An Israeli point of view...

[Mandos]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

ISRAEL IS A JEWSIH STATE ? IT WAS BUILT FOR JEWS AND HAS TO MAINTAIN A JEWSIH MAJORITY.

Do Israeli Arabs have all the same rights as Iraeli Jews? How many are there? Do their children automatically count as citizens? Personally, I find religion or ethnicity based citizenship requirements appalling.

Honestly man. If you havent noticed, America is becoming a religion based democracy as well. In god we trust? Not me man, not me, but I've gotta hear the stuff daily. Not that we have citizenship requirements on it, its still the whole essence of hearing all that blather every day, makes me feel less and less free.


And as for Israel being a jewish state, he's right in his point. Jews get treated like trash everywhere in the world, why can they not have their own slice of heaven?

I'll be replying in a minute as soon as I'm done reading some replies here. I had to reply to this ignorant and silly post though.

 

[Mandos]

Originally posted by: Trente
Trente's huge post

I would go ahead and reply and make a point but this thread is just too crowded with Americans trolling, half-reading big paragraphs and jumping to conclusions.

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: hatim
never had the time to read the whole thread, but coming back to Trente's original post. Please do remember that Israel was part of an Arab state once, called Palestine. Poor Palestenians ...Indirectly, it is USA's fault to give Isreal so much respect for doing wrong! Give the Palestenians there land back, atlesat some off it. All Jews should withdraw from "modern" Palestine at once!

So they should leave just because they're jewish?

No they should just leave because they invaded that land.

 

[Tinkerhell]

Originally posted by: hatim
never had the time to read the whole thread, but coming back to Trente's original post. Please do remember that Israel was part of an Arab state once, called Palestine. Poor Palestenians ...Indirectly, it is USA's fault to give Isreal so much respect for doing wrong! Give the Palestenians there land back, atlesat some off it. All Jews should withdraw from "modern" Palestine at once!

Palestine was not orginally Arab. You should read the whole thread. This land belonged to the Jews, and when the Romans invaded it they renamed it Palestine, not Arabs. The Arabs came around when (like I posted before): During the seventh century (A.D. 600's), Muslim  Arab armies moved north from Arabia to conquer most of the Middle East, including Palestine. Muslim powers controlled the region until the early 1900's. The rulers allowed Christians and Jews to keep their religions. However, most of the local population gradually accepted Islam and the Arab-Islamic culture of their rulers. Jerusalem became holy to Muslims as the site where, according to tradition, Muhammed ascended to heaven after a miraculous overnight ride on his horse Al-Buraq. The al-Aqsa mosque was built on the site generally regarded as the area of the Jewish temple.

Why should Jews withdraw from land that is their's. The Arabs should have their own land separated from the Jews and it should be called Palestine, but the Arabs have been against splits in the past causing more and more trouble. They always want more land and don't want to share with Jews. And because of this they commit terrorist acts.

In 1947 The UN proposed splitting the land into an Arab state and a Jewish state, the Jews accepted it but the Arabs did not.

Both sides need to agree to an equal split and learn to live with eachother.

Don't say that Jews should leave because they were there long before Arabs were.

 

[Tinkerhell]

Originally posted by: hatim
never had the time to read the whole thread, but coming back to Trente's original post. Please do remember that Israel was part of an Arab state once, called Palestine. Poor Palestenians ...Indirectly, it is USA's fault to give Isreal so much respect for doing wrong! Give the Palestenians there land back, atlesat some off it. All Jews should withdraw from "modern" Palestine at once!

Somebody sounds a little anti-Jew...
and a little confused about history.

 

[piasabird]

If Isreal is so worried about being a Jewish State, why do they hire all the Palestinians? This seems like an invitation to be attacked. Having a government enforced Class System in your country is a good way to propogate hate. I see other countries in the region doing the same thing. It seems like some people want thing both ways. They want cheap labor, but do not want to give their cheap laborers citizenship.

We have the same problem in the United States. Some states have a high Mexican Population and a lot of them are illegal residents.

 

[DBL]

First, I would like to thank the OP for his well thought out and heart-felt post. I would also hope he understands that many people in the US sympathize with him and fully support Israel?s right to exist. The amount of ignorance and misinformation in this thread is staggering. Of course, this being ATP&N, I have come to expect no less.

1) The term anti-Semite refers to a bias against Jews. To believe otherwise is to admit ignorance. The fact that the etymology may not be complete or wholly correct doesn?t matter.

Educate yourself on the historical context of anti-Semitism

2) Just as some Arabs were pushed/chose to leave modern day Israel in a build-up to war, many Jews were forcibly thrown out of Arab countries. This includes Iraq, Syria, Egypt..etc.

