An argument for panpsychism.

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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
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Baasha

Sounds like you've been indoctrinated. An ontological perspective was basic in pre-christian Hebrew philosophy and a major movement in the Jewish culture was anti-soteriological
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,710
6,198
126
Baasha

Sounds like you've been indoctrinated. An ontological perspective was basic in pre-christian Hebrew philosophy and a major movement in the Jewish culture was anti-soteriological

Whales have a number of features in common with fish but we don't think that whales stole these features from fish but rather that the physics of a watery environment imposes conditions that affect the morphology of movement therein.

Still, considering the ego of intellectuals and intellectual competitiveness, in an academic world where money, fame, and prestige can matter to some, the thesis that ideas are stolen from the East and not attributed strikes me as well within the realm of possibility.

But the truth here really doesn't matter to me. I am neither in need of defending the East or the West as I don't internally identify with either. I believe also that those who have found deep truth are not really interested in credit. I believe that competition is based on comparison, thinking on the lines of better and worse, good and evil, a dichotomy that does not exist beyond the world of thinking and language that creates time and separation from being.

So I agree that Baasha is indoctrinated but perhaps not in the way you imply. When I think of indoctrination I see a filling of false need, a negative feeling the indoctrination is there to push into unconsciousness. I think Baasha is Indian and has been subjected to put-downs over that fact, that he has been exposed and affected by racism toward his people and internalized it, that he excessively exaggerates the obvious greatness of his particular people over others because he was somehow humiliated. I don't think he really loves himself as an Indian because if he did he would know that the experience of love transcends race. We are all the same. So the real indoctrination I think Baasha has experienced in not how great Indian culture is, but the indoctrination that one is inferior if one is Indian. If he didn't feel that unconsciously he wouldn't have a need to prove the value of his tremendously rich culture.

At any rate, I don't have a need to defend the West and can take in his criticism and consider it. I am personally deeply indebted to Buddhism in the form it took in Japan called Zen. Zen says we are all enlightened but it's nice to know it. Enlightenment is the strawberry of being here now. The thing that keeps us from seeing is our unconscious assumptions, in my case that happiness depended on the existence of meaning in a world that has none. The need for meaning is as meaningless as everything else. The death of my deepest convictions opened a back door, a flip of consciousness and intuition.
---------------
I can't really follow this thread because I don't any longer think. I just try to put words to feelings and the thoughts I have right now in that regards are these:

There are two hemispheres of the brain, one that thinks in words and divides or breaks things down into pieces to analyze and one that sees patterns holistically without language. I think philosophy is trying to find a unification of thought that reveals what the holistic side already knows. One can, I think, pursue ideas so far out that thought ends at which point thought ends in inspiration. I think one simply burns up the circuitry or uses up all the energy available such that one shifts over to the rested hemisphere that is simply there aware of being.
 

Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,997
20
81
Baasha

Sounds like you've been indoctrinated. An ontological perspective was basic in pre-christian Hebrew philosophy and a major movement in the Jewish culture was anti-soteriological

DixyCrat,

It would be best to avoid ad-hominems and presuppositions of what I am etc. If you are capable of having a decent and civil discussion, I will engage. Otherwise, I'm not going to waste my time with the likes of you.

Hebrew/Jewish "culture" was a direct result of the plight of that group; in essence, slavery. The very nature of their philosophical underpinnings is to be relieved of their suffering at the hands of their masters/owners; this is absolutely soteriological. Jews, whose historical basis was in and around present day Israel, revolved around their release from bondage and indentured labor - "Let my people go!". It is rank dishonesty to claim that Jewish culture or philosophy was/is ontological - from this framework developed the Christian and Islamic frameworks.

Anyway, this thread is about panpsychism which is a direct mapping of the principle of Saguna Brahman in Hinduism. The sources that brought about this field spent most of their time researching Hindu/Buddhist thought and developed this framework. As part of the 'digestion' process, they first acknowledged the source and then scrambled it in fancy jargon and then eventually discarded the original source, thereby essentially stealing ideas/frameworks from other cultures.

The concept of Saguna Brahman is explained in detail within the Veda and many bhaSyAs (exegetical commentaries). Consciousness being all-pervading is a fundamental concept of Hinduism and some aspects of Buddhism. This is undeniable by anyone who has studied it with some seriousness.

