News Ampere Altra Launched with 80 Arm Cores for the Cloud(Performance Estimates)

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name99

Senior member
Sep 11, 2010
441
332
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Yes, and its been that way forever. Back in the RISC workstation days when you'd see PA-RISC or Alpha or POWER gain a temporary advantage, it never moved the market much - the rule of thumb was you needed a 2x advantage in performance or half price for same performance to get people to consider going through the hassle of migration. The market shares moved around a bit but didn't make any huge moves until Intel was able to deliver that 'half price for same performance' when their fab advantage became too much for the RISC workstation model to survive.

Some people want to point to these Ampere results and say "well, ARM has caught up, and costs less, x86 is doomed". Things don't happen that quickly, the people making the multi million dollar purchase decisions are cautious by nature, and aren't going to make such a choice without a lot of study and preparation and seeing others with a higher risk tolerance take the plunge first.

I'd put it differently.
People talk about diversity in CPUs as though that's some sort of wonderful flower that everybody wants -- OEMs want to support 5 different CPUs, customers want to own seven different OS's running on 8 different cores.
Utter nonsense! Diversity is a massive expensive PITA -- for OEMs, for developers, for customers.

There are all sorts of consequences of this fact (for how Apple does things, for RISC-C's future, for why MS and Intel made so many mistakes) but the one I want to focus on right now is that a non-obvious consequence of this is that change, when it happens, happens very fast.
People's mental model of CPU change is something like a linear increase in the number of competitor CPUs every year, so maybe ARM server fraction was 0% in 2018, maybe is 90% in 2038, and between those two dates it increases linearly.
I don't think that's correct because of the costs of diversity. Rather what happens is more like supercritical heating -- there will be some period of time during which ARM is clearly better by almost every criterion because it's still the *other*, and supporting two things is a hassle. Then, very rapidly (like over two or three years) that will flip. Individuals and companies will make the experiment, see that it works, solve the stupid lingering bugs and incompatibilities, and over a two or three year buying cycle transition close to their entire fleet.

This has two consequences:
- yes, there is an element of baseline delay. This year and next are that delay. This is the delay as cloud SW gets ported to Graviton, as FOSS gets ported to M1, as one developer after another tries either Graviton or M1 and discovers that not only is ARMv8 pleasant to work with, it also delivers everything promised.
- BUT it also means that when the transitions come, they will come fast, much faster than expected. Look at how opinion about Apple going ARM flipped. For years it was obvious (to those of us who follow Apple and understand the engineering) that it would happen; but most of the world (including much of the supposedly computing thought-leader world) threw up one reason or another why it wouldn't -- x86 emulation would be impossibly slow and work badly; people would demand to run Windows; the Apple CPUs would just have to be slower than Intel; blah blah. All vaguely plausible -- if you know nothing about Apple, nothing about ARM, and are uninterested in ever learning.

But what happened? Apple ships M1 and over the course of a month these people are forced to confront reality, to give up their illusions. And sure, you get the idiot denialists still going on about one stupid complaint or another. But most people do in fact accept reality when it bangs them hard enough. In other words you didn't get a slow growth in acceptance that M1 was better; you got a total flip in people's world pictures within a month.

This does't mean everyone will buy M1's tomorrow. People have buying schedules, they may (temporarily) have compelling reasons to stick with what's known and works, they may have reasons to wait for the M1X or M2 or even M3. But the argument two months ago was "I can't see how Apple switching to ARM makes sense"; within two months that changed to "I don't want to buy an ARM Mac because reasons, but I can see how it will be very popular".

That's what will happen with ARM generically over 2021.
- Graviton3 will make the AWS proposition so compelling that no-one will want to stay on the x86 virtual machines
- M1X then M2 will show what can be done on the desktop if you're willing to burn a little more power
- Even ARM's cores lagging behind Apple like X1 and V1 will be good enough that people will start to consider their usability in various situations (Graviton2 and Altra, with pre X1/V1 cores, show this)
- the FOSS missing pieces will be filled in
- MS will finally (ten years late) get their ARM Windows and software story together (M1 has basically forced this)

By end of 2021 to be in denial about ARM's future will be like being in denial about M1 today -- it's possible if you want to behave like an idiot, but it won't be a mainstream position.
At which point it's just a question of the length of buying cycles.
 
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name99

Senior member
Sep 11, 2010
441
332
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Interesting. Pity nobody's bothered incorporating it into available designs yet. So those with an ARMv8 perpetual license will have that option in the future? You sure it's not linked intrinsically to a different license?



The allegations I have read claim that it is an ISA extension running on the core itself (rather than as a part of the fixed-function hardware units in the SoC).

We now know a *lot* more than a few days ago:
and the whole successor threads
 

name99

Senior member
Sep 11, 2010
441
332
136
If SVE2 is effectively locked-up behind ARMv9 and its successors, then ARMv8 license holders will be stuck on NEON forever. Unless they can somehow incorporate a different SIMD ISA extension without violating their license. Which Apple sort-of did with AMX.

What are you talking about???
No "SVE2 is locked-up behind ARMv9" exists anywhere except in your imagination.
SVE and SVE2 are part of ARMv8, have been since the day they were announced.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,791
11,133
136
SVE and SVE2 are part of ARMv8, have been since the day they were announced.

SVE2 hasn't been implemented in any existing ARMv8 silicon. SVE has, by Fujitsu, who practically invented the standard themselves. If the first reference ARM designs to actually use SVE2 are ARMv9, it stands to reason that SVE2 might have been part of the ARMv9 standard (and rolled up in the relevant licenses).

If in fact SVE2 is a part of ARMv8 (and someone has already addressed this point, so thanks for the redundancy) then the perpetual license holders have one more tool available in case nVidia tries something stupid.

