Anand wants to know how you feel about Apple...

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GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
0
0
Originally posted by: Cerb
...and I get a dialog asking me what to do, and telling it is an executable. If my grandmother, who needs me just to hook up her new DVD player, can figure out not to open executable files, anybody can.

Windows relies on the application to send out a warning to the user. If the application implements no warning, or the user just breezes through the dialog without reading it, much harm can be done. Mac OS X does these dialogs at a lower level and is consequently more effective. A subtle, but important difference. Why did MS choose the "I'll warn you but you know this might be bad" type of dialog? Because it was easier and cheaper to do than the proper way. I wonder if this will change in SP2.

You didn't answer...if it is just an inconvinience, then why did bother to make this feature and disable it, instead of never including it to begin with? It must do *something* useful.

Well, I think I did answer but I'll rephrase it. Mac OS X inconveniences the user in order to gain privileges to do what he/she wants to do. Windows does not in general, and in the case of MS e-mail clients, they merely ask whether something should be done. You'd think this would be enough to stop people, but the prevalence of e-mail worms says otherwise. The difference between Apple and Microsoft's approach, is like the difference between a friend that will hold you back from a fight until you push him out of the way, and a friend that merely sits there when you're all hyped up and says "I wouldn't do that if I were you". The lack of viruses on operating systems that implement the former approach indicates it is probably a more effective means of stopping this method of infection.

No, they should not be admins. If I can help it, those I don't trust messing with settings aren't.
But even without a root password, just an extra dialog box here and there would make such a huge difference in actual security for dumb users...but then the users would bitch about it being harder than it was before.

That is one of the things Apple has going for them: they can tell you how it is, tell you why it is, and you believe it (even when they are BSing). M$ gets nothing but critizism from home users, and then critizism from enthusiasts and business users for fixing the home user's problem. Yet they seem to refuse to sit down and decide that one's gripes are more important for the desktop OS, and that does irk me.

And herein lies the problem. It doesn't lie with Windows users. The clued-in want to lessen their exposure to vulnerabilities. But you know as well as I that despite best intentions, it's more difficult to get the same things done on Windows as a Power User or lesser status, than on a Mac as a user capable of administration after being authenticated.

Microsoft could refine and enhance the runas command, but they don't. In fact, it doesn't even work properly with some applications. Not to mention it is simply clunky. So in a MS environment, many choose to simply have inherent privileges that you don't, and shouldn't need all the time. In an Apple Mac OS X or other modern UNIX, you have a much more restricted set of inherent privileges and then an easy mechanism to provide for on-the-fly privilege escalation.

I shouldn't need full administrative privileges just because I like to play a videogame now and then, that writes to C:\Program Files and for which I would need full administrative privileges to write to. In this respect, the fix is you force video game makers to respect user profiles for any save games and what not. And on the other hand, if I have some application I use daily but infrequently that makes a system-wide change (hence requiring administrative privileges), I shouldn't have to choose between roaming around as administrator all the time, or logging out as a restricted user and back in as an administrator, just to run it conveniently. The application should be able to simply communicate with an API that does the authentication on the fly, and when the program is done doing the system-wide changes, it should give up the privileges it has been granted or risk losing them after a certain period of time.
 

Idoxash

Senior member
Apr 30, 2001
615
0
0
In my opinion users/humans that argue over differ computer bands and how one rule over the other and how the refuse to accept that of the other band base on tech, cost, software, other reasons are totaly closed minded and this makes you very unmature. Anand wanted to know how you feel about Apple. I doubt they wanted to know how you feel about x86 base computers, how each brand sucks compared to each other ect... You ppl are totaly off topic here and this is a endless thread that will keep going on and on about Apple users and Wintel/lintel users throwing bombs at each other because their closed minded and does not accept tech for what tech is or respect other ppl choices. Useless thread if you ask me. My advice to Anand- Next time you wish to know how users feels about something ask some already mature open minded ppl and not the Anandtech Forums. LOL, now I'm probly going to get flame like crazy but oh well guess I can get some food and drink and wait for the part 2 flaming wars. It's like Jerry Splinger up in here.