Neither you nor most of the people nowadays who look at things like panpsychism would have ever studied Hindu/Buddhist thought under a learned guru. To pawn off these frameworks and schools of thought as some magical invention by westerners is disingenuous, dishonest, and highly unethical.

While we are at it, another big cornerstone of so-called "western" thought nowadays is Involution. Read about it and you will see that the person claiming all the credit for this ideological framework is a charlatan named Ken Wilber. This guy studied Sri Aurobindo's works in depth and then pondered them off as his own creations. To the ignoramuses in the west, who have neither studied Hinduism/Buddhism or saints like Sri Aurobindo, they take it at face value and it quickly gets published as a "original" idea.

Swami Vivekananda talked in detail about involution and evolution and it is one of the concepts in Kashmir Saivism (you know, before the mooslums invaded) known as nimesha (involution) and unmesha (evolution). Kashmir Saivism was in vogue in the 8th century CE. Can you tell me which "western scholar" (no such thing existed then) came up with involution that it is a cornerstone of "western thought" as this Wilber claims? This is just one example.

Is it any surprise that the 20th century's greatest religious "scholar" in the west, Mircea Eliade, studied Indian religions/thought? Is it any surprise that Carl Jung was deeply influenced by Vedanta (one of the schools of Hindu thought) and then propounded his theories? What about Huston Smith? And on and on.

I could care less about panpsychism as it is nothing new in India or Indian thought - India was, is, and always will be the epicenter of spirituality on this planet.

I am more concerned with the blatant theft of Indian thought being remapped and digested as something else - not only depriving Indian scholars their due, but it goes against the basic notion of honesty and ethics. Some "scholars" these people are.
 
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Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,997
20
81
Whales have a number of features in common with fish but we don't think that whales stole these features from fish but rather that the physics of a watery environment imposes conditions that affect the morphology of movement therein.

Still, considering the ego of intellectuals and intellectual competitiveness, in an academic world where money, fame, and prestige can matter to some, the thesis that ideas are stolen from the East and not attributed strikes me as well within the realm of possibility.

But the truth here really doesn't matter to me. I am neither in need of defending the East or the West as I don't internally identify with either. I believe also that those who have found deep truth are not really interested in credit. I believe that competition is based on comparison, thinking on the lines of better and worse, good and evil, a dichotomy that does not exist beyond the world of thinking and language that creates time and separation from being.

So I agree that Baasha is indoctrinated but perhaps not in the way you imply. When I think of indoctrination I see a filling of false need, a negative feeling the indoctrination is there to push into unconsciousness. I think Baasha is Indian and has been subjected to put-downs over that fact, that he has been exposed and affected by racism toward his people and internalized it, that he excessively exaggerates the obvious greatness of his particular people over others because he was somehow humiliated. I don't think he really loves himself as an Indian because if he did he would know that the experience of love transcends race. We are all the same. So the real indoctrination I think Baasha has experienced in not how great Indian culture is, but the indoctrination that one is inferior if one is Indian. If he didn't feel that unconsciously he wouldn't have a need to prove the value of his tremendously rich culture.

At any rate, I don't have a need to defend the West and can take in his criticism and consider it. I am personally deeply indebted to Buddhism in the form it took in Japan called Zen. Zen says we are all enlightened but it's nice to know it. Enlightenment is the strawberry of being here now. The thing that keeps us from seeing is our unconscious assumptions, in my case that happiness depended on the existence of meaning in a world that has none. The need for meaning is as meaningless as everything else. The death of my deepest convictions opened a back door, a flip of consciousness and intuition.
---------------
I can't really follow this thread because I don't any longer think. I just try to put words to feelings and the thoughts I have right now in that regards are these:

There are two hemispheres of the brain, one that thinks in words and divides or breaks things down into pieces to analyze and one that sees patterns holistically without language. I think philosophy is trying to find a unification of thought that reveals what the holistic side already knows. One can, I think, pursue ideas so far out that thought ends at which point thought ends in inspiration. I think one simply burns up the circuitry or uses up all the energy available such that one shifts over to the rested hemisphere that is simply there aware of being.

Moonbeam,

Although I appreciate your honesty with some of the things you've said, you are making wild assumptions about me. If at all there is something I despise, it is to be categorized and compartmentalized.

