issue like this, but could be an interesting read.

I'm really split on this, on the one hand, our military is way overblown and its gotten stupid and we're in danger of it doing to us what the USSR's did to them, but I also think the F-35 and F-22 are being demonized. Pretty much every major weapons system has big issues. The stuff we've used to get our military dominance suffered through similar setbacks, it takes a while to get kinks worked out, and yes it costs a shit ton. It, and the deaths and other setbacks are the costs of doing this. I guess it goes to that fine line we walk with our military industrial complex.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,177
5,641
146
I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, and backers of the program even say as much in the article, but I still can't wrap my head around the fact that the proposal for the Lightweight Fighter Program was instituted in 1972, the YF-16 first flew in 1974, the YF-16 was chosen over the YF-17 in 1974, and the F-16A entered operational service in 1980.

The JSF program was initiated in 1996, the X-35 first flew in 2000, contract was awarded in 2001, and the earliest IOC for any F-35 variant is December 2015 (and you know that will be probably pushed back multiple times).

WTF?

Bureaucracy at work.

Keep in mind the F-16s today are quite a bit different from those back then. The F-35 is also intended to replace a few different aircraft, while also being a "budget friendly" fighter, and its being developed for multiple nations, and then there's the budget/financial crisis that put an extra squeeze on its development.
 

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
Didn't they try that with the F-4 Phantom?

Yeah, and it was decent, but beyond interception and being able to haul a big bomb load (but not that accurately) it was ok. The A-6 was a much more venerable attack/bomber platform and it was completely all-weather.

The F-35 on paper is a pretty impressive plane, but the move to such digital reliance has caused too many headaches and the cost just keeps moving up and the problems mounting. If it hadn't been for the end of the Cold War, the Marines would've received their supersonic VTOL courtesy of either MacAir or BAe's numerous in-house Harrier replacement studies.

The USAF should've just received more F-22s for the air dominance and first-day-of-war enemy air defense network strikes, with B-1Bs, F-16XLs and FB-22s providing the real brunt of bombing.

The Navy should've received the F-14 'Tomcat 22' instead of the F/A-18E/F which would've been a just fine stop gap until the 6th gen F/A-XX arrives.

I beg to ask though, with the cost in combat aircraft going up, is a plane that costs 6 or more times than currently available aircraft really 6 times more capable? No. The basic designs of current fighters are easily adaptable to upper 4th gen standards like AESA and semi-stealth.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
I beg to ask though, with the cost in combat aircraft going up, is a plane that costs 6 or more times than currently available aircraft really 6 times more capable? No. The basic designs of current fighters are easily adaptable to upper 4th gen standards like AESA and semi-stealth.

They keep finding that you can get 80% of the capability at 20% of the cost by cramming modern avionics into 80s airframes...which is downright embarrassing for the defense contractors.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
Lockheed has no competition so they sit on their asses and milk the Pentagon. This winner-take-all contract was, in theory, save money, but it destroyed any hope of competition. The Pentagon should have let either Boeing or Northrop to compete with Lockheed to build the 5th generation fighter.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
And the idea of the F-35 replacing this just makes me LOL:


The A-10 has always been a favorite of mine. I was reading about the clusterfuck of a display which would nauseate even me and then read

Consider this: the air force’s non-stealthy A-10 Thunderbolt II—a close-air-support aircraft that the Marines routinely call upon and which the F-35 is replacing—can carry 16,000 pounds worth of weapons and ordnance, including general-purpose bombs, cluster bombs, laser-guided bombs, wind-corrected munitions, AGM-65 Maverick and AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles, rockets, and illumination flares. It also has a 30-mm. GAU-8/A Gatling gun, capable of firing 3,900 rounds a minute.

The plane slows down from firing 30mm rounds at 3,900 rpm god that is an awesome plane. I've heard stories where it has landed missing half a wing and shit. The plane is just flat out tough.

By comparison, the F-35B, which the Marines insist they will field in 2015, will carry two AIM-120 advanced air-to-air missiles (which protect the F-35 from other aircraft, not grunts on the ground) and either two 500-pound GBU-12 laser-guided bombs or two 1,000-pound GBU-32 J.D.A.M.’s. In other words, a plane that costs at least five times as much as its predecessor will initially deploy carrying one third as much ordnance and no gun whatsoever.

BOO!

Also...

That display is just crazy. I can appreciate the cameras to aid in awareness. They need to mount those flexible led screens inside the cockpit on the "heads down" instrument display. HUD for offense and keep an eye on the heads down display to check your six or below the plane. Whats the problem? Get rid of that helmet invisible plane crap. Its disorienting because you need a frame of reference spatially. Pilots are good pilots because of their natural spatial awareness, they can't see below but know what is there, or through instruments etc. Trying to fly by what is essentially google glass over both eyes is a bad idea.
 
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bryanl

Golden Member
Oct 15, 2006
1,157
8
81
WTF, isn't Vanity Fair like a pop/fashion type of magazine? Not sure how much trust I'll put in their reporting on an issue like this, but could be an interesting read.
But Us Weekly and Vogue don't hire Peabody award-winning journalists who are ex-CIA employees, as the author of the article is.
 

LTC8K6

Lifer
Mar 10, 2004
28,520
1,575
126

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,647
27
91
Well, they did have a competition to build the JSF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-32

Yeah, but according to the article, the "competition" was merely a formality:

Lockheed Martin won the contract—worth more than $200 billion—after the much-chronicled “Battle of the X-Planes.” In truth, it was not much of a competition. Boeing’s X-32, the product of a mere four years’ work, paled next to Lockheed’s X-35, which had been in the works in one form or another since the mid-1980s, thanks to untold millions in black-budget funds the company had received from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) to develop a supersonic short-takeoff and vertical-landing aircraft.
 

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
They keep finding that you can get 80% of the capability at 20% of the cost by cramming modern avionics into 80s airframes...which is downright embarrassing for the defense contractors.

Ironically, the F-4 was in the same boat. There was an Israeli F-4E retrofitted with PW1120s that made it almost about as good as an F/A-18 in terms of general flight performance. The problem with older airframes is lack of decent internal weapons carriage for good stealth characteristics. With decent ingenuity it can be overcome to a small degree with conformal fuel tanks with weapons bays like on the new F-15SE Silent Eagle.

And I still think it's a shame the F-16XL never made it into production. The only reason to keep the standard F-16 around was for it's better dogfighting performance, but for everything else, the XL was just so much better.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,647
27
91
So Boeing's new X-32 lost out to a plane that was designed long ago?

No, Boeing basically showed up for a particle physics final early Friday morning after studying for four hours.

Lockheed basically showed up as:

 

Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
2,012
23
81
For ten cookies can anyone guess what these two have in common?




They both involve lots of spinning. That cluster bomb (don't remember the designation) is one hell of a clusterf*** for anyone on the receiving end, that's for damn sure.

Edit: CBU-97
 
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