An update on the CA budget: our first veto

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
BTW
Texas has a balanced budget without raising taxes...
How is it that these states can do it, but California can not?

Oh, let's take that shining example of Texas.

24th in unemployment - and that's the good news.

#1 in workers at minimum wage or less
#1 in citizens without health insurance
Note: at the same time the Republicans are trying to take them off Medicare/Medicaid.
#4 in deficit; #5 in deficit as a percent of the budget (20.5&#37
From December 2007 to April 2011, wages in TX are up 0.6%; in CA up 9.6%.

On the SAME DAY he launched a petition against taking the federal stimulus, after promising not to do so, he accepted $6.4B stimulus from the federal government.

Texas is the #1 state most dependent on the federal stimulus. The stimulus provided 97% of the funds Texas used for reducing their deficit.

(I'd link a clip with this info, but technical problems).
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
No I didn't watch it, but I'm sure it shows chickens dying or being slaughtered or whatever. Stereotypical PETA "if you eat kfc, god with kill a chicken" quasi-argument.

None of that has any bearing on that prop being retarded policy. You're eating the same eggs, the only difference now is that nevada gets to collect that corp income tax and ship the eggs over to you. Congrats, treehugger emotional policy FTL.

The irony you and these people use the same tactic to push stupid policy:

Post after you watch your punishment, and I'll read the post.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
You think his drop in ratings could be related to his personal scandals??

Or do you think most of it was due to his terrible performance in office?
Either way, the voters were duped by another failed Republican executive.
And where the hell is Indian? Did you learn that in Texas schools?
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
You have a Dem controlled legislature.

CA has had no interest in a blanced budget.

If the blame can be shifted rather than accepting responsibility, it will be done.

The evil Republicans are spending the state into oblivion.

The Dems put forward a budget to the governor; without the help of the Republicans. The budget failed with a Dem govenor. That should indicate something about the Dem leadership that they can not craft together a RESPONSIBLE budget.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
The Dems don't get a pass here and neither do the Right Wingnuts. Hopefully if Brown does what he says he will, CA politicians of both parties will be shown as the assholes they are which is just a microcosm of the Country as a whole
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
The Dems don't get a pass here and neither do the Right Wingnuts. Hopefully if Brown does what he says he will, CA politicians of both parties will be shown as the assholes they are which is just a microcosm of the Country as a whole

1) Since they did put up a bidget, does that mean they now get paid.

2) Since they do not have a operational budget; what happens to the CA finances?
  • borrow more $$ at higher rates
  • slash services
  • slash payroll
  • ignore the situation - attempt to pass the buck along
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
1) Since they did put up a bidget, does that mean they now get paid.

2) Since they do not have a operational budget; what happens to the CA finances?
  • borrow more $$ at higher rates
  • slash services
  • slash payroll
  • ignore the situation - attempt to pass the buck along

Back to the drawing board.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Given Browns age, his lack of desire to run for a second term and his past actions I think it'll be the Dems who blink first, at least I'm hoping. He's an odd bird, even back in the 90's he was bucking the Dem Decision Makers and was considered a PITA by the party
 

TmBlackFlag

Senior member
Dec 26, 2002
308
0
71
Wow this mentality is EXACTLY why california is fucked.

Let me explain the idea of a balanced budget, the way any viable business operates:
You asses your revenue and from that you adjust your expenses accordingly. If your revenue is up, you have more money to spend. If the revenue is down, you have to cut expenses. Notice how firms lay off works and cut free coffee/birthday parties/etc in bad economy? Coincidence?


Apparently the california version of this is spend money first, look at revenues later and then issue debt/tax people for the difference. When tax receipts are up, spend more, when tax receipts are down, tax more. Briliant!

Craig,

I'm a California resident and socially liberal, fiscal conservative. I'm 100% against tax increases because of Haliks comments here. While you've made a lot of good points to justify the temporary tax increases, what say you of this? Why does the private sector have to drastically cut back workforce during tough times while the public sector largely does not? That is the most frustrating thing for me as a taxpayer, especially one who has worked as a consultant in the public sector and seen the downright laziness and lack of effiency of government workers.

I know some teachers have been laid off but it doesn't seem like public sector cuts are anywhere near the private sector. Do you have any references to justify tax extensions, instead of reducing the public sector workforce?
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
Craig,

I'm a California resident and socially liberal, fiscal conservative. I'm 100% against tax increases because of Haliks comments here. While you've made a lot of good points to justify the temporary tax increases, what say you of this? Why does the private sector have to drastically cut back workforce during tough times while the public sector largely does not? That is the most frustrating thing for me as a taxpayer, especially one who has worked as a consultant in the public sector and seen the downright laziness and lack of effiency of government workers.

I know some teachers have been laid off but it doesn't seem like public sector cuts are anywhere near the private sector. Do you have any references to justify tax extensions, instead of reducing the public sector workforce?

Government is not a business.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
You believe everything you hear? Of course they say that. It's a political campaign.

Let's say you're right, some farmers will leave the state to practice torture elsewhere.

Does that mean we need to allow it here? No. You make a good argument for a federal law.

If China allows terrible worker abuse, do we have to do the same?

Your punishment for defending the cruelty is to watch this video supporting the law:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb8od9ZlUtM&eurl=http://uncaged.yesonprop2.com/


Are you any better because you help enable therm by purchasing their cheap products at the expense of American products and jobs?

Likewise will you and your fellow Californians reach in your pocket and spend more for animal products produced according to the new law or will you purchase the cheaper products from out of state farms?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
You have a Dem controlled legislature.

CA has had no interest in a blanced budget.

If the blame can be shifted rather than accepting responsibility, it will be done.

The evil Republicans are spending the state into oblivion.

The Dems put forward a budget to the governor; without the help of the Republicans. The budget failed with a Dem govenor. That should indicate something about the Dem leadership that they can not craft together a RESPONSIBLE budget.

A RESPONSIBLE budget has some tax extensions. They crafted that. It requires a 2/3 vote to pass. Four Republicans are needed. Every Republican opposed the RESPONSIBLE budget.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Are you any better because you help enable therm by purchasing their cheap products at the expense of American products and jobs?

Likewise will you and your fellow Californians reach in your pocket and spend more for animal products produced according to the new law or will you purchase the cheaper products from out of state farms?

Are you kidding? Californians are a big market for more expensive, more ethical products.

There are other things - import laws, tariffs, human rights in foreign policy, etc.

Just as we already pay for things like additional fees on bottles and cans for recycling, and electronics for disposal. We're getting closer to banning plastic bags at stores.
 

a777pilot

Diamond Member
Apr 26, 2011
4,261
21
81
Like what? Education? Transportation infrastructure maintenance? Law Enforcement? etc etc

Those are all areas that could be cut but the taxpayer's money is controlled by politicians so the first thing the will announce to be cut is funds for food and medicine for orphaned, homeless children with cancer. That's just how the game is played.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Craig,

I'm a California resident and socially liberal, fiscal conservative.

Hello.

I'm 100&#37; against tax increases because of Haliks comments here.

Before we get to the facts, the tone of that comment sounds more emotional than based on the facts.

A reason to support or oppose tax increases is the list of pros of cons in thesituation - but many do it for emotional reasons, whether anti-government ideology (and your tone does not sound like that's the issue at this point), or anecdotal experiences, or resentments over paying tax, etc. It's not easy to argue with those reasons.

While you've made a lot of good points to justify the temporary tax increases, what say you of this?

Thanks. I posted a response previously I might borrow from, but let's answer your points.

Why does the private sector have to drastically cut back workforce during tough times while the public sector largely does not? That is the most frustrating thing for me as a taxpayer, especially one who has worked as a consultant in the public sector and seen the downright laziness and lack of effiency of government workers.

I think that's sometimes true in both sectors. It's easy to see 'government waste' and be very resentful - there's an issue to understand there that sometimes, even inefficient, annoying, wasteful programs can be a net good and reacting with just 'cut it' can be a bad idea.

There are always challenges in 'improving efficiency' in both sectors, but sometime, in the meantime, it can make sense to pick a flawed program over no program. Other times not.

