Question 'Ampere'/Next-gen gaming uarch speculation thread

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Ottonomous

Senior member
May 15, 2014
559
292
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How much is the Samsung 7nm EUV process expected to provide in terms of gains?
How will the RTX components be scaled/developed?
Any major architectural enhancements expected?
Will VRAM be bumped to 16/12/12 for the top three?
Will there be further fragmentation in the lineup? (Keeping turing at cheaper prices, while offering 'beefed up RTX' options at the top?)
Will the top card be capable of >4K60, at least 90?
Would Nvidia ever consider an HBM implementation in the gaming lineup?
Will Nvidia introduce new proprietary technologies again?

Sorry if imprudent/uncalled for, just interested in the forum member's thoughts.
 

Konan

Senior member
Jul 28, 2017
360
291
106
Also Im surprised nobody is bringing up the second info Kopite today wrote.

GDDR6X for Next gen Gaming cards, with more than 20 Gbps?

Well there is no mention from any maker of having 18Gbps that is in production that I know of or could find. I know Samsung mentioned that GDDR6 could scale to 18Gbps a long time ago. But no news about anything in production (e.g. Hynix, Micron - If you were to buy the 16 Gbps GDDR6 chips that Micron is now sampling for use with a 384-bit bus, that would force you to use at least 24 GB )

GDDR6x seems a stretch but possible.

I'd agree about the 300W+ from the top end of Ampere gaming cards - it's going to put a ton of heat out, GDDR6 runs hot as is, so if speed bumps ups there lets hope cooling is good.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,015
6,465
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They said specifically, that bulk of 7 NM GPUs will be manufactured on TSMC process.


Not that ALL of their next gen GPUs will be manufactured at TSMC's 7 nm process.

It's always a little hard to tell with CEO statements, because when you actually look at what they've said it's usually vague or noncommittal, but still crafted so that people will interpret them in a particular way.

It's also possible to assume that all of the various rumors have a bit of truth to them in if you're willing to accept the following scenario (which I don't have any evidence for and is merely constructed to square with the various rumors) as what happened:

Originally NVidia had planned to use Samsung for the consumer cards and possibly a separate architecture as well. This didn't pan out for whatever reason and so some (or even all) of them have been abandoned. Because GA100 was made on TSMC, they could take what they had to adapt it for consumer Ampere cards without having to redo a lot of work that porting a completely different architecture to a new node would entail. More wafer supply opened up and NVidia decided to jump on it.

Is that what really happened? I have no idea and NVidia generally runs a tight enough operation that solid leaks about their plans don't emerge too often. We have seen enough examples in the past where these companies have had to pivot for one reason or another and it's certainly possible that something like this happened with NVidia where plans had to change.
 

DXDiag

Member
Nov 12, 2017
165
121
116
It's not logical at all for a company to tape out two designs of the same architecture from two different foundries using two different nodes, it's waste of resources and money.

Ampere is the basis for both HPC and Gaming GPUs, if HPC is made on 7nm from TSMC, then gaming GPUs will be made on the same node.
 

gdansk

Platinum Member
Feb 8, 2011
2,492
3,395
136
It's not logical at all for a company to tape out two designs of the same architecture from two different foundries using two different nodes, it's waste of resources and money.

Ampere is the basis for both HPC and Gaming GPUs, if HPC is made on 7nm from TSMC, then gaming GPUs will be made on the same node.
Although that did happen, to a lesser degree, for Pascal. Apparently GP107/GP108 were made by Samsung.
 

itsmydamnation

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2011
2,867
3,418
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It's not logical at all for a company to tape out two designs of the same architecture from two different foundries using two different nodes,
why isn't it logical?

it's waste of resources and money.
Why is it?

Where are the costs within development, how does process availability align to design and implementation cycles etc.

Just look at amd with renior vs vega20 and matisse.
They doubled transistor density , you dont think they moved/changed processes/design rules under the 7 nm banner for the same core designs?
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,765
4,668
136
It's not logical at all for a company to tape out two designs of the same architecture from two different foundries using two different nodes, it's waste of resources and money.

Ampere is the basis for both HPC and Gaming GPUs, if HPC is made on 7nm from TSMC, then gaming GPUs will be made on the same node.
If Nvidia has beeen caught with their pants down in terms of wafer capacity - its absolutely logical, especially considering they already taped out products at Samsung's 8 nm LPP process: DGX Orin(I think thats how its called?).
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,015
6,465
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It's not logical at all for a company to tape out two designs of the same architecture from two different foundries using two different nodes, it's waste of resources and money.

