anand's jaguar article

[Exophase]

That's a bummer. They should have done what VIA did, that they didn't do it just goes to show how incompetent they really are. Are there any benchmarks for VIA CPUs with the default and the modified string? I'd be curious how much performance difference we are talking about. If it's 5% it's a completely different story then 40%.

Agner Fog has some and there's some other information here:

http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=120#49

It's pretty substantial for some programs because we're talking the difference between SSEx vs int + x87. Integer programs that don't vectorize well will show little difference.

But that only applies to 32-bit, which is growing more irrelevant. For 64-bit the baseline is SSE2, and the difference between SSE2 and later versions - that compilers like ICC are able to reasonably exploit from high level code - isn't nearly as substantial. You can make an exception for AVX/AVX2, but only on processors that have wider execution units for it. At the current time that only includes Intel processors.

 

[NTMBK]

You can make an exception for AVX/AVX2, but only on processors that have wider execution units for it. At the current time that only includes Intel processors.

I thought that BD/PD could execute the full 256-bit width in one go, by ganging together both 128bt pipes? (Not to mention Piledriver has support for FMA3, which includes 128bit ops.)

 

[Lepton87]

Agner Fog has some and there's some other information here:

http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=120#49

It's pretty substantial for some programs because we're talking the difference between SSEx vs int + x87. Integer programs that don't vectorize well will show little difference.

But that only applies to 32-bit, which is growing more irrelevant. For 64-bit the baseline is SSE2, and the difference between SSE2 and later versions - that compilers like ICC are able to reasonably exploit from high level code - isn't nearly as substantial. You can make an exception for AVX/AVX2, but only on processors that have wider execution units for it. At the current time that only includes Intel processors.

Thanks for the link, that explains a lot. When AMD will have a processor with 256bit wide vector units the performance penalty is going to be huge. On the other hand this whole heterogeneous marketing fluff that AMD is feeding us might mean that they won't launch a CPU with that wide FP units because they want to offload FP calculations to the GPU, but I don't see why they couldn't do both.

I thought that BD/PD could execute the full 256-bit width in one go, by ganging together both 128bt pipes? (Not to mention Piledriver has support for FMA3, which includes 128bit ops.)

I don't remember how exactly they implemented it but there is no speed-up on BD/PD by AVX instructions compared to 128bit SSE instructions.
ps. The most performance that you can extract from BD is by using XOP instructions.

 

[Exophase]

I thought that BD/PD could execute the full 256-bit width in one go, by ganging together both 128bt pipes? (Not to mention Piledriver has support for FMA3, which includes 128bit ops.)

I don't know what the difference is supposed to be between splitting an AVX op over two 128-bit FMA units and "ganging" them into one. If there's any difference it would be the limitation that both halves execute in the same cycle. Suffice it to say, one AVX op gets decoded into two macro ops (actually something of a decode bottleneck) and all internal data-paths are 128-bit, so what I said applies. You really don't want to use AVX on Bulldozer or Piledriver. If you need the extra instruction features you should use AVX128.

FMA3 isn't part of AVX and I have no idea if ICC even has a dispatch mode for it. It might be ganged up with whatever dispatch they use for AVX2.. if they even have one yet.

 

[NTMBK]

I don't know what the difference is supposed to be between splitting an AVX op over two 128-bit FMA units and "ganging" them into one. If there's any difference it would be the limitation that both halves execute in the same cycle. Suffice it to say, one AVX op gets decoded into two macro ops (actually something of a decode bottleneck) and all internal data-paths are 128-bit, so what I said applies. You really don't want to use AVX on Bulldozer or Piledriver. If you need the extra instruction features you should use AVX128.

FMA3 isn't part of AVX and I have no idea if ICC even has a dispatch mode for it. It might be ganged up with whatever dispatch they use for AVX2.. if they even have one yet.

They have dispatch for AVX2 in version 13, as well as support for the Xeon Phi. Not sure where FMA3 falls, but I assume it is only in their AVX2 path (Haswell).

 

[Idontcare]

So it's okay for bribes to take place as long as AMD is the one getting paid off?

That is the psychology. AMD is pure and noble, uncorrupted and incorruptible. Everyone else is the son of the devil.

 

[Chiropteran]

That is the psychology. AMD is pure and noble, uncorrupted and incorruptible. Everyone else is the son of the devil.

Or maybe it could be that people realize a PC CPU monopoly is pretty damn bad for the computer industry, and as such are a little more harsh towards Intel than AMD.

If Intel is allowed to pull evil tricks and kill AMD, computer industry suffers.

If AMD pulls some evil tricks and steals market share from Intel, the computer industry does better overall.

So there are perfectly logical reasons to be a little unfair towards Intel, because Intel needs to be taken down a notch.

 

[Abwx]

That is the psychology. AMD is pure and noble, uncorrupted and incorruptible. Everyone else is the son of the devil.

AMD has honnest businesses practices , wich is not the case
nor for Intel neither for Nvidia who didnt hesitate to sell
dozen million unreliables chips willfully.

 

[Vesku]

That is the psychology. AMD is pure and noble, uncorrupted and incorruptible. Everyone else is the son of the devil.

Don't see anyone even close to implying this. It's just with less resources and being the 20% in a 20/80 market division there isn't that much they could or can get away with. I have no doubt if AMD had been the market leader in anything Ruiz would have used many similar unethical anti-competitive practices to keep competitors at bay. I think the payola P4 stuff really tarnishes Otellini in terms of ethical business but unlike Ruiz he at least was in charge of the better, stronger company and he realized the importance of maintaining the manufacturing lead and R&D spend. Also, in all honesty given modern political and business practices, and somewhat related how people will overlook or forgive terrible behavior if they view that person as talented or useful (Michael Vick anyone?), I'm sure there are plenty of people that admire Otellini for the "whatever it takes" attitude.

 

[Phynaz]

Or maybe it could be that people realize a PC CPU monopoly is pretty damn bad for the computer industry, and as such are a little more harsh towards Intel than AMD.

If Intel is allowed to pull evil tricks and kill AMD, computer industry suffers.

If AMD pulls some evil tricks and steals market share from Intel, the computer industry does better overall.

So there are perfectly logical reasons to be a little unfair towards Intel, because Intel needs to be taken down a notch.

You just proved my point.

 

[Lepton87]

(...)I'm sure there are plenty of people that admire Otellini for the "whatever it takes" attitude.

Remember that only the paranoid survive

 

[AnandThenMan]

What is wrong with bribery? We do it all the time, in spirit, only we don't like to call it what it is because it kinda takes the wind out of sails as hypocrites when we want to castigate others for doing it.

Just the other night I took my family to Red Robin for dinner. I had to pay my waiter a healthy 20% tip just to bribe them into giving me adequate service.

I just received my bribery payment the other day in the mail, my mail-in-rebate card from Newegg came!

We are a bribe-based culture. Is it so surprising that Intel's employees do it too?

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. What you describe is nothing at all like the bribery in this context, and is an extremely odd (to say the least) way to defend what Intel did, which was 100% illegal in most parts of the world.

I think the payola P4 stuff really tarnishes Otellini in terms of ethical business but unlike Ruiz he at least was in charge of the better, stronger company and he realized the importance of maintaining the manufacturing lead and R&D spend.

Really easy to pour money into R&D when you're products are being pushed into the market in large part because you are bribing your suppliers to exclude the competition. Make a 2nd rate product, doesn't matter get financially rewarded anyway.

 

[Vesku]

Really easy to pour money into R&D when you're products are being pushed into the market in large part because you are bribing your suppliers to exclude the competition. Make a 2nd rate product, doesn't matter get financially rewarded anyway.

Easy at first when you are telling your board that the money spent in R&D and Fab process will reduce or eliminate the money you are paying out to keep customers happy. But he didn't pull back on that spending even after several product generations of having genuinely better products. Again he did some terrible things but many people have a tendency to overlook that if you also demonstrate you can benefit "the team". Where as one of the first reactions of Ruiz to having success was to trim R&D and Fab spending, he was solidly in the 6-12 month "got to get my money" outlook that pervades publicly traded companies.

Of course I'm speaking in terms of US culture. Just like with tipping this stuff is seen differently depending on the culture. Interesting that Europe is not big into tipping and also has a tendency to more thoroughly enforce their monopoly, market manipulation decisions. Can see this in comparing how Microsoft behavior was tracked over time by US and EU, didn't take long for US regulators to kind of want the whole thing to just go away.

 

[AnandThenMan]

I'm not saying that Intel has not taken their cash and used it wisely. They most certainly have. But a big part of their corporate culture is to do whatever it takes to cripple their competition, illegal or not, not to mention what is ethical.

Intel forced Sony to ship 90% of their product mix using Intel processors, otherwise Sony would lose competitive pricing or even be cut off altogether. This is a classic bribe, and is more certainly not anything like tipping at your favourite eatery. :|

 

[lamedude]

Not sure where FMA3 falls, but I assume it is only in their AVX2 path (Haswell).

ICC on FMA.
"This option has no effect unless setting CORE-AVX2 or higher is specified".

 

[Vesku]

@AnandThenMan, oh it's certainly not above board like tipping is. I was just pointing out that handing over cash for consideration, tipping but also lobbying, is quite culturally pervasive in the US where as less so in EU. That a cultural acceptance of tipping blurs the path to bribery and relating that to the EU being a bit more consistent in their anti-trust duties than the US. US has been pretty inconsistent and it often appears that the level of investigation directly relates to how much influence the accusers have with people who can light some fires (motivate investigative bodies into action).

This e-book stuff is being taken much more seriously than the Intel v AMD stuff:

http://www.tuaw.com/2013/05/15/justice-department-calls-apple-the-ringmaster-in-e-book-price/

Seems a bit inconsistent except that the parties that could be encouraging the e-book action are Google and Amazon. Not difficult to believe they have more pull than AMD ever did.

 

[krumme]

That is the psychology. AMD is pure and noble, uncorrupted and incorruptible. Everyone else is the son of the devil.

Coorporate policy and practices about coruption, bribing and compettitive policy is not an easy task, and often you can find yourself on difficult ground. That happens fx. if you dont have transparancy about your agents work to penetrate a new market. When you have others to do the dirty work for you.

But when Michael from Dell calls Otellini "asking for more money" - again, its not a difficult distintion. At that moment they both know they are on the wrong side.

Its not that difficult. Its a personal matter if you find its okey or not. I will not tollerate that behavior around me in my life, and are in the fortunate situation to decide myself - and i choose to. I know others think different, and i know many is not in a position to choose themselves.

You can put up all the strawmen you want here, but i know from your prior history, this nonsense is not representative of you judment in general. I prefer the other side.

 

[Idontcare]

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

Still keeping it classy I see :thumbsup:

What you describe is nothing at all like the bribery in this context, and is an extremely odd (to say the least) way to defend what Intel did, which was 100% illegal in most parts of the world.

Not sure how you define bribery, but I define it as:

bribe (br

b)
n. 1. Something, such as money or a favor, offered or given to a person in a position of trust to influence that person's views or conduct.
2. Something serving to influence or persuade.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bribe

I very much hope the potential of earning a tip, or losing a tip, influences and persuades my table server to provide me and my family with quality service.

I tip the valet in hopes of bribing them to take better care of my vehicle as well as reducing the wait time when it is being returned. Try not tipping your valet and see just how crappy your service becomes without a little bribery greasing the social wheels :whiste:

Likewise I am under no illusions that there is one and only one reason why certain items I buy come with a mail-in-rebate.

The MIR exists solely to influence and persuade me to purchase the item with the MIR versus the item that does not have a MIR.

People don't like to associate themselves with acts of bribery because it is unseemly and we are taught to have low regard for it, but we all partake in it so we have ourselves a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

The theory of cognitive dissonance in social psychology proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by altering existing cognitions, adding new ones to create a consistent belief system, or alternatively by reducing the importance of any one of the dissonant elements. It is the distressing mental state that people feel when they "find themselves doing things that don't fit with what they know, or having opinions that do not fit with other opinions they hold."

In the USA bribery is quite legal provided you are bribing the right people. Campaign contributions, lobbying, etc are all forms of bribery. Pork-spending, special interest groups, etc are all forms of bribery as well (votes for cash).

Bribes can be legal, they can also be illegal. But it is not necessary that a bribe be illegal in order for it to be labeled a bribe.

Obviously the individuals at Intel who made the decision to bribe the resellers into accepting pro-Intel favorable deals were not thinking it was illegal, otherwise they would not have risked jail time to do it. Just as the people who accepted the bribes from Intel were not thinking it was illegal, who wants to go to jail for taking a bribe?

I guarantee you AMD has bribed as well. You can't do business in China without paying bribes to everyone in the supply chain involved in getting your products through the border and onto a store shelf. I don't say that as a cliché, I know of it firsthand through business.

In Asia, budgeting for bribery expenses is a necessity because you are most certainly going to be paying for them if you want your products to move from Point A to Point B. It isn't illegal, it is just business.

 

[Lepton87]

@AnandThenMan, oh it's certainly not above board like tipping is. I was just pointing out that handing over cash for consideration, tipping but also lobbying, is quite culturally pervasive in the US where as less so in EU. That a cultural acceptance of tipping blurs the path to bribery and relating that to the EU being a bit more consistent in their anti-trust duties than the US.

I live in the EU and I agree, it's unthinkable that some company would sponsor a political party. That's like paying to pass a bill to make your company life easier and stifle the competition. That is OT but also to me it seems that you don't really have any choice who you will be ruled by. IMHO two political party system is just an illusion of choice. You've got only two parties, or am I wrong? Maybe I'm wrong I'm not well versed in how your politics works. Democrats and Republicans don't eat me alive by asking an honest question
Also tipping is rare where I live. Personally I would like it to be gone, waiters should just have more base salary. Isn't it like that in Japan where giving a tip might be taken as an insult?

 

[SiliconWars]

Defending bribery, defending intel regardless of their crimes, accusing AMD of bribery without proof and saying everyone in Asia is a dodgy money-grubber?

Who's keeping it classy idontcare?

You can do business in Asia without bribery btw, you just need to know the right people.

 

[Idontcare]

I live in the EU and I agree, it's unthinkable that some company would sponsor a political party. That's like paying to pass a bill to make your company life easier and stifle the competition. That is OT but also to me it seems that you don't really have any choice who you will be ruled by. IMHO two political party system is just an illusion of choice. You've got only two parties, or am I wrong? Maybe I'm wrong I'm not well versed in how your politics works. Democrats and Republicans don't eat me alive by asking an honest question

The two-party system is definitely one of choice because they are polar-opposites on many social decisions (death-penalty, abortion, military deployment, taxes, guns, etc).

The only place where the two-party system gives us the illusion of choice is in terms of fiscal policy. Neither party is all that interested in being fiscally conservative and balancing the budget. Both parties are comfortable with continuing the status quo and spending other people's money like there is no tomorrow.

So we are economically bankrupt and we accept this, the only question we entertain ourselves with is that of being morally bankrupt (or not) in the meantime.

 

[Idontcare]

Defending bribery, defending intel regardless of their crimes, accusing AMD of bribery without proof and saying everyone in Asia is a dodgy money-grubber?

Who's keeping it classy idontcare?

You can do business in Asia without bribery btw, you just need to know the right people.

What is with all the strawmen?

You sure are doing what you can to make this personal. Don't like the message so you have to attack the messenger. Definitely not keeping it classy there dude.

 

[Lepton87]

The two-party system is definitely one of choice because they are polar-opposites on many social decisions (death-penalty, abortion, military deployment, taxes, guns, etc).

The only place where the two-party system gives us the illusion of choice is in terms of fiscal policy. Neither party is all that interested in being fiscally conservative and balancing the budget. Both parties are comfortable with continuing the status quo and spending other people's money like there is no tomorrow.

So we are economically bankrupt and we accept this, the only question we entertain ourselves with is that of being morally bankrupt (or not) in the meantime.

Still sounds like not a full choice, I can vote for a party with which I agree about all things, in two party system that seems impossible. Seems like your parties debate about unimportant social things like abortion, same sex marriage etc. and do the same when it comes to things that are really important. Would you not have preferred party system like there is in the EU where things like lobbying is illegal.

 

[monstercameron]

Still sounds like not a full choice, I can vote for a party with which I agree about all things, in two party system that seems impossible. Seems like your parties debate about unimportant social things like abortion, same sex marriage etc. and do the same when it comes to things that are really important. Would you not have preferred party system like there is in the EU where things like lobbying is illegal.

Too far from jaguar discussion...no one else has some insightful analysis?

 

[SiliconWars]

What is with all the strawmen?

You sure are doing what you can to make this personal. Don't like the message so you have to attack the messenger. Definitely not keeping it classy there dude.

Ok so you didn't defend bribery, defend intel, accuse AMD and Asian business? You sure got me fooled.

You also know that Intel bribed OEM's to *exclude* AMD, and that is the illegal part. Do you have any anecdotes on how this happens in your daily life too?