Amish family forced to flee America.

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,562
7,618
136
Are adults allowed to refuse treatment?

Why can guardians not share the same privilege? If we don't let them make that choice, does this precedent declare that children are owned by the State?
 

tommo123

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2005
2,617
48
91
Yet one can still have an abortion.

yea and why not? they're aborting a bunch of cells, nothing more. they have the potential to become more but they won't. just like the sperm i shoot into some cleenex
 

nanette1985

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2005
4,209
2
0
Turns out these folks are relatives of mine. Another part of the story is that another child in the community had this same leukemia a while ago, and the group did opt for chemo. And that child died a horrible painful death.

Also, we anabapists don't believe in charity or in medical insurance. So all of this is being paid for in cash. Everyone in the community puts in some money towards the total bill. Including me.

The decision of what treatment to persue isn't up to the immediate family. It's made by the entire community.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I find it interesting that Incorruptible supports France's decision to ban burkas - "those radical Muslims" - but finds it to be a governmental intrusion here to *not allow parents to let their child die of a treatable illness.

edit: *not
 
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SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
If you agree with the family you're retarded. Plain and simple.

Its fairly well known in med ethics that if a parent denies life saving treatment all you need is a court order to resume. The kind of lymphoma she has is very treatable with proper chemo, she'll die without it.


As for the alternative treatments they are referencing? Ask Steve Jobs, he will tell you about their effectiveness.

This. We have pretty clear laws that say no matter how retarded your religion is children get medical treatment that is needed.
It is not the child's fault her parents are fuckall's who want to believe their kid should die so they can continue to hold land tax free and sell quilts at a 10000x mark up.

I have a friend who just completed residency out in akron/canton not far from the Ohio Amish country and they would always have trainwreck's rolling in from there that area.

They spend months practicing voodoo and faith healing until the person is on the brink of death from simple illnesses then run them into the hospital where they are life flighted and healed.. all at the taxpayer's expense.

All that said.. Children get medicine. No matter how fucking stupid you are.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Are adults allowed to refuse treatment?

Why can guardians not share the same privilege? If we don't let them make that choice, does this precedent declare that children are owned by the State?

Adults can refuse whatever the fuck they want.
Anyone under 18 gets the proper medical care which may include things like hospice and palliation if that is the most reasonable medical decision.


Would you all be so butthurt if this was Satanist refusing medical treatment?
Or even better Muslims?
Fact is no matter what you believe, the child gets the proper medical treatment. The courts have been absolute on this.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
I'm sure the National Inquirer runs factual articles too. What would you say to me if I started posting National Inquirer articles to prove my point? Exactly.

axcutally the NE does post a lot of factual stories. they have been sued so much in the past that they cleaned up their act.
 

xaeniac

Golden Member
Feb 4, 2005
1,641
14
81
yea and why not? they're aborting a bunch of cells, nothing more. they have the potential to become more but they won't. just like the sperm i shoot into some cleenex

I don't want to take this thread in the wrong direction, but you are watering down the fact that many abortions are not done at this stage, but much later. Good try on attempting to block an image of a baby in your mind.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
I don't want to take this thread in the wrong direction, but you are watering down the fact that many abortions are not done at this stage, but much later. Good try on attempting to block an image of a baby in your mind.

Actually, a supermajority of abortions are done in these stages-

In 2008, most (62.8%) abortions were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation, and 91.4% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm

Nice try though!
 

tommo123

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2005
2,617
48
91
I don't want to take this thread in the wrong direction, but you are watering down the fact that many abortions are not done at this stage, but much later. Good try on attempting to block an image of a baby in your mind.

to be honest, i don't care either way. i don't have kids and don't want any. am also quite desensitised to pretty much everything (surprises myself at times). especially considering that people don't consider kids truly self aware until they're around 5. until that point they're animals basically.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
to be honest, i don't care either way. i don't have kids and don't want any. am also quite desensitised to pretty much everything (surprises myself at times). especially considering that people don't consider kids truly self aware until they're around 5. until that point they're animals basically.

IIRC, children usually become self aware between 2 and 3 years. The study for this is fairly simple: hold a mirror in front of a child. If the child realizes it is himself in the reflection, they are self aware. A child certainly realizes this before age 5, for what its worth.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
IIRC, children usually become self aware between 2 and 3 years. The study for this is fairly simple: hold a mirror in front of a child. If the child realizes it is himself in the reflection, they are self aware. A child certainly realizes this before age 5, for what its worth.

I don't think he was being literal. I think it was just something that he and others feel.
 

SheHateMe

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2012
7,251
20
81
Another part of the story is that another child in the community had this same leukemia a while ago, and the group did opt for chemo. And that child died a horrible painful death.

Chemo treatment is never guaranteed to beat cancer, but it is a good chance against it. You think this child won't die in agony while her family watches? While he/she is not being treated for symptoms of Leukemia? Its not a cold....this is cancer of the blood cells.

I doubt the child died a "horrible painful death" as there are medications that can be given to make the patient comfortable...unless of course, your parent's are religious nuts who refuse the treatment. My grandmother died horribly from Pancreatic cancer in 2008, she was not in horrible pain until she told the doctors that she wanted to go home and refused further treatment. She made it 3 days. She's been fighting it for 4 years.