--Idoxash
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,980
126
That's debatable.
Perhaps if you're not normal.

You haven't even begun to prove how Apple/Sun/IBM/Dell/MS, or anyone, does this.
Does what?

IOW you're talking shit.
No, IOW it means I don't want to waste my time arguing logic and facts to rabid Mac zealots that have lost the concept of grasping reality.

It must be frustrating knowing what's best for everybody but not actually being able to make them do it.
Yes, that's why I suspect Mac zealots defend Apple to the very end. It must be frustrating for them to realize that they're in the 2% minority that actually enjoy paying more for less.
 

kingmike

Senior member
Sep 8, 2000
868
0
0
I myself see no reason to ever by an apple over a pc, due to price, lack of upgrade options, and finally poor software availability :sun:
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
0
76
I think this insightful comment from Anand's web log page would add a little perspective to this thread. Raises some good points regarding additional rationales of modern day mac-haters:

Originally posted by GL
Generalizations are never 20/20, but I think there are a few more subtle reasons why PC users frown upon Macs. Certainly, some of these reasons were my own prior to 2003.


1) An inflated ego over PC skills. Disregard the fact that 90% of current PC hobbyists' eyes would glaze over with the mention of smartdrv.sys, himem.sys and emm386.exe et al; or the connection between port 220/DMA 1/IRQ 5 and Soundblaster; or when asked to get excited about the simplicity of a COAST module over previous technologies. Simply put, these PC users are proud (as they should be) that they have a certain skill. But anything that will even come close to making that skill useless or outdated, is a big threat to their ego. And the funny thing is that modern PC assembly and usage is a cake walk compared to how it used to be. Today's PC enthusiasts are playing with Duplo blocks whilst yesterday's generation were forced to play with Technic kits sans instructions, so to speak. I'm sure somewhere in this world, somebody is repairing 8-track players and is damn proud. But the rest of the world has moved on. If you don't have a clue what an 8-track player is, let alone understand how to fix one, nobody cares. My suggestion to this group of people is to not let their ego get in the way of broadening their horizons when it comes to technology. Maybe that 8-track repair person's skill is rather useless today - but perhaps s/he's taught him/herself how to repair DVD players.

2) Piracy. Admit it - how many of you budget software prices into the cost of your computer? I see several hands...out of an audience of thousands. When you buy a Mac, you're paying for the hardware and the OS, iLife, and a few bundled apps. Apple may even get more out of you, as .Mac provides several services that make the experience of using their computers even more seamless. This raises the cost of the computer and there's no getting out of it. Sure, I enjoy buying my PC parts at cut-rate prices in those gray static bags too! But if I were forced to shell out for the OS and core applications I used for every PC I've assembled, I might not be so thrilled about the costs of my hobby. And no - those cheap eMachines and Dells with their own software bundles have got nothing on the quality and breadth of the software that comes pre-installed on even the lowest end Mac.

3) Fear of being associated with previous stereotypical Mac users. There was a time when I'd hide myself in the corner of the coffee shop, sipping my latté, wearing my black turtleneck, feverishly typing on my iBook hoping nobody was laughing at me, the stereotypical Mac user. OK, all kidding aside, how many people have this outdated perception of what a Mac user is? How many of the people that just answered 'yes', look down on that particular mental picture. I see; quite a few. Well, for all you geeks that don't want to be mistaken for being a San Franciscan starving artist, why not check out some of the newer Mac users. You know, like Srinidhi Varadarajan who brought new meaning to the infamous Slashdot motto "imagine a beowulf cluster of those!". Or how about Bill Joy. Or Robert Metcalfe. Or Tim O'Reilly. Or several members of the team that brings you Perl. If you can't be comfortable being listed alongside these Mac users, then you're right - perhaps they aren't your cup of tea.