Ampere is the basis for both HPC and Gaming GPUs, if HPC is made on 7nm from TSMC, then gaming GPUs will be made on the same node.

I guess I should have been a little more explicit, but the theory would also include that Ampere wasn't originally intended to be the consumer line as well, or that even though they were both called Ampere there would be some differences as well. Sure it makes more sense to use a single fab, but if there aren't enough wafers then it just isn't possible and necessitates using multiple foundries.

Of course there are other explanations for why NVidia might do that as well. There's a lot of hardware that GA100 doesn't include that would need to go into the consumer cards (e.g., ray tracing) and there's some extra stuff in GA100 that wouldn't go in the consumer cards. Even though the underlying architecture can be the same, there would be enough differences where doing tape outs on two different foundries wouldn't be an issue.

You also have to look at it from the perspective of what NVidia might have to do, not what they'd ideally like to do. It's been known for a while that they didn't get a lot of wafers at TSMC, though this may have changed more recently, and their plans with it. If it comes down to a limited number of wafers then they don't have much of a choice but to tape out designs on two different nodes.

It's the same as AMD releasing Radeon VII at CES. They probably originally intended to be able to announce Navi, but it wasn't ready and they needed a 7 nm GPU to go along with their 7 nm CPUs. So they took an enterprise card and made a limited edition consumer part out of it. No one is going to claim that they planned for that all along, but circumstances made it necessary.

Like I said, this was a theory designed entirely to square with all of the rumors, not based on any particular insider knowledge. It's an exercise is assuming that all the big rumors were true and figuring out how things had to go down for those rumors to have been true as opposed to looking at the actual outcome and just deciding that any rumors which didn't support it were false all along.

I wouldn't put any particular faith in it and it doesn't really matter. Arguing over what might have been isn't terribly useful. This was just an interesting thought experiment on my part.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
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It's not logical at all for a company to tape out two designs of the same architecture from two different foundries using two different nodes, it's waste of resources and money.

Ampere is the basis for both HPC and Gaming GPUs, if HPC is made on 7nm from TSMC, then gaming GPUs will be made on the same node.

How do you know they are the same architecture? Ampere is just a marketing name and has no bearing on the actual chips. And we already know that GA100 is missing many things that would make it a video card (Its just a compute card, no display functionality, no RT, etc).
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
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They made a point of explicitly saying they're going to be. That's after explicitly splitting them up last time round.

Obviously partially marketing as the actual hardware will look very different indeed but still probably meaningful.
 

tajoh111

Senior member
Mar 28, 2005
305
323
136
I guess I should have been a little more explicit, but the theory would also include that Ampere wasn't originally intended to be the consumer line as well, or that even though they were both called Ampere there would be some differences as well. Sure it makes more sense to use a single fab, but if there aren't enough wafers then it just isn't possible and necessitates using multiple foundries.

Of course there are other explanations for why NVidia might do that as well. There's a lot of hardware that GA100 doesn't include that would need to go into the consumer cards (e.g., ray tracing) and there's some extra stuff in GA100 that wouldn't go in the consumer cards. Even though the underlying architecture can be the same, there would be enough differences where doing tape outs on two different foundries wouldn't be an issue.

You also have to look at it from the perspective of what NVidia might have to do, not what they'd ideally like to do. It's been known for a while that they didn't get a lot of wafers at TSMC, though this may have changed more recently, and their plans with it. If it comes down to a limited number of wafers then they don't have much of a choice but to tape out designs on two different nodes.

It's the same as AMD releasing Radeon VII at CES. They probably originally intended to be able to announce Navi, but it wasn't ready and they needed a 7 nm GPU to go along with their 7 nm CPUs. So they took an enterprise card and made a limited edition consumer part out of it. No one is going to claim that they planned for that all along, but circumstances made it necessary.

Like I said, this was a theory designed entirely to square with all of the rumors, not based on any particular insider knowledge. It's an exercise is assuming that all the big rumors were true and figuring out how things had to go down for those rumors to have been true as opposed to looking at the actual outcome and just deciding that any rumors which didn't support it were false all along.

I wouldn't put any particular faith in it and it doesn't really matter. Arguing over what might have been isn't terribly useful. This was just an interesting thought experiment on my part.

I think everyone here is underestimating Nvidia ability to execute as a company.

Over the last 6 months, Nvidia has been executing incredibly well and their stock and revenue growth is reflecting this.

