Analyst: Intel to endorse SOI at 22-nm

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

ModestGamer

Banned
Jun 30, 2010
1,140
0
0
The human brain is amazing. Sure, there are flaws, but from all the struggles and despair we extract brilliance from it.

Probably one reason the prediction of brain-like computers coming true were pushed out to 2050's to 2000's. They realize there's still far more going on than what they know.



essentially its becuase we are on a trajectory to nowhere with our current tech. lets say we get to 5nm, then what.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computer

Actually I shouldn't be so narrow-minded in my statement...what I was really meaning to say is we go >binary with our information processing.

Be that traditional xtor-based implementations with tri-state, quad-state and so on levels (much like the "scaling" that is going on in MLC NAND at the moment) or be that because we actually embrace CMOS-based analog circuits or go the high-data density route of quantum design.

Quantum just has everyone's attention now because its sexy and sexy gets the grants (federal and corporate) so most of the activity is in that vector at the moment.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
the common art major physics notion is that "binary computers can think in yes and no, quantum computers can also think in maybe", that is total fantasy and fiction that implies that quantum computers will gain self awareness by virtue of being quantum.
first of all classifying current computer tech as "binary" is obtuse. operations are more complex than merely "yes / no"; The individual components of an individual logic gate are binary based... but that is because that is the most simple and direct way to build them, actual processing elements are built from those simple elements and are far more complex and versatile. And computer communication is commonly reduced to binary, but machine code has more flexibility then merely "yes/no" and and the actual storage often is in more then binary (SSD MLC for example, where each cell has 4 states, aka quadranery).

Quantom computing only gains in efficiency but does not somehow enable you to calculate functions that cannot be performed in current computers (just, perhaps much more slowly; it might make it more practical to perform certain calculations due to speedups).

the reason brains are so different than computers is because computers are constructs that do math (and do it well, and very very quickly), organic brains are not math processors but chemistry factories; we are very much deficient when it comes to math compared to a computer.
 
Last edited:

Sp12

Senior member
Jun 12, 2010
799
0
76
But at some point does the ability to do math really, really fast allow one to simulate the entirety of the chemistry inside a brain? Do certain problems lend themselves better to being solved by a simulated brain? Can a physical analogue of that simulation be created?

That's one of the more interesting 'ends' of scaling in my opinion.

I know I've already seen one simulation of a ~300 neuron worm's brain.
 
Last edited:

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
But at some point does the ability to do math really, really fast allow (at some point) one to simulate the entirety of the chemistry inside a brain? That's one of the more interesting ends of scaling in my opinion.

I know I've already seen one simulation of a ~300 neuron worm's brain.

The problem with that is more that we don't fully understand everything that happens in the brain yet, so we can't just write a program that simulates it. (or better yet, design dedicated hardware that does)
If you knew, then you could string a big enough super computer and have it simulate it...
to get AI we should first understand exactly how and why it works, it will help with our understanding is enough to strip out all the stuff that is necessary to life but not to sentience, then only emulate that...

Given infinite ram and full knowledge of all the laws of physics one could make any computer run a perfect simulation of the entire universe... that is going to be unimaginably slow of course .

but it is quite possible that the efficiency improvements from quantum computing might be necessary to create a sentient processor of practical proportions (say, human brain sized)
 

Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
10,140
819
126
The problem with that is more that we don't fully understand everything that happens in the brain yet, so we can't just write a program that simulates it.

Actually you don't need to simulate the brain. All you need is to get identical output when the same input is applied. Typical black box problem.

To put in a way pc geeks can understand, the first IBM BIOS was cloned by haveing people make tables of all the possible inputs and all the possible outputs from those inputs. Those tables where then given to another group of people to create the comparable "clean" BIOS. The clone BIOS programmers had no knowledge about how the IBM BIOS functioned.

It's much as CPUs are designed today. Nobody is doing reverse engineering anymore. You create your own design that produces the same output.
 
Last edited:

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Actually you don't need to simulate the brain. All you need is to get identical output when the same input is applied. Typical black box problem.

To put in a way pc geeks can understand, the first IBM BIOS was cloned by haveing people make tables of all the possible inputs and all the possible outputs from those inputs. Those tables where then given to another group of people to create the comparable "clean" BIOS. The clone BIOS programmers had no knowledge about how the IBM BIOS functioned.

it is a lot easier to reverse engineer something like that than it is the brain though.
I said myself that you could (And should) strip all non necessarily to sentience functions once you understand it enough to know what is what. but we aren't going to do it any time soon.
 