Anyways, I thought I'd just bring to attention some of the more subtle, though in my opinion, more predominant reasons why some people decide not to use a Mac in this day and age. It's not all about cost and videogames.
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
167
106
Ok, let's do this point by point on the questions to which answer I know:
Originally posted by: Dug

run incredible imaging software like ffdshow
There is an ffmpeg component(the thing that actually powers ffdshow) out for Quicktime, and the popular VLC media player integrates it.
run a full on custimizable media center
Again, take a look at VLC
burn any file out there
I'm not aware of any file you can't burn, although if it's specialty(CloneCD image, etc), then it won't be a disc write like it would be with CloneCD.
add a high end sound card
The mAudio Revolution is supported on the Mac, not that makes much of a difference, since the G5s already feature a good sound system, including optical out.
If I want to add a nice raptor raid array, I can.
As you can with the Mac; in leiu of SATA support, one can still get converters, and make use of OS X's software raid, and there are hardware RAID cards out there
 

Dug

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2000
3,469
6
81
Virge-

I'm not even going to get into replying to each statement, because you have no idea how far off you are.
But I will show you an example with the first one.

You can't pick a front end for an entire media center, customize the entire front end with no limitations on what's included (HDTV, DVD, music, photos, pvr, etc.), design the look of the front end, have it link to something like Zoomplayer (which you should look into because it has more options then an entire Mac), have zoomplayer use ffdshow for custom filters, scale a dvd, use any dvd filters from any dvd player, any video decoders, and any audio decoder of your choice, and then have the whole thing shoot out your video card with a custom resolution and timings to match any tv out there using powerstrip.

Not only would it take a dual proc G5 to do this, but then you would have to find the software, which you can't.






 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: GL
Originally posted by: Cerb
...and I get a dialog asking me what to do, and telling it is an executable. If my grandmother, who needs me just to hook up her new DVD player, can figure out not to open executable files, anybody can.

Windows relies on the application to send out a warning to the user. If the application implements no warning, or the user just breezes through the dialog without reading it, much harm can be done. Mac OS X does these dialogs at a lower level and is consequently more effective. A subtle, but important difference. Why did MS choose the "I'll warn you but you know this might be bad" type of dialog? Because it was easier and cheaper to do than the proper way. I wonder if this will change in SP2.
My dreams of grandeur(sp) stop well below that . MAYBE in Longhorn, but maybe not.
You didn't answer...if it is just an inconvinience, then why did bother to make this feature and disable it, instead of never including it to begin with? It must do *something* useful.

Well, I think I did answer but I'll rephrase it. Mac OS X inconveniences the user in order to gain privileges to do what he/she wants to do. Windows does not in general, and in the case of MS e-mail clients, they merely ask whether something should be done. You'd think this would be enough to stop people, but the prevalence of e-mail worms says otherwise. The difference between Apple and Microsoft's approach, is like the difference between a friend that will hold you back from a fight until you push him out of the way, and a friend that merely sits there when you're all hyped up and says "I wouldn't do that if I were you". The lack of viruses on operating systems that implement the former approach indicates it is probably a more effective means of stopping this method of infection.
That I got. Same as Linuxes do. What I was intending to ask was, "What is Universal Access' assistive-device functionality?"
No, they should not be admins. If I can help it, those I don't trust messing with settings aren't.
But even without a root password, just an extra dialog box here and there would make such a huge difference in actual security for dumb users...but then the users would bitch about it being harder than it was before.

That is one of the things Apple has going for them: they can tell you how it is, tell you why it is, and you believe it (even when they are BSing). M$ gets nothing but critizism from home users, and then critizism from enthusiasts and business users for fixing the home user's problem. Yet they seem to refuse to sit down and decide that one's gripes are more important for the desktop OS, and that does irk me.

And herein lies the problem. It doesn't lie with Windows users. The clued-in want to lessen their exposure to vulnerabilities. But you know as well as I that despite best intentions, it's more difficult to get the same things done on Windows as a Power User or lesser status, than on a Mac as a user capable of administration after being authenticated.