This is also showing in their future outlooks for Q2. While AMD is expecting around a 20% improvement year on year, Nvidia is expecting around a 40% increase year on year. AMD stock fell while Nvidia stock grew after there quarterly reports were announced.

I think the strong AMD bias on these forums tend to inflate expectations for AMD while magnifying their strengths. The opposite happen for Nvidia on this forum where their strengths and successes are minimized, while their faults and mistakes are magnified. This carries over to extrapolations as well. Radeon VII for example while built on 7nm only increased fp32 by 9% compared to Vega 64 while consuming the same power. People on this forum were still really impressed on it. On the other hand people people on this forum look at the power consumption numbers and the least impressive parts of A100 increases and extrapolated to make negative predictions on Nvidia gaming cards. Looking at where Nvidia growth is happening and where it is going to take place in Q2, you can tell A100 is going to be a smashing success with Nvidia datacenter revenue and professional visualization eclipsing AMD entire revenue.

Taking there financial success into account and their ability to generally not miss performance expectations by a mile(fury X and Vega), you can see Nvidia is running exceptionally well and Turing is doing very well to compete against AMD while AMD has a nodal advantage. There is a reason why Nvidia CEO has won not only one of the best CEO awards of the year, but the very top honor of best CEO of the year. A honor even Lisa Su has not achieved.


One has to realize that there likely was not enough capacity in 2018 for Nvidia to launch Turing regardless of AMD buying wafers and eating that capacity. Turing would have likely launched in June if it wasn't for the over supply of Pascal cards.

If Nvidia launched their cards on 7nm, they would have run into big supply constraints. Nvidia cost of goods sold is as high as AMD which means that the amount they spend on wafers isn't all that different than AMD's. So launching a product on 7nm, well before AMD launched their 7nm products would have caused Nvidia to run into severe supply constraints since AMD already ran into supply constraints for products launched in 2019 when availability would have been better.

For their next generation, Nvidia isn't going to mess around and underestimate AMD. We have to remember, Nvidia is nothing like Intel in terms of execution. They are aggressive and do a much better job of guarding their markets.

Nvidia knew how much 7nm wafers they need for their products years ago and would have likely purchased them way ahead of time. I doubt that they made their products on Samsung's 8nm, screwed up and are not redoing everything on TSMC 7nm. That is simply incompetence and considering the freed up capacity at TSMC from Apple's move to 5nm, Nvidia likely planned to use TSMC 7nm from the start as it what they have always used for the launch of most of their chips and TSMC wanting to retain Nvidia as a customer, particularly with Apple moving to 5nm.

Nvidia knows how to execute and their 2nd quarter 3.66 billion outlook which have been very accurate aside from the mining debacle, show this. AMD is only showing a modest 1.85 billion dollar outlook for Q2.
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,841
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Again, nVidia was planning to use Samsung 7 nm for the bulk of the gaming cards. They had to bail because Samsung couldn't deliver. Whether they chose to redo the chips on SS 8 or TSMC 7 we will have to see.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
5,611
8,826
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This is also showing in their future outlooks for Q2. While AMD is expecting around a 20% improvement year on year, Nvidia is expecting around a 40% increase year on year. AMD stock fell while Nvidia stock grew after there quarterly reports were announced.

A good part of their 40% revenue increase is coming from their recent acquisition. If you take that revenue out of next quarter, it's more like a 24% improvement. Still really good though and Nvidia's execution has been very good. Their 1Q data center revenue was really strong, even to a surprising degree. It will be interesting to see how everything shakes out as the market continues to evolve over the next few years.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
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why isn't it logical?


Why is it?

Where are the costs within development, how does process availability align to design and implementation cycles etc.

Just look at amd with renior vs vega20 and matisse.
They doubled transistor density , you dont think they moved/changed processes/design rules under the 7 nm banner for the same core designs?
Add to that; there was word that SS was giving away a free mask set for high profile design wins - that's a pretty big inducement. If 7nm worked out, NV would have had a cost advantage.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,765
4,668
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Yeah, and reading that post again he says "It was based on Samsung 10nm". So he implies a change but doesn't specifically say so. I guess he must be unsure. So, we are stuck waiting for confirmation on which particular GPU will be manufactured where. Bummer.
8 nm LPP is a version of 10 nm Samsung's process. Its not full 7 nm EUV ported back. Its similar story like for 12 nm FFN from TSMC that Turing and Volta were made on.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,015
6,465
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I think everyone here is underestimating Nvidia ability to execute as a company. . .I think the strong AMD bias on these forums tend to inflate expectations for AMD while magnifying their strengths. The opposite happen for Nvidia on this forum where their strengths and successes are minimized, while their faults and mistakes are magnified.