If you look at my post dispassionately, you will see that my point is primarily about the theft of ideologies, frameworks, and philosophies from the East that are being mapped onto Western frameworks without proper credit. This goes against the grain of scholarship world over. It is rank dishonesty.

Further, your post seems to indicate that you are still thinking in terms of binaries and stark contrasts such as race etc. This is precisely what I mean; the western mind has been trained to think in terms of black and white and sharp compartmentalization of each and every thing. In the real world, we know this to be largely untrue; the world is more shades of gray than black and white. This binary mode of thinking arises from your Judeo-Christian vAsanAs (latent tendencies) that are part and parcel of your culture.

The main issue is that India has produced systems of philosophies thousands of years ago that still baffle people today. Its profundity is second to none and instead of appreciating it, people are investing their time and resources to pick it apart and remap/digest it into their own "worlds" for material gain or egotistical reasons.

It is no surprise that India was the richest country on the planet, materially speaking, till the early 1800s. These vast treasures of knowledge are a direct result of the brilliance of the Indian mind.

It pains me a great deal when my country, culture, and religion are constantly being denigrated and dragged through the muck and mire when it has given the world so much without expecting anything in return. It is not about me; my connection with my motherland is deep. To see her wounded and helpless when she has given refuge to all through the millenia is mightily sad. When the Jews were attacked in their homeland and their temple destroyed in 70 CE, India gave refuge to the first colony of Jews in Kerala (who still thrive). India is the only place in the world that has not harassed and attacked the Jews. The same refuge was given to Syrian Christians when they were attacked by Romans. There are umpteen examples of acts of selflessness by Mother India that it brings me to tears that everyone spits on her face including some ungrateful wretches who call themselves Indian and Hindu; they haven't the slightest clue about their country or civilization.

India, as you know, is the only surviving civilization that is continuous; most others live in textbooks and museums. The theft of Indian philosophy under a garb of fancy jargon adds to the destruction of India as a civilization and that is why I pointed it out. It would behoove you, and all others who claim to be interested in philosophy, to start reading Hindu/Buddhist thought with diligence.

After all, there is no knowledge that is not power!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,710
6,198
126
Baasha, I only wanted to categorize you as of infinite value like everybody else regardless of how propaganda divides us. All that I said I felt is true, not because I categorized you but because of what I know about myself. I used to feel a need to defend the West. Now I think more of truth being egalitarian. It can't be given to those who don't deserve it nor denied to those who do. Truth to me is not cultural but is expressed most appropriately depending on time and place and people. I believe that for the West in this time and condition, psychoanalysis and the understanding of unconscious motivations via feeling them is a viable path. I think that religion and philosophy are ways the mind can step over conditioning and go directly to truth, or, alternatively or in conjunction with that, self remembering, the remembering of the past and how we were conditioned by reliving the actual events, events we feel but have buried in the unconscious. Anyway, I would not want to take from India any of it's achievements. I just feel that one can fall in love with a bridge when it's only importance is crossing. I believe also that the power of knowledge becomes an obstacle too.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Baasha,

The state of your argumentation being out of totalizing indoctrination is not meant ad hominem; I apologize for saying 'you' are indoctrinated, I've never had a beer with you, how the hell should I know who 'you' are! I did only mean to address the ideas you proffered. I meant the "Sounds like you've been indoctrinated." to be just that, it sounds as though, not that you are. But I get that I should address your ideas.

It is rank dishonesty to claim that Jewish culture or philosophy was/is ontological - from this framework developed the Christian and Islamic frameworks.
Let us both assume the other is being honest about the world as we experience it (even if we are mistaken about historical facts, in the eyes of the other) so that we can appreciate how the other came to the world of perspective we are both in.

From that perspective I thank you for the insights into my culture. Might you realize that in your own culture you are in direct opposition to the multiple constitutive emersion of complexity that you suggest?

For example, the argument you proffer totalizes indian culture; it argues that said culture survives when it is impossible for anything to survive as nothing is perpetual even for a moment, reification is a necessary shade of gray but in treating culture 'alive' vs 'dead' this creates a binary opposition.

If your argument is true then bringing humanity to the brink of destruction by having a shooting war with Pakistan, a fellow nuclear armed power, is the hight of despicable culture. But I do not totalize, as your argument seems to, and I recognize that ideas are fluid and every changing; nations, cultures, ideas are all non-existent: simply put a localized lack of diversity (which we call national culture) is not nearly as beautiful as egalitarian acceptance of all humanity.