Also, we anabapists don't believe in charity or in medical insurance. So all of this is being paid for in cash. Everyone in the community puts in some money towards the total bill. Including me.

The decision of what treatment to persue isn't up to the immediate family. It's made by the entire community.

What are you on the internet? Why do you have a computer? I thought the amish were against technology that interferes with their culture?

Also, I don't mean to attack you...but I distinctly remember you saying you were on Disability in OT. You don't believe in charity or medical insurance but you can take SS? How does that work?

If you are the wrong person who said that, forgive me....but I am fairly certain that it was you.

You've also said several times in OT that you've gotten treatments in hospitals for your condition. How is it fair then that you can get treatment but an amish child is not allowed some sort of relief from their condition?

That seems a bit hypocritical, no? Modern Medicine can improve your quality of life but not a child's?
 
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Apr 27, 2012
10,086
58
86
I find it interesting that Incorruptible supports France's decision to ban burkas - "those radical Muslims" - but finds it to be a governmental intrusion here to *not allow parents to let their child die of a treatable illness.

edit: *not

The burka issue is much different considering what's happening in France and Europe. There were riots and no-go zones.

My issue with those two was dismissing the OP and just writing him off. The parents should get proper treatment for the child.
 

nanette1985

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2005
4,209
2
0
Chemo treatment is never guaranteed to beat cancer, but it is a good chance against it. You think this child won't die in agony while her family watches? While he/she is not being treated for symptoms of Leukemia? Its not a cold....this is cancer of the blood cells.

I doubt the child died a "horrible painful death" as there are medications that can be given to make the patient comfortable...unless of course, your parent's are religious nuts who refuse the treatment. My grandmother died horribly from Pancreatic cancer in 2008, she was not in horrible pain until she told the doctors that she wanted to go home and refused further treatment. She made it 3 days. She's been fighting it for 4 years.


What are you on the internet? Why do you have a computer? I thought the amish were against technology that interferes with their culture?

Also, I don't mean to attack you...but I distinctly remember you saying you were on Disability in OT. You don't believe in charity or medical insurance but you can take SS? How does that work?

If you are the wrong person who said that, forgive me....but I am fairly certain that it was you.

You've also said several times in OT that you've gotten treatments in hospitals for your condition. How is it fair then that you can get treatment but an amish child is not allowed some sort of relief from their condition?

That seems a bit hypocritical, no? Modern Medicine can improve your quality of life but not a child's?

No you are right.

I grew up in a strict Mennonite community but I left that when I went to college. I don't agree with their teachings. I do keep in touch with them because they're my family. One of my older brothers, the currentElder of our community mailed me a letter about the hershberger's. They don't use the internet but in an emergency I can get a phone message to them through one of their non-Mennonite neighbors who has a phone.

When I went out into the real world I dealt with a lot of things such as work, taxes, and so on. I paid into SS, it'd be silly not to take advantage of it.
I've always paid all of my own and my family's medical bills. And when I ran my own businesses, I always paid medical insurance for all of my employees. That's the way it seems to work out here.

It's not always easy to blend the world of my family and the world out here. Sometimes I make mistakes.

Very sorry to hear about your grandmother with pancreatic cancer. Cancer sucks.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,513
24
76
No you are right.

I grew up in a strict Mennonite community but I left that when I went to college. I don't agree with their teachings. I do keep in touch with them because they're my family. One of my older brothers, the currentElder of our community mailed me a letter about the hershberger's. They don't use the internet but in an emergency I can get a phone message to them through one of their non-Mennonite neighbors who has a phone.

When I went out into the real world I dealt with a lot of things such as work, taxes, and so on. I paid into SS, it'd be silly not to take advantage of it.
I've always paid all of my own and my family's medical bills. And when I ran my own businesses, I always paid medical insurance for all of my employees. That's the way it seems to work out here.

It's not always easy to blend the world of my family and the world out here. Sometimes I make mistakes.

Very sorry to hear about your grandmother with pancreatic cancer. Cancer sucks.

Seems like a sensible and rational approach. What is your thoughts on the proliferation of Amish and Mennonite reality shows? Are they viewed by the other communities as good or bad on the whole? Thanks.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
It's the Amish, who gives a flying fuck? We're talking about the people who let their horses shit on the road, pump raw human sewerage on to their fields, are incredibly inbred, can vote but are exempt from the draft...

And many of them have ongoing grudges with the non-amish people around them (one of the amish farmers that was near where I grew up would intentionally wreck newly paved roads.)

Also, this seems justified. Natural remedies don't work, and will result in the kid dying. Chemo isn't a nice thing but it beats dying.
 

nanette1985

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2005
4,209
2
0
Seems like a sensible and rational approach. What is your thoughts on the proliferation of Amish and Mennonite reality shows? Are they viewed by the other communities as good or bad on the whole? Thanks.

Can't speak for all anabaptists - but in my family, the few that have seen the shows consider them amusing, insulting, and nonsense.

Since the community is small and closely interrelated, the folks on the shows who say they are really Amish tend to be people that we know. And are viewed as bad, for lying.

People have been making fun of Amish and Mennonites for a long time. These shows are just more silliness.
 
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