3) Jews have always inhabited the areas encompassed by modern day Israel. How else do you explain the multitude of historical sites in Jerusalem and other areas, many of which are significantly older than the Muslim religion?

4) The US played no role in the establishment of the state of Israel and was not an instrumental help in any of its following wars. Israel was created on the backs of hard-working Jews, who fought for a country where anti-Semitism and religious discrimination would be a thing of the past. Due to the holocaust, many Israelis see Israel as a guarantee that such atrocities will never be committed again.

5) Palestinians have a violent history not only with Israel but also with fellow Arabs. To this day, Palestinians still live in refugee camps in other Arab countries without the right of citizenship.

6) Arab countries support of the Palestinian conflict is seen as a way to hide their atrocities from the world stage. As such, it is in their best interest to help support the conflict rather than support the Palestinians.

7) Teaching Anti-Semitism is the curriculum in Palestinian schools. Examples from Palestinian schoolbooks are readily available on the Internet. This is why children aspire to be suicide bombers and science-fair projects depict the bloody aftermath of a suicide bombing.

8) The stated goal of the PLO and the terror organizations is THE ELIMINATION OF ISRAEL. This can be verified with a little bit of research. Those saying to "just give back their land" need to understand that those committing the violence want ALL of the land of Israel. Unfortunately, in Palestinian society, those are the people who call the shots. Palestinian voices of moderation are few and far between, primarily due to the perceived danger of speaking out against the status quo.

..So many more but that will have to do for now. I don't believe anybodies mind will be changed but the Palestinian bias is incredibly strong on these forums and I just felt the need to even it out a bit.

 

[Tinkerhell]

Originally posted by: DBL
First, I would like to thank the OP for his well thought out and heart-felt post. I would also hope he understands that many people in the US sympathize with him and fully support Israel?s right to exist. The amount of ignorance and misinformation in this thread is staggering. Of course, this being ATP&N, I have come to expect no less.

1) The term anti-Semite refers to a bias against Jews. To believe otherwise is to admit ignorance. The fact that the etymology may not be complete or wholly correct doesn?t matter.

Educate yourself on the historical context of anti-Semitism

2) Just as some Arabs were pushed/chose to leave modern day Israel in a build-up to war, many Jews were forcibly thrown out of Arab countries. This includes Iraq, Syria, Egypt..etc.

3) Jews have always inhabited the areas encompassed by modern day Israel. How else do you explain the multitude of historical sites in Jerusalem and other areas, many of which are significantly older than the Muslim religion?

4) The US played no role in the establishment of the state of Israel and was not an instrumental help in any of its following wars. Israel was created on the backs of hard-working Jews, who fought for a country where anti-Semitism and religious discrimination would be a thing of the past. Due to the holocaust, many Israelis see Israel as a guarantee that such atrocities will never be committed again.

5) Palestinians have a violent history not only with Israel but also with fellow Arabs. To this day, Palestinians still live in refugee camps in other Arab countries without the right of citizenship.

6) Arab countries support of the Palestinian conflict is seen as a way to hide their atrocities from the world stage. As such, it is in their best interest to help support the conflict rather than support the Palestinians.

7) Teaching Anti-Semitism is the curriculum in Palestinian schools. Examples from Palestinian schoolbooks are readily available on the Internet. This is why children aspire to be suicide bombers and science-fair projects depict the bloody aftermath of a suicide bombing.

8) The stated goal of the PLO and the terror organizations is THE ELIMINATION OF ISRAEL. This can be verified with a little bit of research. Those saying to "just give back their land" need to understand that those committing the violence want ALL of the land of Israel. Unfortunately, in Palestinian society, those are the people who call the shots. Palestinian voices of moderation are few and far between, primarily due to the perceived danger of speaking out against the status quo.

..So many more but that will have to do for now. I don't believe anybodies mind will be changed but the Palestinian bias is incredibly strong on these forums and I just felt the need to even it out a bit.

Good and correct post

 

[CWRMadcat]

Originally posted by: DBL


4) The US played no role in the establishment of the state of Israel and was not an instrumental help in any of its following wars. Israel was created on the backs of hard-working Jews, who fought for a country where anti-Semitism and religious discrimination would be a thing of the past. Due to the holocaust, many Israelis see Israel as a guarantee that such atrocities will never be committed again.

Approximately 95 billion in aid over the last 50 years.

US Aid to Israel

Israel didn't go it alone; and neither did the Arabs.

Other than though, I agree with the other points .

 

[Trente]

As a side note: If it were not for Israel, you would have a nuclear Iraq today - Saddam made two main attempts to obtain nuclear weapons. Israel crippled them both...

 

[Infohawk]

I call on Trente and other posters to use more explanatory thread topics when posting. Caps are generally considered in bad taste in net etiquette. "Please read"? It's safe to assume most posters want their threads read. If you want people to read your post, explain at least what the Israeli viewpoint is instead of resorting to childish yelling.

