An explanation to the over abundance of broken z560s?

AnthraX101

Senior member
Oct 7, 2001
771
0
0
Well, I was bored today, and eyed both my trusty screwdriver, and my not so trusty z560 sub. So, seeing as I have an extra one, I decide to take her apart. Well, I was startled by what I found. I will let the evidence speak for itself:

Exhibit 1
Exhibit 2
Exhibit 3

Anything a little...strange to you? (Hint: Compare sub wattage on exhibit 3 to picture 2)

Well, I am going to yank out the amp now More pictures will probably follow.

Armani
 

d33pt

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2001
5,654
1
81
if that is the case, then i really doubt their 400w rms ratings for the amp...
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
interesting. methinks it might be a good idea to get the replacement plan at best buy if this is the case.
 

Danman

Lifer
Nov 9, 1999
13,134
0
0
Originally posted by: ElFenix
interesting. methinks it might be a good idea to get the replacement plan at best buy if this is the case.

Yea, that would be a good idea.
 

iLoveDivX

Banned
Apr 2, 2001
656
0
0
i have a question, if my rear speakers are softer than my front ones even though the fade is turned all of the way up, does that mean that my sub is messed up? i have switched and test the speakers and know for sure that the speakers are fine.
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,044
62
91
theres a lot broken.. becaus.e.. they sold a crapload.... everyone at at has a set
 

GiGoLo

Senior member
Oct 1, 2001
453
0
0
i notice that in addition to being 80w, your subwoofer also has 8 horseshoes.
i dont know why, but i found that damn funny neways, i'm wondering if the power rating they give on the website is rated @4ohms instead of 8 like the speaker implies. 80W @ 8ohms would produce ~160W @ 4ohms, so maybe thats what they're doing?? who knows....
 

Haircut

Platinum Member
Apr 23, 2000
2,248
0
0
Originally posted by: wfbberzerker
i notice that in addition to being 80w, your subwoofer also has 8 horseshoes.
That's probably why they often seem to go wrong. The horse shoe is turned upside down, so all the good luck in it runs away causing the speakers to break



 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
That 80W rating is at 8 ohms... is everyone sure that the sub is being run at that impedence?

 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
Its been common knowledge for some time that the sub is 80w and the sats are 15w. Logitech is straight up lying.
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
Originally posted by: BD2003
Its been common knowledge for some time that the sub is 80w and the sats are 15w. Logitech is straight up lying.

where's the proof of that?
 

AnthraX101

Senior member
Oct 7, 2001
771
0
0
I was talking to some people who are supposed to know their stuff, and they say you can't just run it at a lower impedance without doing all sorts of funky stuff...

Armani
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
It was posted here just when they first came out. If you search, youll find it. The sub is clearly labeled 80W as you can very well see, and the sats are labeled 15W.
 

AnthraX101

Senior member
Oct 7, 2001
771
0
0
Originally posted by: BD2003
It was posted here just when they first came out. If you search, youll find it. The sub is clearly labeled 80W as you can very well see, and the sats are labeled 15W.

I've found two pages that listed the sub having 100w, including one with a picture, but none with it as 80w.

Armani
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
76
http://www.dansdata.com/speakersets.htm

A part that you want to read:

"The second piece of marketese in the Z-560 specifications has to do with the abovementioned power output issue. Logitech make a big deal about the Z-560 system having 400 Absolutely Genuine Federal Trade Commission Authorised Totally Real RMS American Watts Baby. 188 watts for the sub, 53 watts for each satellite.

This is not true.

Well, OK, it could be true. If it is, though, the speakers should all blow up.

Point one - not enough amp power. No way is that a 400VA toroidal in the corner of the box. It'd have to be a bit beefier even than that, of course, because the amp isn't 100 per cent efficient. If it were, it wouldn't need a heat sink.

Point two - insufficiently chunky drivers, with embarrassingly low power ratings printed on them.

Such things as almost-200-watt eight inch drivers exist. If you want to cheat then you can make a zillion watt speaker by putting a crowbar across its input wires; now you can pump vast amounts of power through that speaker (if you define the crowbar as being part of the speaker...), and it won't make any more noise than it would from far less power without the crowbar. In other words, its efficiency is now astoundingly poor.

That's not what Logitech are doing; it's not what any sane speaker builder does. The drivers in these speakers have perfectly OK efficiency for their size. If the eight inch bass driver had an ultra-humungous magnet around a similarly huge voice coil and a unit retail price up around $AUD200, then it'd be plausible for it to have better than 150 watt power handling.

That's not the kind of driver that's in there, though. The back of the sub driver hides behind the huge bent port, but you can peer through the gap to see the mere hundred watt rating.

Similarly, I suppose it's possible to make a three inch mid/treble driver, like the ones in the Z-560 satellites, which can handle 53 watts. I don't know whether any such product actually exists on the retail market, but I'd be happy to learn otherwise.

Once again, though, that's not what Logitech have actually used. 15 watts, people. A Tangband Speakers W3-665SC, to be exact. Which isn't listed on the Tangband site; I just linked to that site out of malice.

Exceed the rated power handling by a significant margin for a significant period and you'll kill the driver. Unless the sticker ratings are very conservative, therefore, one 100 watt sub plus four 15 watt sats is 160 watts. QED.

The driver-peering also revealed that none of the Z-560 speakers contain any resonance-reducing damping material at all.



 

BillGates

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2001
7,388
2
81
Originally posted by: AnthraX101
Originally posted by: BD2003
It was posted here just when they first came out. If you search, youll find it. The sub is clearly labeled 80W as you can very well see, and the sats are labeled 15W.

I've found two pages that listed the sub having 100w, including one with a picture, but none with it as 80w.

