AnandtechAMD Carrizo ExcavatorReview

[superstition]

Even the most ardent AMD supporter will be frustrated by their lack of spine and giving in to the OEMs stupid requests. Crippling Carrizo's powerful GPU with single channel memory is a disgusting thing to do. These OEMs don't give a damn about the user experience or perception of AMD's products. These OEMs are only bothered about their margins. They will do anything to improve that at the cost of destroying a product. Unless you are Intel who pays them a lot for marketing programs they are not going to put a lot of effort into great designs with a lot of configurability and good default configurations.

AMD has to take a decision to change the perception of their products by sporting their own decisions which are disruptive, well designed and aggressively marketed. I think for that they need a fresh start (or shall we say a reset point) from the architectural point. With Zen/Polaris based APUs they have that opportunity. I hope Raja is entrusted with the responsibility of getting some interesting designs out for the Zen/Polaris APUs with HBM2. I have respect for his achievements and leadership and think he can do a good job.

I suggested that AMD also create a certification badge that would go onto packaging for motherboards, to avoid the mess that they have with AM3+ in particular — with boards with no heatsinks on the VRMs, boards with low-grade MOSFETs, and so on.

Apparently The Stilt also raised this suggestion twice in the past. It seems that AMD has no interest in protecting its brand image.

Creating a Nintendo seal of quality type badge with three tiers (bronze — below Summit Ridge, silver — Summit Ridge with a minimum of 4 digital phases and a sink, and gold — Summit Ridge with digital true 8 CPU phase VRMs) would be very helpful since AM4 is going to be a single platform. It would help consumers know what the board is actually capable of since they're marketed with a combination of fraud (selling doubled 4 phase boards as 8 phases and doubled six phases as 12 phases) and misleading hype (like "military grade").

The Nintendo seal was a helpful thing for restoring consumer confidence after the video game crash. AMD needs to restore consumer confidence and also give buyers another reason to choose Zen over Intel.

 

[monkeydelmagico]

Just like the rest of the industry...if some Chinese company start to sell the H tier based laptop at similar cost than the U tier, I'll go to the chinese.

Which is exactly what AMD needs to do. They need to co-opt an off brand OEM to build some compelling and inexpensive products that showcase their true potential. Work with a brand like RCA that still has a bit of name recognition. Make a line of decent spec laptops. Sell the line exclusively through WalMart. Claw back some market share. Probably would not make alot of money but it would keep AMD in the game and pump up name recognition. Especially if they manage to create a few good bang-for-the-buck type hits.

The current OEM's have already made up their minds that the Carrizo offerings are going to be hobbled, not marketed, and eventually bargain binned. This review proves it. Time to switch gears AMD. It could already be too late.

 

[raghu78]

It doesn't require extra R&D to use dual channel RAM.

that was a good one. OEMs are willing to cut off the AMD APU / platform's performance capabilities (by crippling with single channel memory) just to save a few bucks and add to their margins. AMD has to do a few things -
1. AMD needs to reestablish competitivness with Zen and Polaris. Keep up the pace of improvement and not fall far behind Intel / Nvidia.
2. AMD should play to their GPU strengths and unlock the true power of Zen based APUs with HBM2.
3. They should definitely design notebooks with excellent perf, perf/watt and perf/sqmm. AMD needs to use the form factor advantages of HBM to push for unified system memory with HBM2 and eliminate DDR4.

Right now AMD has a few tough months till Polaris and Zen launch. But if they execute they can recover slowly and steadily.

 

[Dresdenboy]

One user at another forum asked, why Ian didn't simply add a DIMM to the DC capable notebooks. This might change the results like this:
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/compare/4619972?baseline=5160760

 

[superstition]

Sell the line exclusively through WalMart.

Newegg and Best Buy perhaps. I don't think WalMart shoppers are generally savvy enough to know the difference. They'll focus more on price tag than on price/performance.

What I don't understand is why people where I live shop at WalMart for groceries since they're a lot more expensive than they are at Kroger (if one is smart and buys sale items primarily). One example is Grainberry cereal. It was recently on a "Buy 6" sale at Kroger for $1.50 a box. Good luck finding prices like that at WalMart. Every item I needed was on sale except red cabbage. Even milk was only $1.99. My bill was $95 and I saved $37 without using a single coupon.

WalMart also has a reputation for giving its suppliers razor-thin margins.