Microsoft could refine and enhance the runas command, but they don't. In fact, it doesn't even work properly with some applications. Not to mention it is simply clunky. So in a MS environment, many choose to simply have inherent privileges that you don't, and shouldn't need all the time. In an Apple Mac OS X or other modern UNIX, you have a much more restricted set of inherent privileges and then an easy mechanism to provide for on-the-fly privilege escalation.
ANd when you screw up X, realize why there is a root PW in the first place.
I shouldn't need full administrative privileges just because I like to play a videogame now and then, that writes to C:\Program Files and for which I would need full administrative privileges to write to. In this respect, the fix is you force video game makers to respect user profiles for any save games and what not. And on the other hand, if I have some application I use daily but infrequently that makes a system-wide change (hence requiring administrative privileges), I shouldn't have to choose between roaming around as administrator all the time, or logging out as a restricted user and back in as an administrator, just to run it conveniently. The application should be able to simply communicate with an API that does the authentication on the fly, and when the program is done doing the system-wide changes, it should give up the privileges it has been granted or risk losing them after a certain period of time.
...or the application should be forced to write data in user\Application Data\*, instead of Program files. I don't know exactly how that would affect given user groups, but it could easily be forced (if you don't, you can't claim the App requires Windows ), and easily applied right, providing and elegant solution. As it is, such things are optional, use heavily by open source apps (used to etc) and M$ themselves, and all but ignored otherwise.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: Sunner
It's funny how many Windows lovers keep mentioning the lack of customization, while I could say the same about Windows compared to Linux, *BSD, etc, but in those cases customization suddenly becomes a moot point.

And given the number of people who seem to think compuers have the sole purpose of gaming, I wonder how many people around here actually use their computers to ever get something useful done.
How much can you customize things in any other OS more than you can in Windows, and do so easily?
Sole purpose of gaming? No...gaming is just what takes most of the $$$, so it means more. W/o gaming, I wouldn't need more than a PII 500.

For one things, easily is just a matter of oppinion, what someone might find easy, someone else might find a PITA.
For example, switching window manager under *NIX and XFree86 takes a few seconds, even making XP themable takes a bunch of tricks and isn't supported(unless your idea of theming is changing colors).
Another point is, can you even install XP without the GUI? Media player? IE? Anything? No, you get one bug pile of stuff, and that's it, hardly very customizable.

Now, let's not turn this into a *NIX vs Windows thing(well I guess it already kinda is with Mac vs x86/Windows), but the customization argument is one that a Windows user will never be able to win.
 

jose

Platinum Member
Oct 11, 1999
2,076
0
0
Don't ask don't tell.....

I guess some people like mac's, just not me.

Regards,
Jose
 

Paulson

Elite Member
Feb 27, 2001
10,689
0
0
www.ifixidevices.com
Well, I've got an iPod, but I don't think that's the type of equipment we're talking about here....

The problem with macs are that you cannot build them yourself. If I had a choice about what case I wanted, what components and all the hardware stuff, I'd actually probably consider building myself a mac. But, since they don't give us that option, I don't think it's very viable to bother with looking towards the mac for my computing needs.
 

GL

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,547
0
0
Originally posted by: Cerb

That I got. Same as Linuxes do. What I was intending to ask was, "What is Universal Access' assistive-device functionality?"

Ahh I misunderstood your question. Universal Access is basically intended to help people with various disabilities use the operating system. Assistive devices are peripherals that disabled people might use to interact with Universal Access functionality. I actually am not well versed on these devices, but in theory a blind person could have a device that reads aloud the contents of the object currently in focus (i.e. the text box in the web browser I'm using to reply in this thread). Moreover, the device might be smart enough to "type" for the blind person in this text box. Obviously, this seems like a trivial task, but in a multi-tasking environment with dozens of windows open it is probably difficult for people with various disabilities to operate their computer.