ModestGamer

Banned
Jun 30, 2010
1,140
0
0
the difference between the human brain and a cpu is pretty easy stated like this.

binary can have 2 positions for any one piece of data. 0 or 1.

the human brain since it is purely analog can have many any range of value between zero and one to any precision.

BTW its not that the human brain is bad at math, it just has no need for massive precision. It simply needs to be able to use sensory input for very quick heuristic type of math with essential macro type problem solving. IE judging distance to say you elbow and the car door.

CPU's are about 40 billion light years away.

the human brain can also do very quick 3d math and image translation. In fact if all sensory burden was lifted from the brain along with all other tasks, i'd bet you'd find it handily would smoke all the computational power of all the worlds super computers, in one human brain.

the common art major physics notion is that "binary computers can think in yes and no, quantum computers can also think in maybe", that is total fantasy and fiction that implies that quantum computers will gain self awareness by virtue of being quantum.
first of all classifying current computer tech as "binary" is obtuse. operations are more complex than merely "yes / no"; The individual components of an individual logic gate are binary based... but that is because that is the most simple and direct way to build them, actual processing elements are built from those simple elements and are far more complex and versatile. And computer communication is commonly reduced to binary, but machine code has more flexibility then merely "yes/no" and and the actual storage often is in more then binary (SSD MLC for example, where each cell has 4 states, aka quadranery).

Quantom computing only gains in efficiency but does not somehow enable you to calculate functions that cannot be performed in current computers (just, perhaps much more slowly; it might make it more practical to perform certain calculations due to speedups).

the reason brains are so different than computers is because computers are constructs that do math (and do it well, and very very quickly), organic brains are not math processors but chemistry factories; we are very much deficient when it comes to math compared to a computer.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76

haven't gotten to the cosa002.pdf yet, but I agree with most of what the guy/gal is saying in the temporal intelligence article. I have been saying that the GOAI guys are going about everything wrong for years now.
my biggest issue with the temporal intelligence article is that it seems to focus on creating an AI without understanding it (by emulating the neuron's input/output and letting one grow) rather then fully understanding how and why it works the way it does first and then constructing one. For example, we know humans who suffered brain damage would occasionally see major changes in their personality, including becoming psychopathic. Before creating AI it would be important to make sure you know why and how to make it be empathic. futuristic fantasy always assumes that humans:
1. Create AI that is psychopathic.
2. Enslave that AI.
since I am not a moron, I oppose to both.

One of the major things I want to achieve in life is to create AI, and I intend for that AI to be empathic, capable of love, and treated as my own child (just because I would have created it with my hands and brain rather then my reproductive organs doesn't mean it isn't my child).
 
Last edited:

deimos3428

Senior member
Mar 6, 2009
697
0
0
The human brain is amazing. Sure, there are flaws, but from all the struggles and despair we extract brilliance from it.

Probably one reason the prediction of brain-like computers coming true were pushed out to 2050's to 2000's. They realize there's still far more going on than what they know.
Excellent post. The human brain has been repeatedly underestimated, because we fail to realize just how badly computers are playing catch-up.

We're talking about a biological machine that has been evolving to survive a complex, hostile environment for about half a billion years. Ever look at one of those "maps" showing all of the major interconnections of the internet? You've got something approximating that amount of complexity, if not more -- in an organ the size of a grapefruit.

Nature is humbling us, and I personally suspect that trend will continue well into the next century. One thing is certain: every single time we learn more about how it works, we also get a hard lesson in how little we really knew before.
 

grimpr

Golden Member
Aug 21, 2007
1,095
7
81
haven't gotten to the cosa002.pdf yet, but I agree with most of what the guy/gal is saying in the temporal intelligence article. I have been saying that the GOAI guys are going about everything wrong for years now.
my biggest issue with the temporal intelligence article is that it seems to focus on creating an AI without understanding it (by emulating the neuron's input/output and letting one grow) rather then fully understanding how and why it works the way it does first and then constructing one. For example, we know humans who suffered brain damage would occasionally see major changes in their personality, including becoming psychopathic. Before creating AI it would be important to make sure you know why and how to make it be empathic. futuristic fantasy always assumes that humans:
1. Create AI that is psychopathic.
2. Enslave that AI.
since I am not a moron, I oppose to both.

One of the major things I want to achieve in life is to create AI, and I intend for that AI to be empathic, capable of love, and treated as my own child (just because I would have created it with my hands and brain rather then my reproductive organs doesn't mean it isn't my child).

Grand ambition, i wish you good luck.

Here are some more things you may find helpful.

http://www.bergen.edu/phr/121/NagarjunaGC.pdf
http://bahai-library.com/personal/jw/other.pubs/nagarjuna/nagarjuna.pdf
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |