Anandtech Haswell review is up!

[Grooveriding]

No.
APUs also are power and die size constrained. No APU can reach performance levels of discrete GPUs like GK106 or GK104 unless the APUs increase die size and TDP considerably, too. As long as dGPUs have larger die size and TDP budgets, they will remain considerably faster.

The IGP is continuing to get better and approach low to mid range dgpu performance. That is really all it needs to do considering high end discreet cards account for a very, very small portion of discreet GPU sales. The overwhelming majority of dGPUs sold are in the range of $200 cards.

Given Intel's process advantage over nvidia and AMD I can see them laying the hammer down with their 14nm IGP on nvidia and AMD achieving, 'good enough' status for your average gamer who just wants to play WoW and whatever other current game at 30fps with settings on medium. At that point they'll be more than happy to just buy a CPU and forget about spending that additional $200 on a GPU. The PS4 / XB One are both using an APU that gives about 7850 level performance with enough CPU power to run a game and that will set the bar for years going forward on what 'good enough' is with game releases primarily focused on the console market then ported to PC.

I'd wager nvidia and AMD both are very nervous about Intel's progress with their IGP considering the superiority of their CPUs in tandem with their process advantage putting them in a position to release a CPU that does everything the majority of the dGPU gamer market needs.

In a few years the 3% of us or so that care about penultimate GPU performance will be relegated to paying $1000+ for our discreet cards while the majority is buying a $300 CPU off Intel and getting their CPU+GPU needs met.

 

[AtenRa]

In a few years TODAY, the 3% of us or so that care about penultimate GPU performance will be relegated to paying $1000+ (TITAN) for our discreet cards while the majority is buying a $140 APU off AMD and getting their CPU+GPU needs met.

Fixed that for you :biggrin:

 

[Kallogan]

Desktops will die anyway and next gen APUs will be powerfull enough to play everything at 768p or 900p on ur fancy low power ultrabook.

 

[R0H1T]

No.
APUs also are power and die size constrained. No APU can reach performance levels of discrete GPUs like GK106 or GK104 unless the APUs increase die size and TDP considerably, too. As long as dGPUs have larger die size and TDP budgets, they will remain considerably faster.

If AMD can get critical mass & more importantly significant performance by leveraging HSA then you can bet APU's will eat low/mid range dGPU's for lunch, the higher end will remain untouched till you put out a 300W TDP APU.

 

[Grooveriding]

Fixed that for you :biggrin:

Consider Titan a 'window into the future'. An aberration today and the norm tomorrow. A few years and nvidia will be charging $1500 for the big die because there are so few of us left and they'd rather sell it for $3000 to the pro market.

 

[ShintaiDK]

If AMD can get critical mass & more importantly significant performance by leveraging HSA then you can bet APU's will eat low/mid range dGPU's for lunch, the higher end will remain untouched till you put out a 300W TDP APU.

Whats AMDs marketshare now? 14% and dropping?

Critical mass? Not gonna happen.

 

[USER8000]

Has anyone seen a review of that i7-4770R yet? I'm very curious about how Iris will do with unleashed TDP- and how the CPU does, actually. I have a suspicion that a 3.2GHz clock speed combined with that massive L4 cache will beat the 4770K in some benchmarks. The mobile GT3e (47W part) already beats it in a handful:

NOTE: This benchmark is performing OpenCL rendering on the CPU, not on the integrated graphics.

I think the mobile version is already unleashed somewhat:

http://techreport.com/r.x/core-i7-4770k/power-idle.png

http://techreport.com/r.x/core-i7-4770k/power-peak.png

http://techreport.com/r.x/core-i7-4770k/power-total-energy.png

http://techreport.com/r.x/core-i7-4770k/power-task-energy.png

The Core i7 4950HQ already turbos upto 3.4GHZ on 4 cores,and in the Anandtech test,Turbo was allowed to go to an equivalent 69W TDP. Power consumption appears higher than the Core i7 4770K,despite the Intel test system used,probably being more efficient.

 

[R0H1T]

Whats AMDs marketshare now? 14% and dropping?

So what !
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=35078243&postcount=1

Critical mass? Not gonna happen.

Didn't you say something similar about OpenCL

Stop painting the same doomsday scenario over & over again !