Enter the "Enable access for assistive devices" feature. With this option enabled, Mac OS X basically opens up a whole bunch of information to applications that should otherwise be private. I can tap into the main event loop and tell OS X to notify my application whenever there is a change of window focus. You can see how this would be useful for these devices meant to help the disabled. You can also see how this might be useful to a malicious user! Once you have the current window in focus, you can dig deeper into the object hierarchy and obtain more information - right down to text in individual text fields, button values, check boxes, etc. This affords assistive devices great freedom and power, but it also opens the door to a malicious program that essentially peers over a user's shoulder 24/7. Here are some example of the depth and breadth of information available for each UI element. This first example demonstrates the information available for the address bar located in Safari. This second example is a little bit more interesting. It's the information available to assistive devices for the Message Text: box in Safari that I'm typing this very message in. Imagine a virus being able to screen scrape all user input and be able to make contextual sense of it - then report back to someone.

The thing is there are some instances where this feature would be very useful to regular users. But it's an all or nothing proposition - because Apple figures only disabled people are going to use this feature and they are a significantly small subset of an already small userbase to worry about this feature being attractive enough to exploit. I would like to see Apple restrict access to this information to applications/devices on a per-application/device basis as opposed to how it is now. If there's any bright spot, it's that the feature is disabled by default. But I've written some neat experimental programs that make use of this feature - at some point I'd like to be able to use it without worrying about a rogue program also making use of it. Obviously, once a virus is on your system I suppose you can kiss all sense of privacy goodbye - but why hand potential viruses and trojan horses this data on a silver platter like this?
 

Bovinicus

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
3,145
0
0
If I was more into media editing and content creation, then I might consider adding an Apple to my collection. However, they are too expensive and I am already knowledgeable in the world of PCs. There is no reason for me to go with an Apple, because my primary computer usage consists of gaming and internet surfing. However, I wouldn't mind it if I could get a cheap one through a friend, or some other method. It would be cool to play around with it and learn something about them.
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: Sunner
It's funny how many Windows lovers keep mentioning the lack of customization, while I could say the same about Windows compared to Linux, *BSD, etc, but in those cases customization suddenly becomes a moot point.

And given the number of people who seem to think compuers have the sole purpose of gaming, I wonder how many people around here actually use their computers to ever get something useful done.
How much can you customize things in any other OS more than you can in Windows, and do so easily?
Sole purpose of gaming? No...gaming is just what takes most of the $$$, so it means more. W/o gaming, I wouldn't need more than a PII 500.

Easily? What fun is customization if someone is holding your hand?

And I think the gaming point is a decent one - but I don't understand why so many people have this concept that you only own one computer. You can game on your pc and do other stuff on your mac. Variety is the spice of life..
 

Rectalfier

Golden Member
Nov 21, 1999
1,589
0
0
And I think the gaming point is a decent one - but I don't understand why so many people have this concept that you only own one computer. You can game on your pc and do other stuff on your mac. Variety is the spice of life..

Those spices don't mix.
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
Originally posted by: Rectalfier
And I think the gaming point is a decent one - but I don't understand why so many people have this concept that you only own one computer. You can game on your pc and do other stuff on your mac. Variety is the spice of life..

Those spices don't mix.

Good one!
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0
Originally posted by: Markfw900
Can you say "Over-priced ?" I would try it, but not at the prices I see now. I also like being able to build my own using generic parts. Not an option with Apple ?? (not that I know of anyway)

 

NFactor

Member
Sep 21, 2003
153
0
0
I think my sig says it all.

Macs are improving, I'll give them that. I would never put that much money on a computer which does not compare well to cutting edge PC's and has a lack of software support.
 

nowayout99

Senior member
Dec 23, 2001
232
0
76
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: nowayout99
Hardcore Mac users would argue that Macs are not overpriced... referencing total cost of ownership, separate PC software, etc. but I still don't buy it. They also try to have it both ways, saying their high-end G5s are powerful and price competitive... and when they can't prove it, they default to the "G5s are mostly for professionals anyway" standby.