I don't think this is the case. I would say that it's an issue of AMD's GPUs being generally below expectations for so long that every time they have something new on the horizon a lot of hype is generated and there's a general excitement that maybe they'll finally hit one out of the park, especially after Zen showed that they could make a big comeback. NVidia just executes well and if people seem more sour on them it's because they have no qualms with charging a premium for their products that AMD can't compete with.

Radeon VII for example while built on 7nm only increased fp32 by 9% compared to Vega 64 while consuming the same power. People on this forum were still really impressed on it.

There may have been a few people who thought it was okay, but I remember most of the people ripping it to shreds and pointing out exactly how underwhelming it was and that AMD really needed to get off of GCN in order to be able to hope to compete.

Thinking that NVidia may have not had something work out and that they had to change plans doesn't mean that they can't execute. If they did have something go wrong, being able to adjust course and not suffer any serious adverse consequences speaks more to being a well run company that can execute. Anyone can do well when it's a smooth road with no obstacles, but being able to navigate a more treacherous path is what indicates skill.

If NVidia weren't capable of executing then you'd have to ask why they aren't in the same position as Intel. I think it's pretty clear that as a company they don't care if they are quite far ahead of the competition, because they've consistently shown that they're going to keep pushing forward with their vision and aren't content to rest of their laurels.
 
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
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The recent earnings boost is likely related to the fact that PC sales are boosted due to everybody staying at home and datacenters needing to handle the increased demand.

So we have to somehow take that effect out to see what is due to execution and what is not.

Although Nvidia unlike Intel are executing, they are still acting like a company that has absolute dominance. You cannot push Ray Tracing and Tensor Cores this hard otherwise.

On one hand you can see this as them pushing the technical envelope. On the other hand, you can see this as a way of throwing off competitors - now AMD/Intel has to worry about RT/Tensor Core performance.
 

xpea

Senior member
Feb 14, 2014
449
150
116
Although Nvidia unlike Intel are executing, they are still acting like a company that has absolute dominance. You cannot push Ray Tracing and Tensor Cores this hard otherwise.

On one hand you can see this as them pushing the technical envelope. On the other hand, you can see this as a way of throwing off competitors - now AMD/Intel has to worry about RT/Tensor Core performance.
And it's just the beginning...
Nvidia ReSTIR renders millions of lights in real time:
https://news.developer.nvidia.com/rendering-millions-of-dynamics-lights-in-realtime/
https://developer.download.nvidia.com/devblogs/ReSTIR.pdf

 

Det0x

Golden Member
Sep 11, 2014
1,063
3,110
136
Realtime indeed
Nvidia said:
we implemented our approach on the GPU, rendering complex scenes containing up to 3.4 million dynamic, emissive triangles in under 50ms per frame while tracing at most 8 rays per pixel...The GPU used was a GeForce RTX 2080Ti, with the exception of the Amusement Park scene, which according to the researchers had higher memory requirements and thus required using a Titan RTX graphics card instead.
50ms per frame = 20 fps
 
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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
And it's just the beginning...
Nvidia ReSTIR renders millions of lights in real time:

Just out of interest: Are NV or anyone else still investing as much into physics? because what is more annoying than poor lights /shadows is throwing grenades and you get this grenade bouncing around and basically denying any basic laws of physics (gravity, material behavior, etc).
 
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Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
2,559
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Just out of interest: Are NV or anyone else still investing as much into physics? because what is more annoying than poor lights /shadows is throwing grenades and you get this grenade bouncing around and basically denying any basic laws of physics (gravity, material behavior, etc).

The physics are tied to the engine. The GPU has zero impact on in game physics. It really comes down to the work the engine maker puts into the physics engine. Some games use a 3rd party physics engine like Havok. Some like Unreal Engine, use their own.
 
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Tup3x

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2016
1,012
1,002
136
The physics are tied to the engine. The GPU has zero impact on in game physics. It really comes down to the work the engine maker puts into the physics engine. Some games use a 3rd party physics engine like Havok. Some like Unreal Engine, use their own.
I'm pretty sure that Unreal Engine 4 still uses PhysX 3.3 as physics engine by default. Or it was at least. Their own "Chaos" engine doesn't seem to be quite ready yet (almost though). Not sure if it's production ready yet in latest engine release.
 
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