Ideas are continuous, people are continuous, but interactions between people and ideas are discursive when power (even the power of self identity) comes into play.

Swami Vivekananda talked in detail about involution and evolution and it is one of the concepts in Kashmir Saivism (you know, before the mooslums invaded) known as nimesha (involution) and unmesha (evolution). Kashmir Saivism was in vogue in the 8th century CE. Can you tell me which "western scholar" (no such thing existed then) came up with involution that it is a cornerstone of "western thought" as this Wilber claims?

YES
Anaximander, a greek, came up with the idea of evolution c. 600 BCE
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/ancient.html

This heavily influenced heraclitus and parmenidies from which Hedger developed (for modern audiences) an ontological structure of being in the world developed out of grounding in the hebrew concepts of existentialism c. 450BCE.

I agree that modern thought is linearized and dichotomizing: but this is no more a reflection of its epistemic heritage than near nuclear war and repression of people via the cast system is a representation of hindu thought. No doubt ideas shared across humanity, particularly Hindu, have added greatly to our shared heritage as humans: but if anyone that can think to the end of the epistemic in order to reach the beginning of being from where they left is following the path that all culture and religion emanates from.

But the totalization of Hindu and India as the "epicenter of spirituality on this planet" is a bigoted statement and an argument full-tilt toward racist, ethnocentric, indoctrination.

Which as moon pie pointed out, is an outcome of lived-experiences that I can understand and appreciate, even if I cannot respect it. (though this lack of respect for the lived experiences of those that espouse bigoted ideas may be my own failing)
 
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Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,997
20
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DixyCrat,

Your response seems to be digressing from the thread at hand. In essence, the point I made was that a lot of concepts of so-called "western" philosophy are actually taken from Eastern thought without any credit to the latter; this theft of knowledge is nothing new and continues even today - as with the case of panpsychism etc.

Regarding your other points...

Baasha,

The state of your argumentation being out of totalizing indoctrination is not meant ad hominem; I apologize for saying 'you' are indoctrinated, I've never had a beer with you, how the hell should I know who 'you' are! I did only mean to address the ideas you proffered. I meant the "Sounds like you've been indoctrinated." to be just that, it sounds as though, not that you are. But I get that I should address your ideas.

Let us both assume the other is being honest about the world as we experience it (even if we are mistaken about historical facts, in the eyes of the other) so that we can appreciate how the other came to the world of perspective we are both in.

Although a seemingly perspicacious point, the simple fact of the matter is that history, or rather how the west views history (HIS STORY) is in and of itself a framework that is incompatible with the Dharmic one that I come from. As defined commonly, history is by nature highly linear (as you state later on). Thus, our notions of particular events and certain times and places carries a different significance for the both of us (east vis-a-vis west). Further, I too was brought up and educated in the west - the journey of self discovery and self identity led me to research Dharmic philosophy and the perspectives contained therein.

For example, the argument you proffer totalizes indian culture; it argues that said culture survives when it is impossible for anything to survive as nothing is perpetual even for a moment, reification is a necessary shade of gray but in treating culture 'alive' vs 'dead' this creates a binary opposition.

I prefer the term "continuous civilization" instead of reductive nomenclature of totalization etc. This is because, the nuance of meaning can easily get lost in the statement as demonstrated here.

It is undoubtedly a fact, even admitted grudgingly by the most anti-Indian scholars, that the Indian civilization is the oldest "living" (aka continuous) civilization in the world. As mentioned in my previous posts, no other "ancient" culture survives today thanks to the brutal onslaught of Christianity and Islam around the world (and later, communism).

Yes, there may be remnants and traces of ancient civilizations elsewhere but they no longer thrive as they once did whereas Indian culture is still the dominant one in India (and shall remain so).

If your argument is true then bringing humanity to the brink of destruction by having a shooting war with Pakistan, a fellow nuclear armed power, is the hight of despicable culture. But I do not totalize, as your argument seems to, and I recognize that ideas are fluid and every changing; nations, cultures, ideas are all non-existent: simply put a localized lack of diversity (which we call national culture) is not nearly as beautiful as egalitarian acceptance of all humanity.