We can build very kick-ass PCs for $800-900, while that price barely covers their lowest of the low-end eMac computer.

Their margins are at LEAST 25% on their computers. PC users are spoiled, for sure. I would be more inclined to add a Mac to my collection if they were price competitive.

kick ass pc? athlon 64's cost atleast 200+ cpu alone. opterons more in the g5 level area cost double or more. no matter how much you pay, your not going to get the smart fan setup of the g5, where the o/s throttles the fans even predicting heavy usage and spinning up fans ahead. 3 separate cooling zones etc.

and how much software piracy goes into actual pc savings one has to wonder.


Like I said, they would argue. Considering I am building an A64 3200+ system right now for $800 and change, I'd say I AM building a kick-ass system. The performance different between this system and the G5 2G-Dual is in no way, shape, or form worth the $2200 premium to me, if it is even legitimately faster at all. (Also can be argued)

Smart fans and thermal zones aren't worth $2200 either. Quieter cooling is not a foreign concept on PCs, and neither is automatic fan speed adjusting. The computer will be plenty cooled and plenty quiet because I am building it as such.
 

Bovinicus

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
3,145
0
0
Originally posted by: NFactor
I think my sig says it all.

Macs are improving, I'll give them that. I would never put that much money on a computer which does not compare well to cutting edge PC's and has a lack of software support.

Haha! Great signature.
 

Idoxash

Senior member
Apr 30, 2001
615
0
0
Originally posted by: nowayout99
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: nowayout99
Hardcore Mac users would argue that Macs are not overpriced... referencing total cost of ownership, separate PC software, etc. but I still don't buy it. They also try to have it both ways, saying their high-end G5s are powerful and price competitive... and when they can't prove it, they default to the "G5s are mostly for professionals anyway" standby.

We can build very kick-ass PCs for $800-900, while that price barely covers their lowest of the low-end eMac computer.

Their margins are at LEAST 25% on their computers. PC users are spoiled, for sure. I would be more inclined to add a Mac to my collection if they were price competitive.

kick ass pc? athlon 64's cost atleast 200+ cpu alone. opterons more in the g5 level area cost double or more. no matter how much you pay, your not going to get the smart fan setup of the g5, where the o/s throttles the fans even predicting heavy usage and spinning up fans ahead. 3 separate cooling zones etc.

and how much software piracy goes into actual pc savings one has to wonder.


Like I said, they would argue. Considering I am building an A64 3200+ system right now for $800 and change, I'd say I AM building a kick-ass system. The performance different between this system and the G5 2G-Dual is in no way, shape, or form worth the $2200 premium to me, if it is even legitimately faster at all. (Also can be argued)

Smart fans and thermal zones aren't worth $2200 either. Quieter cooling is not a foreign concept on PCs, and neither is automatic fan speed adjusting. The computer will be plenty cooled and plenty quiet because I am building it as such.

Your right, they do argue but at the same time you and your kind argue back and then well the other kind argue back at your arguements and it's nothing but a rerun of the same crap because you, the other, or most ppl can't respect, accept, the fact in this world there choices some means you pay more some means you pay less but either choice will costya something somewhere the other not going to like in either way you ppl really need to stop making your self look so unmature and blaming being ignorant.

*sighs-

LOl, but wut I'm saying ppl like you all been fussing about this same topice since macs and other computer base systems came around on this world guess it won't ever stop but at least I can laf at how stupid you all sound.

--Idoxash
 

Nemesis300

Member
Nov 29, 2002
94
0
0
Mac VS PC wars!

Im just gonna rant off a few things...

Mac's design whether its Ibook, imac, G4, G5 their designs are flawless. Sleek and silent, but with PC's if you want something like that it will cost ya (ie. Lian Li). I think if you priced out a really sleek and quiet PC the price wouldnt be that far off from a mac but who knows.

Macs have a ton less viruses etc..