By the way, good job trying to turn an Altera thread into a rant about the M1:

But what happened? Apple ships M1 and over the course of a month these people are forced to confront reality, to give up their illusions. And sure, you get the idiot denialists still going on about one stupid complaint or another. But most people do in fact accept reality when it bangs them hard enough. In other words you didn't get a slow growth in acceptance that M1 was better; you got a total flip in people's world pictures within a month.

Pfft.
 
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name99

Senior member
Sep 11, 2010
441
332
136
SVE2 hasn't been implemented in any existing ARMv8 silicon. SVE has, by Fujitsu, who practically invented the standard themselves. If the first reference ARM designs to actually use SVE2 are ARMv9, it stands to reason that SVE2 might have been part of the ARMv9 standard (and rolled up in the relevant licenses).

If in fact SVE2 is a part of ARMv8 (and someone has already addressed this point, so thanks for the redundancy) then the perpetual license holders have one more tool available in case nVidia tries something stupid.

By the way, good job trying to turn an Altera thread into a rant about the M1:



Pfft.
Just as a future hint — it doesn’t come across as very impressive when your complaint that someone has hijacked a thread gets the topic of the thread wrong... The CPU is called Altra not Altera.

I’ll ignore the fact that you clearly didn’t understand my comment, since one thing the internet has made amply clear to all of us is that you can’t explain calculus to a cat. All you can do is wait for him to realize that his food bowl has become empty.
 

Schmide

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2002
5,588
719
126
snip

at phoronix (not an image graph so no linky)

Code:
AMD EPYC 7742 2P                200.99
Intel Xeon Platinum 8280 2P     229.32
Ampere Altra Q80 - 33 2P        282.64
snip

So after watching serverthehome Altra Q80 - 33 2P review, I believe that the intel and ampere numbers in the phoronix review are mixed up.

 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,791
11,133
136
Just as a future hint — it doesn’t come across as very impressive when your complaint that someone has hijacked a thread gets the topic of the thread wrong... The CPU is called Altra not Altera.

Point taken, though it should be obvious what I'm talking about, and that it's quite on-topic, unlike anything having to do with Apple.

I’ll ignore the fact that you clearly didn’t understand my comment, since one thing the internet has made amply clear to all of us is that you can’t explain calculus to a cat. All you can do is wait for him to realize that his food bowl has become empty.

Or you can just talk down to people without addressing the fact that they DO understand your comment. @Doug S already addressed my inquiries about whether SVE2 is included in ARMv8 (apparently it is, despite it not being featured in any ARMv8 reference designs).
 

Nothingness

Platinum Member
Jul 3, 2013
2,720
1,351
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@Doug S already addressed my inquiries about whether SVE2 is included in ARMv8 (apparently it is, despite it not being featured in any ARMv8 reference designs).
And to remove that doubt you still are in, what about looking into the ARM Architecture Reference Manual which explictly states that SVE is part of ARMv8.2 in section A2.12?
 

moinmoin

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2017
4,993
7,763
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Disappointing that they weren't allowed to publish power consumption measurements. Altra as a product is very competitive with Rome, though at a per core level (it got 25% more cores) it falls behind by quite a margin. I/O performance seems to be close enough to Rome. Power consumption could possibly be Altra's big unique selling point against Rome but for confirmation either way we'll have to wait more.
 

name99

Senior member
Sep 11, 2010
441
332
136
Point taken, though it should be obvious what I'm talking about, and that it's quite on-topic, unlike anything having to do with Apple.



Or you can just talk down to people without addressing the fact that they DO understand your comment. @Doug S already addressed my inquiries about whether SVE2 is included in ARMv8 (apparently it is, despite it not being featured in any ARMv8 reference designs).

(a) You assume people read these threads in a particular order and so know what others have said in reply. That's a bad assumption.
There are many ways that you land up thrown into the middle of a thread. One common one is looking at one's comments that were replied to. Another is starting at the where you ended reading yesterday and working forwards, rather than starting at the end and working backwards.

(b) What I said is not talking down to people, it is a statement of resignation.
The naive model of human disagreement is that people may differ regarding values, but they are agree on everything else, from facts on upward.
But a more realistic model is that not only do people disagree about about values, they disagree about facts, and not even that, they disagree about meta-issues: about what counts as logic, what counts as evidence, what the point of discussion even is.
With disagreement that extreme some differences really are cats and calculus -- I can not explain my point if the person to whom I'm trying to explain it considers the very subject illegitimate, or considers the types of evidence presented to be irrelevant and unimportant, or considers certain rhetorical moves to trump all others.

We'd probably all be better off internalizing that point and accepting (usually very early) that a discussion has hit that point of incommensurability.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,791
11,133
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(a) You assume people read these threads in a particular order

Yeah we're done. Thanks for playing.

@Nothingness

I've perused the reference manual, which is apparently up-to-date through 2020. It only lists SVE as part of the ARMv8-A Architecture Extensions. To go further, the document highlights how SVE was added as a part of ARMv8.2, which was an update to the standard introduced in 2017. SVE2 wasn't introduced until 2019. So I poked around in the .pdf associated with SVE2's (and TME's) announcements:


On the second page (which is set up as a slide deck), it says:

The Armv8
-
A architecture advances annually with relatively small
-
scale “ticks”.

Armv8.5
-
A is the latest version, announced in September 2018.

But this presentation is not about the next annual architecture tick.

Some architectural features take much longer than the annual cadence to research and develop.

Which appears to be a roundabout way of saying, "this won't be a part of ARMv8.x". The rest of the document goes on to discuss SVE and SVE2 vs. NEON without really saying whether it will be part of the ARMv8 or ARMv9 standard.
 
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