You seem to be highly misinformed about the topic of discussion here by bringing in something totally irrelevant. When India is threatened and attacked constantly by belligerent and aggressive neighbors, she has a right to defend herself. It is sad that America, the only country to have used nukes TWICE on civilians, dares to talk about other countries' peace processes. To equate a defensive move to protect its citizens by India to a belligerent Pakistan (who still attacks Indian soldiers to this day) is utterly obtuse. This has no relevance to what we are discussing here.

Further a better depiction of India's culture in the modern times is Mahatma Gandhi who showed the world that freedom can be won without bloodshed.

Ideas are continuous, people are continuous, but interactions between people and ideas are discursive when power (even the power of self identity) comes into play.

This essentially proves my point that due to the West's hegemony over the past few centuries, the asymmetry in power has enabled them to steal freely from cultures around the world - most significantly from India.

Panpsychism, is but an example.

YES
Anaximander, a greek, came up with the idea of evolution c. 600 BCE
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/ancient.html

This heavily influenced heraclitus and parmenidies from which Hedger developed (for modern audiences) an ontological structure of being in the world developed out of grounding in the hebrew concepts of existentialism c. 450BCE.

There are two issues with the above statement.

First, Greek civilization cannot be mapped on to the Judeo-Christian framework; this was in and of itself a clever but sly move on the part of Thomas Aquinas who wanted to meld the Hebraic and Hellenic cultures. In fact, it was the former that contributed significantly to the destruction of the latter.

Secondly, the concept of Involution as antipodal to Evolution is fleshed out in the Veda - dated to 4000BCE. Western scholars date the Veda to 1700BCE but that is not accurate since they have done so with the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old - a completely erroneous fact.

I pointed out Ken Wilber's duplicitous nature of studying the concepts of Indian philosophy (in this case Sri Aurobindo) and then pondering off as his own - utter dishonesty. This is the case with Involution although Wilber's corpus of works is referred to as "Integral Philosophy" while this thread talks about Panpsychism - another mapping of an Indian philosophical framework without giving credit. There is a pattern here.

I agree that modern thought is linearized and dichotomizing: but this is no more a reflection of its epistemic heritage than near nuclear war and repression of people via the cast system is a representation of hindu thought. No doubt ideas shared across humanity, particularly Hindu, have added greatly to our shared heritage as humans: but if anyone that can think to the end of the epistemic in order to reach the beginning of being from where they left is following the path that all culture and religion emanates from.

The very fact that you talk about "cast" (you mean caste?) system shows the state of "education" in the west; any topic on India is approached with a jaundiced eye. How many kids today learn about the contributions of India to the world in mathematics, astronomy, linguistics, philosophy etc. etc.? Instead, they are taught about cow worship, caste system, and dowry - as your post amply shows.

This is what I'm saying - not only are other cultures (in this case India) not given any credit, they are continually denigrated by various mechanisms in society in the west (education, media, and scholarship) that form not only a biased understanding of history, but of another people, culture, and civilization.

How aware are laymen in the west of the decimal system, numeral system, linguistics among many other things being developed and invented in India? Do people correctly give credit to Baudhayana's SulbasUtrAs when talking about the "Pythagorean" theorem (that preceded Pythagoras by over 300 years)?

The system is set up in such a way that one comes away thinking that the arbiters of knowledge in all of the world were only to be found in the west - this is an absolute falsity and this sort of prejudiced eurocentric "scholarship" has not been challenged until quite recently.

Thus, talking about panpsychism without showing its Hindu/Indian connection is only half the picture.

But the totalization of Hindu and India as the "epicenter of spirituality on this planet" is a bigoted statement and an argument full-tilt toward racist, ethnocentric, indoctrination.


There is no implication of "race" in my statement; another shortcoming in the western way of thinking. That Hindu/Indian culture that has been continuous for thousands of years is an undeniable fact; I don't see how this translates into "racism".

Which as moon pie pointed out, is an outcome of lived-experiences that I can understand and appreciate, even if I cannot respect it. (though this lack of respect for the lived experiences of those that espouse bigoted ideas may be my own failing)

As I mentioned before, my "interest" in panpsychism is next to nil, but I wanted to point out an important yet oft forgotten (intentionally?) link and source to the idea. That is all.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
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Secondly, the concept of Involution as antipodal to Evolution is fleshed out in the Veda - dated to 4000BCE. Western scholars date the Veda to 1700BCE but that is not accurate since they have done so with the idea that the earth is only 6000 years old - a completely erroneous fact.
No scholar does this unless by scholar you mean, what feyerabend termed, 'crank'. But if you think the world-egg hypothesis equates to evolution then your argument is just as much "crank" as the Yong earth creationists.

Unfortunately CT is talking about a perfectly reasonable and analytically correct position to take philosophically, since you knew the words by which to make lay the foundations of argumentation I assumed you had something of value to say: it turns out your argument is little more than jabbering on about the supremacy of the Indian race and culture.

Here's a hint: It doesn't matter where an idea comes from, what matters is its validity; you should be honored that we westerners thought highly enough of Indian pan-psych-ism to pull it out of its grave in the culture of said repressive tribal people and give it a proper name and affix it with strong philosophical grounding.
 
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Baasha

Golden Member
Jan 4, 2010
1,997
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No scholar does this unless by scholar you mean, what feyerabend termed, 'crank'. But if you think the world-egg hypothesis equates to evolution then your argument is just as much "crank" as the Yong earth creationists.

Unfortunately CT is talking about a perfectly reasonable and analytically correct position to take philosophically, since you knew the words by which to make lay the foundations of argumentation I assumed you had something of value to say: it turns out your argument is little more than jabbering on about the supremacy of the Indian race and culture.

Here's a hint: It doesn't matter where an idea comes from, what matters is its validity; you should be honored that we westerners thought highly enough of Indian pan-psych-ism to pull it out of its grave in the culture of said repressive tribal people and give it a proper name and affix it with strong philosophical grounding.

Sigh... you obviously don't have the capacity to understand the basic point made in my posts.

Panpsychism is fancy jargon for philosophical principles already developed in depth by Hindu culture. Coming from a culture that has "progressed" through theft, genocide, and chattel, it would be a tall task to expect you to understand the unethical nature of "theft".

After all, your diseased ancestors who invaded this land in droves and raped, pillaged, and committed genocide had the temerity to call it "spreading civilization" - I suppose the Native Americans should be "honored" by that too?

Apart from India's immeasurable contribution to philosophy since ancient times, more recently, the "revolution of western thought" in the 20th century owes its origin directly to India and Hinduism in particular. The fact that you insinuate that concepts of panpsychism are in the "grave" of the culture shows your utter ignorance of the subject at hand and of Indian culture in general.

It was T.S. Eliot who said referring to Indian philosophy, "Their subtleties make most of the great European philosophers look like schoolboys!"

Continue with your delusion, still struggling to break away from looking at everything through a "racial" angle - epitomizes the limits of the western "mind".

And, "hint": It does very much matter where the idea comes from - it matters much when someone pretends to ponder something off as their own without giving credit and/or citing the sources correctly. You know, plagiarism, theft and all that?

Also, the "world-egg hypothesis", which is actually called Hiranyagarbha is part of the Hindu cosmogony which also states that the earth is around 4.32 billion years (solar years) old. While bible-thumping westerners think that the earth is 6000 years old, Hindus, thousands of years ago posited a remarkably accurate age of the planet when it was proven only relatively recently. :whiste:
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
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Sigh... you obviously don't have the capacity to understand the basic point made in my posts.

Panpsychism is fancy jargon for philosophical principles already developed in depth by Hindu culture. Coming from a culture that has "progressed" through theft, genocide, and chattel, it would be a tall task to expect you to understand the unethical nature of "theft".

After all, your diseased ancestors who invaded this land in droves and raped, pillaged, and committed genocide had the temerity to call it "spreading civilization" - I suppose the Native Americans should be "honored" by that too?

Apart from India's immeasurable contribution to philosophy since ancient times, more recently, the "revolution of western thought" in the 20th century owes its origin directly to India and Hinduism in particular. The fact that you insinuate that concepts of panpsychism are in the "grave" of the culture shows your utter ignorance of the subject at hand and of Indian culture in general.

It was T.S. Eliot who said referring to Indian philosophy, "Their subtleties make most of the great European philosophers look like schoolboys!"

Continue with your delusion, still struggling to break away from looking at everything through a "racial" angle - epitomizes the limits of the western "mind".

And, "hint": It does very much matter where the idea comes from - it matters much when someone pretends to ponder something off as their own without giving credit and/or citing the sources correctly. You know, plagiarism, theft and all that?