Armani


Speakers do not HAVE watts (they do not produce energy) - they are rated with a wattage number as a guideline of approximately how much power they can handle.
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
7,931
0
0
Originally posted by: BD2003
http://www.dansdata.com/speakersets.htm

A part that you want to read:

"The second piece of marketese in the Z-560 specifications has to do with the abovementioned power output issue. Logitech make a big deal about the Z-560 system having 400 Absolutely Genuine Federal Trade Commission Authorised Totally Real RMS American Watts Baby. 188 watts for the sub, 53 watts for each satellite.

This is not true.

Well, OK, it could be true. If it is, though, the speakers should all blow up.

Point one - not enough amp power. No way is that a 400VA toroidal in the corner of the box. It'd have to be a bit beefier even than that, of course, because the amp isn't 100 per cent efficient. If it were, it wouldn't need a heat sink.

Point two - insufficiently chunky drivers, with embarrassingly low power ratings printed on them.

Such things as almost-200-watt eight inch drivers exist. If you want to cheat then you can make a zillion watt speaker by putting a crowbar across its input wires; now you can pump vast amounts of power through that speaker (if you define the crowbar as being part of the speaker...), and it won't make any more noise than it would from far less power without the crowbar. In other words, its efficiency is now astoundingly poor.

That's not what Logitech are doing; it's not what any sane speaker builder does. The drivers in these speakers have perfectly OK efficiency for their size. If the eight inch bass driver had an ultra-humungous magnet around a similarly huge voice coil and a unit retail price up around $AUD200, then it'd be plausible for it to have better than 150 watt power handling.

That's not the kind of driver that's in there, though. The back of the sub driver hides behind the huge bent port, but you can peer through the gap to see the mere hundred watt rating.

Similarly, I suppose it's possible to make a three inch mid/treble driver, like the ones in the Z-560 satellites, which can handle 53 watts. I don't know whether any such product actually exists on the retail market, but I'd be happy to learn otherwise.

Once again, though, that's not what Logitech have actually used. 15 watts, people. A Tangband Speakers W3-665SC, to be exact. Which isn't listed on the Tangband site; I just linked to that site out of malice.

Exceed the rated power handling by a significant margin for a significant period and you'll kill the driver. Unless the sticker ratings are very conservative, therefore, one 100 watt sub plus four 15 watt sats is 160 watts. QED.

The driver-peering also revealed that none of the Z-560 speakers contain any resonance-reducing damping material at all.



hehe i ussually post that people bought into logitechs marketing... i hate marketing peeps theres a huge heatsink on that poor z560 for a reason the klipsch don't get very warm without a heatsink i'm not sure why they didn't go for some resonance dampening material. the stuff is in most any cheapo speaker


dans a kewl guy, he does what ever speaker reviewer should do. rip the bloody things apart after to see whats inside

and yes theres pics on that site
 

chiwawa626

Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
12,013
0
0
Originally posted by: GiGoLo
i notice that in addition to being 80w, your subwoofer also has 8 horseshoes.
i dont know why, but i found that damn funny neways, i'm wondering if the power rating they give on the website is rated @4ohms instead of 8 like the speaker implies. 80W @ 8ohms would produce ~160W @ 4ohms, so maybe thats what they're doing?? who knows....

Im no audio guy but what hes saying does make sense to me if it is possible?
 

GiGoLo

Senior member
Oct 1, 2001
453
0
0
I was talking to some people who are supposed to know their stuff, and they say you can't just run it at a lower impedance without doing all sorts of funky stuff...
there's nothing funky about it... all you do is wire it differently which isn't difficult at all. for example (using car stereo equip), if you have 2 8ohm subs and a 2-channel amp, you can easily bridge the 2 channels together into a 4ohm mono load, instead of 8ohm stereo. this way you get twice the power and it treats the 2 subs as 1. using just one subwoofer, the same thing can be done depending on how the amp is made.

also, as billgates pointed out, the 80W listed on the speaker just means that IF its running at 8ohms, it can HANDLE 80W of power. it in no way tells us how much power its actually receiving. so where is the proof that logitech is lying??
 

wfbberzerker

Lifer
Apr 12, 2001
10,423
0
0
so... isnt there something wrong with logitech blatently lying about the wattage on the z-560s? why cant anyone do anytthing about it?
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
7,931
0
0
Originally posted by: wfbberzerker
so... isnt there something wrong with logitech blatently lying about the wattage on the z-560s? why cant anyone do anytthing about it?



there is nothing you can do about funny numbers. how do you think blousant gets away with selling magic pills that increase bust size? or taiwanese speakers that claim 1400watts for 50 dollars
 

chiwawa626

Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
12,013
0
0
Originally posted by: Nefrodite
Originally posted by: wfbberzerker
so... isnt there something wrong with logitech blatently lying about the wattage on the z-560s? why cant anyone do anytthing about it?



there is nothing you can do about funny numbers. how do you think blousant gets away with selling magic pills that increase bust size? or taiwanese speakers that claim 1400watts for 50 dollars

The 1400watts for 50 dollars is 1400 watts at peak but what we usualy talk about is RMS...these z560s advertise 400 watts rms and if its not its a lie and its false advertising, but im sure they have some funny scheeme to back themselves up on it.
 
Oct 9, 1999
15,218
3
81
I believe on th Z560s the Peak PMPO is 400W its not 400W RMS.. but 400W PMPO.

Which at that rate will blow out the speakers or the amp. Its probably rated for continous around 200PMPO or lesser..

yeah the 80W 8Ohm sounds fishy.. All the subs I have seen work at 2 or 4 Ohm.. not 8Ohm.. I think logitech is making a miscalculatoin.. if they are using 8Ohm rating then and using a 4 ohm amp they are probably going to blow the speakers out.

<--- Altec Lansing fan.
 
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