I would challenge the idea that the government hasn't had many cuts; but I'd also suggest that the economic downturn is just the time when some government services and benefits are needed MORE. It's not the time for the new capitol to be built, for the new Leerjet for the governor, for the showy new Beach projects for pleasure; but it is the time for increasing public healthcare for an increase in people who lack insurance.

I know some teachers have been laid off but it doesn't seem like public sector cuts are anywhere near the private sector. Do you have any references to justify tax extensions, instead of reducing the public sector workforce?

Frankly I don't have numbers comparing public and private, but remember part of an economic downturn tends to be private sector employment reductions.

I posted on this before, but the question is, of the three legs of the economy - consumer spending, business spending, government spending - in a downturn when consumer and business spending start a cycle reducing each other and things are crashing, do we want to also cut government and increase the cycle of crash, or do we want to listen to the economists who say that's the time government spending is essential to protecting the economy - keeping businesses open with money reaching consumers?

It IS a time for government to 'tighten its belt' for spending not helping the recover or beneficial to the society - but not all spending, penny wise pound foolish.

I can mention that one statistic I did before - that CA's revenues decreased 24% just as demands for services in the recession went up. That's a damned good reason to keep extending the taxes we had to meet needs and not add a lot of debt (which the constitution prohibits). We should look at all the cuts we can - and Democrats have made many - but a closer look at the budget seems to suggest to many that the choice between the 'cuts to the bone' and extending the tax increases is better made to extend the taxes.

Frankly in my opinion, and this is not about you, I think much of the 'other side' is at the mentality of a child pouting against taxes out of petulant ignorance with basically no idea what the choices are - that's not how to make policy though it is how to get elected in some districts with 'no new taxes' pledges.

I would say take a look at the choices being made, and pick, those cuts or those tax extensions. IMO history supports the more balanced Democrats' approach.

IMO the Republican approach leads to inadequate investment and a smaller pie for the whole society, always increasing the share of the wealth for the rich, and more poverty.

If you think the cuts are more attractive, that's all I can ask is that you looked at it and have your opinion. If you decide the balanced approach is better - we agree.

Either way, I think if you do that you are far ahead of most on the right.

One point I'll make: government spending is not all like a spending budget, where you say 'if I can buy a new boat I will, if I can't afford it I won't'.

It's also spending that is investment - that protects the economy keeping it functioning, that keeps the family in trouble from becoming the homeless, sick, criminal situation, that it can help the economy recover. It's not a business because of that.

Just as an ailing business can often do better by borrowing and cleaning up the store and improving products and advertising, than by selling its stores.
 
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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Any penalties involved or does this become a who blinks first standoff between the govenor and the Dems?

As I said before, they're checking whether the cancellation of legislator pay applies.

But regardless, I think it's the Dems who blink - but what about the Republicans?

They're the ones who need to let the voters vote on whether to extend the taxes or not, and stop putting their ignorant ideology and wealthy people's interests before the public.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
As I said before, they're checking whether the cancellation of legislator pay applies.

But regardless, I think it's the Dems who blink - but what about the Republicans?

They're the ones who need to let the voters vote on whether to extend the taxes or not, and stop putting their ignorant ideology and wealthy people's interests before the public.
The people make the choice every two years on their opinion of the legislature.

There is always the prop method - that seems to work out for them until it goes overboard and the people get what they ask for.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
The people make the choice every two years on their opinion of the legislature.

There is always the prop method - that seems to work out for them until it goes overboard and the people get what they ask for.

I'm passionately a fan of democracy compared to the alternatives.

But I don't pretend it's not often only a question between idiocy, and sponsored results.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Oh, let's take that shining example of Texas.

24th in unemployment - and that's the good news.
Texas 8&#37; unemployment
California 11.7% unemployment thank god for Nevada otherwise you'd be in last place.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm

BTW Texas is growing twice as fast as California (percentage wise) In fact the rate of growth in California is barely above the national average.

BTW2 Texas has the largest export economy in the country.

Anyway... we aren't talking about Texas and its balanced budget.
We are talking about California and its inability to live within its means.
 
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