Also, the "world-egg hypothesis", which is actually called Hiranyagarbha is part of the Hindu cosmogony which also states that the earth is around 4.32 billion years (solar years) old. While bible-thumping westerners think that the earth is 6000 years old, Hindus, thousands of years ago posited a remarkably accurate age of the planet when it was proven only relatively recently. :whiste:

Masturbatory rubbish. This thread explores the validity of a particular idea, and with regard to validity, the origin of that idea is irrelevant.

You are invited to congratulate yourself elsewhere.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
I feel Wittgenstein took down pan-psychism with this reasoning:

*
692. Is it correct for someone to say: "When I gave you this rule,
I meant you to .... . in this case"? Even if he did not think of this
case at all as he gave the rule? Of course it is correct. For "to mean it"
did not mean: to think of it. But now the problem is: how are we
to judge whether someone meant such-and-such?—The fact that he
has, for example, mastered a particular technique in arithmetic and
algebra, and that he taught someone else the expansion of a series in the
usual way, is such a criterion.

693. "When I teach someone the formation of the series ... . I
surely mean him to write ... . at the hundredth place."—Quite right;
you mean it. And evidently without necessarily even thinking of it.
This shews you how different the grammar of the verb "to mean"
is from that of "to think". And nothing is more wrong-headed
than calling meaning a mental activity!
Unless, that is, one is setting
out to produce confusion. (It would also be possible to speak of an
activity of butter when it rises in price, and if no problems are
produced by this it is harmless.)
*

It seems clear that not everything is thought, as meaning is not a mental activity.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
The same reason we don't claim that the planet has arms and legs.

There's no evidence to support either claim.

My comment was about the definition we currently use to look for consciousness; that is, maybe our definition of consciousness is on too small a scale to recognize that earth processes are conscious.

But that's a detour from the idea of pan-psychism presented by the OP.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,284
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For at least 1/4 of every day, most of us are unconscious.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,514
351
126
Baasha and DixyCat

Both of you!

WOW! :|

Baasha, DixyCat is not the typical arrogant western atheist/reductionist. And as DixyCat said, an idea has its own merits by itself regardless of origin. Please do not confuse ordinary westerners with its dummy leftole intellectuals. Liberals and Scientific westerners can be debated logically with. I demand you debate with logic in this sense rather than in terms of historical origins.

And DixyCat, please let go of the thought Hindus are tribal primitive people. Now Baasha might have pissed you off and I completely understand why reading his post. But it is not true. India may be tribal, but not Hindus and especially not educated Hindus or Indians of any religion in general. You know me, I'm an agnostic Hindu from India and you know my thinking is free and my words to you have always been sincere. What holds Indians and especially Hindus of India behind is just economic poverty caused by socialists and leftoles in our government. Also Baasha, I demand that you stop classifying people by castes even if you are just using such classification in a metaphorical sense. This is the new world and the ways of the old world has been washed away by the deluge of history.

And by the way, you Baasha again, you must be an American by birth. You might be an Hindu by religion, but you are still American by birth and citizenship. It is your duty as a Hindu to be the most patriotic American in this world and not disparage your own American countrymen. It is not Hindu of you to think lowly of Americans when you are yourself an American. Being an Hindu is a heritage of the whole of the Human race and is not confined in any geographical context. If you are an American by citizen, you must be loyal to America first and India only next. But there is nothing preventing you from forming an ideal behavior which benefits both. India and America are both beacons of democracy in this world, the former in the third world and the latter in the first world. Similarly Iron must mold itself with clay to make the entire entity stronger.

In essence all I claim is the supremacy of free thought, not the superiority of any way of life aka religion or geography aka countries.

Steel from any part of this world must mold with the clay from any other part of this same world. Only then humans can forge the spear that will make us the truly supreme in this universe.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
And DixyCat, please let go of the thought Hindus are tribal primitive people.
I was NOT honestly saying that and it was out of line for this forum. I was just reflecting the same thing back this guy was dishing out.

No doubt Hindu has offered a great deal to the western world of thought; much of it taken without credit.

Being an Hindu is a heritage of the whole of the Human race and is not confined in any geographical context.
This makes sense to me. Insulting me and my ethnicity does not.
In essence all I claim is the supremacy of free thought, not the superiority of any way of life aka religion or geography aka countries.
I like the common ground.

I'll gladly retract (and redact) my statements about tribalism and the 'honor' of having westerners 'elevate' Hindu thought.
 
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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,514
351
126
I was NOT honestly saying that and it was out of line for this forum. I was just reflecting the same thing back this guy was dishing out.

No doubt Hindu has offered a great deal to the western world of thought; much of it taken without credit.

This makes sense to me. Insulting me and my ethnicity does not.

I like the common ground.

I'll gladly retract (and redact) my statements about tribalism and the 'honor' of having westerners 'elevate' Hindu thought.

I understand completely.

A good Hindu is always expected to be a patriot of his own nation. Where he lives in whichever place that sustains him, thats his motherland.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
I understand completely.

A good Hindu is always expected to be a patriot of his own nation. Where he lives in whichever place that sustains him, thats his motherland.

And criticism of our nation is often the most patriotic thing. But this was vitriol, not criticism.
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,514
351
126
And criticism of our nation is often the most patriotic thing. But this was vitriol, not criticism.

I can understand Baasha's motivations too. History has not been kind to Hindus, especially not for the past thousand years.

One must always understand things, especially in terms of their own perspective.

You see, a great leader today gave political meetings and his meetings were interrupted by bomb blasts aka terrorism attacks by certain fucked up muslim groups from Pakistan.

In light of this incident, what I claim is that no ordinary Hindu or Muslim or Christian is a terrorist by himself. All these fucked up things happen only when fucked up people want to claim temporal power by themselves.

All religions in terms of their essential core are very good things, it is the selfishness of humans which always makes religion a fucked up thing.

In essence what I'm saying is:

All human are benevolent by themselves.

Group pressure can make human behave in self destructive in irrational ways.

Therefore group pressure in terms of religion is always a bad thing, religion as a sense should be always be a personal belief in terms of itself as a higher mental thought. No religion ever exalted itself as a group entity, it always only demeaned itself by the selfish actions of its followers.

Baasha might be bigoted against certain kinds of people, maybe its even rightful of his bigotry. But that is not a correct way to generalize all human beings of that country.

If Baasha is American, he must believe in the general goodness and fairness of the American system which I myself believe is a very fair system of life.

If he doesn't believe in it, he is free to come to India to make my country better. We, Indians can use people like Baasha. There is nothing preventing people like him coming back to the place of his origin to make it better.
 
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Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
4,514
351
126
Bringing this thread back to its track.

OP, I can argue each and everything in this universe is conscious in its own particular and special way.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,137
382
126
For at least 1/4 of every day, most of us are unconscious.

How can that be true? We respond to external stimuli and are capable of being woken up while sleeping. Sleep is not a coma.

He said unconscious, not in a coma. Unconscious is a state in which your consciousness is inactive, and you subconscious is active.

To clarify:
In medicine, a coma (κῶμα koma, meaning "deep sleep") is a state of unconsciousness lasting more than six hours,[1] in which a person: cannot be awakened; fails to respond normally to painful stimuli, light, or sound; lacks a normal sleep-wake cycle; and, does not initiate voluntary actions.[1] A person in a state of coma is described as being comatose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coma
However, Ken g6, you can go more than 1 day without sleep, or without being awake.
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
He said unconscious, not in a coma. Unconscious is a state in which your consciousness is inactive, and you subconscious is active.
This idea is based on an arbitrary definition of "conscious," and likewise an arbitrary division of conscious states.
 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
Do you have a less-arbitrary definition you were thinking about?
It's an interesting question, and while its true to say that all definitions are basically arbitrary (making my comment seem trivial on its face), I think consciousness itself is a unique case.

Every other object in our reality we learn and know about through interaction, and we define those objects in ways that distinguish them from other objects.

Consciousness, on the other hand, is experienced "directly" -- if it can be said that we have "first hand" or "second hand" knowledge of the objects in reality, then we have "zero-th hand" experience of our consciousness. At the same time, however, we have no such experience of other consciousness -- first hand, second hand, third, or any other hand for that matter. Objects are part of the shared reality in a way that consciousness is not.

So it seems to be a special kind of arbitrary to define certain outward behavior patterns as "unconscious" when foremost we have no idea about any consciousness besides our own, and equally, it is literally impossible to know even first-hand or "zero-th hand" what it means to be unconscious, or even if such a state is possible in the first place.
 
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