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I call on Trente and other posters to use more explanatory thread topics when posting. Caps are generally considered in bad taste in net etiquette. "Please read"? It's safe to assume most posters want their threads read. If you want people to read your post, explain at least what the Israeli viewpoint is instead of resorting to childish yelling.

I simply wanted the thread to be viewed as many times possible; I am sorry if it offended you are anyone else on these boards.

 

[Tinkerhell]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
I call on Trente and other posters to use more explanatory thread topics when posting. Caps are generally considered in bad taste in net etiquette. "Please read"? It's safe to assume most posters want their threads read. If you want people to read your post, explain at least what the Israeli viewpoint is instead of resorting to childish yelling.

STFU. Go cry

 

[Klixxer]

I see a lot of people blaming one side or the other, but no real solution.

It is clear, at least to me that the settlements are illegal and needs to go, it is also clear that a strong Palestinian government and law enforcement agency needs to be created, as it is now, palestinians are simply in the hands of the terror organizations and have no way of stopping them.

There is only one way to make this happen, by force, get the entire UN behind it, that would include the US, France, Germany, Russia, China and the rest of the countries, ENFORCE IT, make it happen, the UN should put it's foot down and say, Ok, kiddies, this is where the silliness stops, we are ALL tired of your idiocy, both of you, either you agree to do as we say and there will be benefits and help for both of you, or you disagree and pay a high price for it.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Trente
As a side note: If it were not for Israel, you would have a nuclear Iraq today - Saddam made two main attempts to obtain nuclear weapons. Israel crippled them both...

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767914007/qid=1085784885/">Raid on the Sun : Inside Israel's Secret Campaign that Denied Saddam the Bomb
by RODGER CLAIRE (Author) </a>

 

[dejacky]

i think both sides are at fault... i don't think either "army" is moral...they're both puppets of moronic legislation and politics.

 

[konakona]

good try, but not good enough. no matter how long your posts are most people wouldnt so easily change their beliefs just by reading someones post on forums. why not make it a poll and see how many people converted to your zionism after reading your oh-so-convincing opinions?

STFU. Go cry

whether your arguments are valid or not, such strong outburt sentiments makes you look anything but eloquent. funny how you say that when this whole thread looks like nothing but a bitter rant.

 

[alphatarget1]

just a couple of things to add...

i think the idea of a "jewish state" is... well, somewhat racist? No, but I don't have any other words to describe it. With that said,

I don't think Israel is evil, I don't think Palestinians are either. What happened in the past is HISTORY and why are you guys still clinging on to it? Who cares who owned that land and what not. What matters is that both sides are killing each other. If the Irish catholics and british protestants can handle peace (somewhat), i'm sure you guys can work something out. Retailiating isn't necessarily the best way to go IMO.

Terrorist groups need to be dissolved and the idea of "dismantling israel" needs to go. Jewish settlers that occupy land illegally need to go and stop pissing people off. Work things out, why the hate? I doubt anything good is gonna happen anytime soon, though.

 

[Zebo]

By giving land away, Israel will have to give up areas that are used to secure itself, as a buffer zone.
-------------

This is part of the problem. Since Israel borders are bound by poplulus areas they have no alternative to trade lives for land for this Bufferzone. And the Bufferzone is of perpetual growth because it's never actually buffered when arab people are living in it or border it. In this bufferzone they place the most militant hasidic Jews armed very well by design to ensure conflict with the now displaced militant Arabs living there. Rinse repeat until it now looks to me like Palestine has no right to exist, not Israel which has continuous growth into Arab owned lands. The "bufferzone" ideal is flawed when you have no buffer. A buffer means a no mans land like the 42nd parallel in korea which is 5 miles wide and anyone within it is elminated by either side. Not the situation in isreal/palestine.

 

[Czar]

The best buffer zone is another country not willing to risk war in fear of loosing what it has. In the current situation and in modern warfare a buffer zone like the Israelis are trying to mantain is useless

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: dejacky
i think both sides are at fault... i don't think either "army" is moral...they're both puppets of moronic legislation and politics.

Yup, the only way this will end is if both sides cease to exist. Both are guilty, both use immoral and detestable tactics to gain the upper hand. Hell, Israel ATTACKED the United States unprovoked in 1967, look up the USS Liberty (it was on the History Channel recently). If LBJ wasn't such a puss and recalled the planes going to help the Liberty (for fear that it was the Russians attacking us and he didn't want to start a nuke war before knowing all the details), we probably would have retaliated against Israel's military. Instead, our government covers the whole thing up b/c Israel was supposedly our "ally" (yeah right). Israel wouldn't dare attack a US Civilian ship today flying the American flag, I'd love to see that. 34 US Sailors killed, and they tried to murder 200 (the Israeli torpedo luckily hit an I-Beam that blew a 40X40 hole in the side of the ship, or else it would have sank)... Yet I digress...

I personally don't have anything against 2nd gen Jews and Palestinians living in the US... it's the 1st gen, or the ones living in the Middle East, who spread this hate... they should not be allowed into our country to breed this hate IMHO.

 

[Trente]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: dejacky
i think both sides are at fault... i don't think either "army" is moral...they're both puppets of moronic legislation and politics.

Yup, the only way this will end is if both sides cease to exist. Both are guilty, both use immoral and detestable tactics to gain the upper hand. Hell, Israel ATTACKED the United States unprovoked in 1967, look up the USS Liberty (it was on the History Channel recently). If LBJ wasn't such a puss and recalled the planes going to help the Liberty (for fear that it was the Russians attacking us and he didn't want to start a nuke war before knowing all the details), we probably would have retaliated against Israel's military. Instead, our government covers the whole thing up b/c Israel was supposedly our "ally" (yeah right). Israel wouldn't dare attack a US Civilian ship today flying the American flag, I'd love to see that. 34 US Sailors killed, and they tried to murder 200 (the Israeli torpedo luckily hit an I-Beam that blew a 40X40 hole in the side of the ship, or else it would have sank)... Yet I digress...

I personally don't have anything against 2nd gen Jews and Palestinians living in the US... it's the 1st gen, or the ones living in the Middle East, who spread this hate... they should not be allowed into our country to breed this hate IMHO.

Are you real?

Do you, for a moment believe Israel would want to mess with the US, let alone in a time when there was war all around it?!

THAT WAS WAR, damn it! That ship could have been sent by the enemy with a faked American flag.

I am truly positive that the attack was unintentional, even though I do not know the exact details of the case... I believe that Israel did not want to take any risk and decided to take that ship down, no matter what.

 

[arsbanned]

am truly positive that the attack was unintentional, even though I do not know the exact details of the case.

You're making assumptions I won't rely on.
How about the cases where Israel has been caught spying on the U.S. No bad intentions there wither, right?
The U.S. should stop providing any monetary assistance to Israel, and stop now. We never be seen as even handed until we do. If Israel wants to slaughter civilians on their own without American aid, fine, let the Middle East take care of itself.

 

[mogman]

Originally posted by: AcidicFury

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Besides, one could say that Americans were terrorists during the Revolutionary War. Oh, thats right. We weren't, because we are AMERICAN.

No, the reason why we weren't terrorists in the Revolutionary War was because there were "gentlemanly rules of engagement".

Fighting took place between our militia/Continental Army and the British soldiers.

The British soldiers did not "for the most part" intentionally kill/raze our civilians(read noncombatants) and civilian targets to try and break the American side. They focused on fighting our "official" military/militia members.............NOT our civilian population.

Likewise, we as the "opressees" did not send "freedom fighters" into Britain and kill/bomb/shoot their civilians because the British were "oppressing us" or trying to take our land.

Granted, urban combat is always a sticky/messy situation and the Palestianians have a very convuluted govt/"army" system in place, but it does not excuse them from bombing/targetinging Israeli civilian targets. If they want to target IDF soliders/targets, that is acceptable. They are both fighting entities for their respective side.

Unfortunately, the IDF/Israel gets a bad rap due to the fact that the "soldiers" they are attempting to fight hide and fight in civilian population centers. I don't deny that "collaterla damage" has occurred on the part of the Israelis. This would happen no matter what, however I don't believe it is an intentional tactic by the Israelis to terrorize the Palestinians by targeting their women/children/noncombatants. This is a LOSE-LOSE situation for both sides.

There is no easy solution for this, not to mention that religious beliefs muddy the waters even more. I for one have no place to say which side is truy right or who owns the land since I sit here in my cushy US home far removed from the religion, location, and situation.

I do feel however that the history/past is not the end-all basis for who should live there. Unfortunately, the way the real world works, the conquerer gets the spoils. Bottom line is the Israelis are there to stay, as are the Palestinians. Neither group can be displaced in this day and age.

So it comes down to a fair and equitable allocation of the current basket of Palestine/Israel to make the majority of both parties happy. There needs to be some give/take from BOTH sides as Israel has to give up on the whole "buffer zone" idea since they are dealing which such a geographically small area for such a high density of people to share btw two "nation states".

All I can say is "insert your deity here" please help to end the fighting and stop the tragic/senseless civilian deaths on BOTH sides so that each group may live in peace and people can enjoy the prosperity and normalcy of life that we take for granted here in the USA and elsewhere in the world.