Windows is constantly chasing the MacOS. Longhorn will have features that MacOS X already has(ie. the nicer GUI features)

Mac has their niche and they are here to stay and wow look at those Ipods!
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Originally posted by: Sunner
Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: Sunner
It's funny how many Windows lovers keep mentioning the lack of customization, while I could say the same about Windows compared to Linux, *BSD, etc, but in those cases customization suddenly becomes a moot point.

And given the number of people who seem to think compuers have the sole purpose of gaming, I wonder how many people around here actually use their computers to ever get something useful done.
How much can you customize things in any other OS more than you can in Windows, and do so easily?
Sole purpose of gaming? No...gaming is just what takes most of the $$$, so it means more. W/o gaming, I wouldn't need more than a PII 500.

For one things, easily is just a matter of oppinion, what someone might find easy, someone else might find a PITA.
For example, switching window manager under *NIX and XFree86 takes a few seconds, even making XP themable takes a bunch of tricks and isn't supported(unless your idea of theming is changing colors).
Another point is, can you even install XP without the GUI? Media player? IE? Anything? No, you get one bug pile of stuff, and that's it, hardly very customizable.
XP is skinned by default.
"a bunch of tricks" can be as easy as downloading a new shell and changing a registry entry--or letting the installer do it for you . Sure it's not supported, but neither is most anything in Linux...I'm sure how Apple compares in this regard. Although I've never had an install get FUBAR'd from WindowsBlinds, XP skinning, or the use of any BlackBox Win32 variant or Litestep, even as far back as NT4 SP3.
Yeah, you're stuck w/ IE and WMP...hence Windows has an inherent bloat factor. Fine for desktops--why NOT have IE, WMP, etc (not counting that Opera, Mozilla, Winamp, Foobar2000, etc. are superior)? The GUI, OTOH, is part of why it is called Windows. Good or bad, it will not be removed, even when it can be. And M$ actually makes things pretty nice with the MMC...it's just too easy for other programs (backup apps tend to do this a lot) to make it crash all the time.
IMO, the best thing is what I have right now: A minimal GUI, giving me all the options I get with one taking more space, and an easy to use command line. Use Linux/Unix (terminal window) or break the EULA for Windows (Litestep's LSXCommand is great), that's the way to have it.

For servers...well, maybe that's why you can do a lot with an old P166, Linux and Apache (or in my case, a PII 333)?
Every time I get in a bind, I find Windows a better desktop. Simple as that. Linux is great, and I'd put up with some of the nice desktop distros if games ran on them, but it is just too easy for things to screw up and then take forever to fix, especially with X. It's very likely nothing more than newer, more robust, versions of X will do anything for it.
Now, let's not turn this into a *NIX vs Windows thing(well I guess it already kinda is with Mac vs x86/Windows), but the customization argument is one that a Windows user will never be able to win.
...but will you be able to win it, either?
 

Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
0
0
Originally posted by: Cerb

"a bunch of tricks" can be as easy as downloading a new shell and changing a registry entry--or letting the installer do it for you . Sure it's not supported, but neither is most anything in Linux...
"Supported" means different things though. If something is "not supported" in windows, then it can cause mysterious breakages, might need redoing if some MS software decides to "fix" it, and MS might altogether prevent it from working in the future. Free software is "unsupported" technically, but the difference is that people want you to hack it and they don't keep secrets.

Every time I get in a bind, I find Windows a better desktop. Simple as that.
I always felt the opposite. I tended to get in binds with windows, that doesn't happen to me anymore with linux.

Linux is great, and I'd put up with some of the nice desktop distros if games ran on them, but it is just too easy for things to screw up and then take forever to fix, especially with X. It's very likely nothing more than newer, more robust, versions of X will do anything for it.

You mean, do anything for you. X works great for me. But fear not, the future is looking much brighter for X.
 

MAME

Banned
Sep 19, 2003
9,281
1
0
I've tried PC's and apples for years as a casual user and a programmer. I have yet to find one CS major (including myself) who preferred the Apples
 
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