 

[notty22]

I think Intel will eventually launch its own set-top entertainment/tv/media box, which is something they have tried, that is also a gaming machine. Some evolution of the gt3e, with a 100+ watt envelope.
The Intel Dream Machine™

 

[USER8000]

I think Intel will eventually launch its own set-top entertainment/tv/media box, which is something they have tried, that is also a gaming machine. Some evolution of the gt3e, with a 100+ watt envelope.
The Intel Dream Machine™

Not with a GPU consistently under the speed of a GT650M at higher resolutions which itself is slower than a desktop GTX650 or HD7750,especially with the prices which are being charged for the parts. Even the GT650 and HD7750 stuggle,and Nvidia and AMD will be releases faster refreshes in the next few months anyway.

The GT3e 4C chips are around 350MM2 in size, including expensive eDRAM which itself is made on the more expensive lower power variant of the current Intel 22NM process. Intel wants to maintain its margins,not crater them.

Plus,the desktop entertainment/TV/media/gaming boxes already exist. They are called the PS4 and XBox One,and both Sony and MS are dumping billions into the projects.

 

[NTMBK]

Plus,the desktop entertainment/TV/media/gaming boxes already exist. They are called the PS4 and XBox One.

Which use big fat x86 APUs. Tell me again why an Intel equivalent is such a crazy idea?

 

[USER8000]

Which use big fat x86 APUs. Tell me again why an Intel equivalent is such a crazy idea?

Not with a GPU consistently under the speed of a GT650M at higher resolutions which itself is slower than a desktop GTX650 or HD7750,especially with the prices which are being charged for the parts. Even the GT650 and HD7750 stuggle,and Nvidia and AMD will be releases faster refreshes in the next few months anyway.

The GT3e 4C chips are around 350MM2 in size, including expensive eDRAM which itself is made on the more expensive lower power variant of the current Intel 22NM process. Intel wants to maintain its margins,not crater them.

Plus,the desktop entertainment/TV/media/gaming boxes already exist. They are called the PS4 and XBox One,and both Sony and MS are dumping billions into the projects.

There you go. The XBox One and PS4 are already developed and soon to be released and they have better performance,NOW.

At $500+ for the current GT3e parts,and Intel wanting to maintain decent margins,why would they want to be in that business,especially when the hardware already is subsidised or is made at tiny margins?? Even,Nvidia was complaining about them too. MS and Sony make most of the money on games and MS has deeper pockets than Intel.

They have $65 billion+ in cash,whereas Intel has it mostly tied up in fabs,etc. MS has already spent $1 billion in investing in XBox One exclusives. They have more cash to burn and they have the most important advantage - they are a software company. Software will make or break a console as much as hardware. Ask Atari or Sega.

Plus,still it does not change the fact that a 160MM2+ Intel IGP* with high bandwidth eDRAM is slower than smaller parts made by both Nvidia and AMD which are already a year old and will be replaced with parts which are faster.

Intel are starting from a lower performance point anyway,so their performance improvements look decent,but as time progresses they will hit the same issues everyone else does.

People also think that Nvidia and AMD won't move forward too. Just as Intel gets better,so will the others. But,no doom and gloom to the others and they will just give in so they can all get their unemployment slips,right?? Meh.

So,we will need to agree to disagree,otherwise the thread will probably get derailed.




*as estimated by Anandtech.

 

[Kallogan]

PS4 and Xbox 1 exist but there is no Intel stickers on them. They will certainly evolve their NUCs into Nukes.

 

[R0H1T]

Which use big fat x86 APUs. Tell me again why an Intel equivalent is such a crazy idea?

Starting from the top ~

1) Price, crazy expensive for anything with an eDRAM & the Intel premium of course

2) Low power, if they can fit such a thing into single digit TDP or SDP then we'll talk

3) GPU, AMD can still beat them with GCN & a media consumption box hardly has any use for the 200% CPU advantage

4) Size, GT3e based parts have a massive die so fitting such a thing onto a smaller die will be a challenge & if the market is not big enough Intel will not do it

Just to name a few

 

[mrmt]

4) Size, GT3e based parts have a massive die so fitting such a thing onto a smaller die will be a challenge & if the market is not big enough Intel will not do it

Haswell isn't supposed to bring those features to the masses, it is supposed to launch the features on the market. Broadwell with 14nm will.

 

[R0H1T]

Haswell isn't supposed to bring those features to the masses, it is supposed to launch the features on the market. Broadwell with 14nm will.

But can they fit an eDRAM based part onto something the size of a regular GT2 chip, even with broadwell, can they shrink the eDRAM that much, serious question btw :\

 

[USER8000]

Isn't Broadwell late 2014 or early 2015? I suppose DDR4 might be out by then,which should help a bit.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Isn't Broadwell late 2014 or early 2015? I suppose DDR4 might be out by then,which should help a bit.

Intel says Broadwell production starts in Q4 2013 in Fab42 and D1X M1. And they expect 450mm wafer equipment in 2015.

 

[USER8000]

Intel says Broadwell production starts in Q4 2013 in Fab42 and D1X M1/M2. And they expect 450mm wafer equipment in 2015.

Ahh,it was the desktop roadmap I was thinking about then:

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com...-Followed-by-Skylake-in-2015-2.jpg?1366453162

So,going by prior history,around the end of Q1 2014,for Broadwell laptops I suspect.

 

[NTMBK]

Starting from the top ~

1) Price, crazy expensive for anything with an eDRAM & the Intel premium of course

Yeah, this is the biggest single factor that would prevent it.

2) Low power, if they can fit such a thing into single digit TDP or SDP then we'll talk

Why single digit TDP? I was talking about XBone and PS4, which have a TDP an order of magnitude larger.

3) GPU, AMD can still beat them with GCN & a media consumption box hardly has any use for the 200% CPU advantage

The 47W GT3e mobile part beats the 100W A10-5800k quite significantly, and the 65W desktop part will only widen that. AMD's graphics performance crown is gone (although clearly not performance/$).

4) Size, GT3e based parts have a massive die so fitting such a thing onto a smaller die will be a challenge & if the market is not big enough Intel will not do it

Size as such doesn't strike me as a big deal- Intel has made massive dies before (see the Xeon Phi for reference). But yeah, whether the market is there to support it will decide a lot.

 

[NTMBK]

At $500+ for the current GT3e parts,and Intel wanting to maintain decent margins,why would they want to be in that business,especially when the hardware already is subsidised or is made at tiny margins?? MS and Sony make most of the money on games and MS has deeper pockets than Intel.

I think you misunderstood me- I wasn't talking about a traditional console model, as such, but rather a market for console-sized PCs. The so called "Steambox" concept, basically. If that market ever takes off, you can bet Intel will be in there big time.

They have $65 billion+ in cash,whereas Intel has it mostly tied up in fabs,etc. MS has already spent $1 billion in investing in XBox One exclusives. They have more cash to burn and they have the most important advantage - they are a software company. Software will make or break a console as much as hardware. Ask Atari or Sega.

I think the entire Steam back catalog has that covered.

Plus,still it does not change the fact that a 160MM2+ Intel IGP* with high bandwidth eDRAM is slower than smaller parts made by both Nvidia and AMD which are already a year old and will be replaced with parts which are faster.

The AMD equivalent is Trinity, which spends ~120mm2 on IGP (and has a total TDP of 100W), and loses to Haswell GT3e. Unless you were referring to discrete, in which case NVidia's 650m only just beats GT3e and consumes 650W in the process. It is smaller, yes, at ~120mm2 again, but then in you are looking at die size you have to consider the extra memory chips which you also need for a dGPU.

People also think that Nvidia and AMD won't move forward too. Just as Intel gets better,so will the others. But,no doom and gloom to the others and they will just give in so they can all get their unemployment slips,right?? Meh.

Yes, AMD and Nvidia are also improving, but at a much slower rate than Intel.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Ahh,it was the desktop roadmap I was thinking about then:

http://i1-news.softpedia-static.com...-Followed-by-Skylake-in-2015-2.jpg?1366453162

So,going by prior history,around the end of Q1 2014,for Broadwell laptops I suspect.

Either Q1 or Q2. Inventory needs to be build up and wafers needs to run through the fabs (~12 weeks).

 

[USER8000]

I think you misunderstood me- I wasn't talking about a traditional console model, as such, but rather a market for console-sized PCs. The so called "Steambox" concept, basically. If that market ever takes off, you can bet Intel will be in there big time.


I think the entire Steam back catalog has that covered.

Except again,a discrete card will be faster and cheaper. So ultimately its a moot point especially since Intel won't plonk GT3e discrete graphics on a £100 CPU,they will do it on a £170+ one which by that point is useless. You can get a cheaper CPU and discrete card which still will be faster.

I know loads of people who have DIY "Steam Boxes" in media chassis. Cards like the HD7770,GTX650TI,HD7850 and GTX660 are not a problem in those case and even those can struggle with some newer games. Unlike consoles,where devs try to get the most out of the hardware(plus certain overhads are lower) you do need to have more brute force in the first place with a PC.

At most it will still be entry level gaming on the desktop for a while. We are also making the assumption that AMD or Nvidia won't have any big performance jumps in the next few years too.

Moreover,once the IGP becomes too slow,it will make more sense to plonk in a faster discrete card,unless as rumoured Intel starts removing this ability. So,basically that means replacing the whole CPU and motherboard every two years when the next big IGP performance improvement happens??
Why bother? A PS4 or XBoxOne will last people years.

Its going to get worse with higher resolution TVs even if you take scaling into consideration.

The only real chance Intel has is if someone builds an "Intel console" but that means you need someone to dump money into to have loads of games optimised for it,not just one or two tech demos.

However,then you are competing directly with MS and Sony.

The AMD equivalent is Trinity, which spends ~120mm2 on IGP (and has a total TDP of 100W), and loses to Haswell GT3e. Unless you were referring to discrete, in which case NVidia's 650m only just beats GT3e and consumes 650W in the process. It is smaller, yes, at ~120mm2 again, but then in you are looking at die size you have to consider the extra memory chips which you also need for a dGPU.

I was talking about discrete cards,and the eDRAM is an additional 84MM2 ATM and still as you ramp up the settings the GT650M is faster overall in most games by a decent margin:

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55280.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55282.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55284.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55286.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55288.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55291.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55297.png
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/graph6993/55291.png

The resolution is not that high either.

The GT650M is a TDP limited part too at 45W and is already being replaced. So what about all the other parts,then??

Games don't stand still either,so yes IGPs will improve but so will discrete cards and they have far less limitations on power consumption and TDP.

Even if Intel assigns a 200W TDP to its desktop super-APU it will still hit the same issues,eventually what AMD and Nvidia have.

Yes, AMD and Nvidia are also improving, but at a much slower rate than Intel.

Again,Intel is starting from a lower base level,so they will look better.

The thing is though for a SteamBox,TDP is not going to as massively important as you think - performance will be. It looks more like a minimum PC spec,and if that is the case,it will be more a case of brute force for games as it will be running PC games,meaning the minimum spec will get higher and higher over a few years.

The decisions for Iris Pro are more to do with simpler packaging and power savings in a laptop environment than a desktop system to run games on.

Even then power consumption relative to desktop parts is still not as great as it could be:

http://techreport.com/r.x/core-i7-4770k/power-idle.png
http://techreport.com/r.x/core-i7-4770k/power-peak.png
http://techreport.com/r.x/core-i7-4770k/power-total-energy.png
http://techreport.com/r.x/core-i7-4770k/power-task-energy.png

It does indicate the L4 cache is not helping with power consumption, of the whole package and potentially pushing it upto desktop Haswell levels,with the IGP being inactive. So lower power consumption with the IGP active,but does not seem to help in situations where it is not really used.

Yes,it is not a laptop,but,the Intel test system uses a simulated battery,3 phase VRM,SODIMMs and a soldered on CPU,whereas the socket 1150 test system has a socket,high end motherboard with more phases which are less efficient,full sized DIMMs and a PSU way out of its optimal efficiency range with an IGP.

You are making the assumption that Intel will just double a few bits,here and there and have perfect performance scaling even if they allocate a higher TDP to special parts. However,as seen in the past with graphics chips and IGPs this has not necessarily been the case.

You can see this by looking at the HD4600 results and HD5200 results. The HD5200 does not even double the framerates of the former on average,even with a massive increase in bandwidth,twice the shaders and similar Turbo clockspeeds.

On top of this Intel wants to maintain decent margins too,which is needed for them to maintain funding on their process tech and to make sure they have a healthy share price,so if they make a big chip they certainly want a decent price for it.

Edit!!

Like I said before,I agree to disagree with you as our viewpoints are opposite. So I will leave it at that,as we will go around in circles otherwise.

 

[Chiropteran]

Whats AMDs marketshare now? 14% and dropping?

Critical mass? Not gonna happen.

Every mainstream console from ~Dec 2013 onward for the next 5 years? AMD's market share is going to be larger than Intel's, as far as gaming.

 

[boxleitnerb]

If AMD can get critical mass & more importantly significant performance by leveraging HSA then you can bet APU's will eat low/mid range dGPU's for lunch, the higher end will remain untouched till you put out a 300W TDP APU.

That remains to be seen. I'm not convinced it's that easy. HSA is good for many things like compute. But pure 3d graphics, I don't know.