 

[AtenRa]

One user at another forum asked, why Ian didn't simply add a DIMM to the DC capable notebooks. This might change the results like this:
http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench3/compare/4619972?baseline=5160760

Because the Laptops used on the review are ONLY SINGLE CHANNEL ??

 

[krumme]

No proposal in the article or here is realistic or practical.
Its imo a brilliant product. Its the absolutely only way to move solid quantity of old 28nm with a crappy arch in this market. As amd is forced to do because of the wsa. Its a requirement. Not an option. Fixed targets that need to be met.

That it can be done at all is a testament to the right business decisions. Its spot on. The only focused cpu product from amd in 20 years.

When zen arives we will probably see that usual return to trying to do everything but one can hope its different.

 

[superstition]

No proposal in the article or here is realistic or practical.

The seal of quality proposal is plenty realistic. The NES single-handedly resurrected the console market in the US and there is no evidence that suggests that the seal was not helpful for Nintendo's goal of reassuring the market.

Both of the video game crashes were highly related to a glut of low-quality games. There were also too many consoles, which didn't help things, but low-grade games were a problem. Nintendo's seal and its evaluation program was designed to control what games were available. This was a conflict of interest to some degree, of course, since Nintendo itself sold games. But, in the case of AMD there is no conflict since it does not make and sell motherboards.

When a consumer buys a processor and pairs it with a board that has deceptively low-grade power delivery that generally hurts the processor maker more than it hurts the motherboard maker.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Because the Laptops used on the review are ONLY SINGLE CHANNEL ??

I know the argument about the Lenovo, but why was such a laptop not included then? Both HPs are dual channel capable, BTW. On HP's page I could customize a 17z with Carrizo and add another DIMM right there. The Elitebook couln't be customized. One could also say, that's AMD's fault to provide the laptops in these configurations.

http://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-HP-EliteBook-745-G3-Notebook.157955.0.html did that test (search for "Dual-channel" on the page). Gaming benchmarks get significant boosts (Bioshock Infinite at "hoch"="high": +66%) .

 

[monstercameron]

Don't have much to add but as someone crazy enough to own 2 carrizo notebooks, the biggest problem for me by far Is the throttling. Do anything intensive and they both throttle.


I must say carrizo was such a bad release for that, it lead to me not updating my blog as often. Can't wait for Zen...sigh.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Don't have much to add but as someone crazy enough to own 2 carrizo notebooks, the biggest problem for me by far Is the throttling. Do anything intensive and they both throttle.


I must say carrizo was such a bad release for that, it lead to me not updating my blog as often. Can't wait for Zen...sigh.

Its a bit like the Larry syndrome, why do you keep buying it instead of something proper to begin with?

 

[AtenRa]

I know the argument about the Lenovo, but why was such a laptop not included then? Both HPs are dual channel capable, BTW. On HP's page I could customize a 17z with Carrizo and add another DIMM right there. The Elitebook couln't be customized. One could also say, that's AMD's fault to provide the laptops in these configurations.

http://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-HP-EliteBook-745-G3-Notebook.157955.0.html did that test (search for "Dual-channel" on the page). Gaming benchmarks get significant boosts (Bioshock Infinite at "hoch"="high": +66%) .

Ahh yes the 17z is dual channel capable, they should had install a second memory dimm and test again. But that would make the 8700p 15W TDP found on th 17z being faster than the 35W TDP 8800P with single memory.
This review should become a case study for marketing 101, how to screw up your own products.

 

[krumme]

The seal of quality proposal is plenty realistic. The NES single-handedly resurrected the console market in the US and there is no evidence that suggests that the seal was not helpful for Nintendo's goal of reassuring the market.

Both of the video game crashes were highly related to a glut of low-quality games. There were also too many consoles, which didn't help things, but low-grade games were a problem. Nintendo's seal and its evaluation program was designed to control what games were available. This was a conflict of interest to some degree, of course, since Nintendo itself sold games. But, in the case of AMD there is no conflict since it does not make and sell motherboards.

When a consumer buys a processor and pairs it with a board that has deceptively low-grade power delivery that generally hurts the processor maker more than it hurts the motherboard maker.

The situation is imo not comparable.

As i wrote in prior comment its about risk profile.

You have 28nm capacity standing that needs to be used. The cost is there not matter if it sells or not. If you try to build a quality solution and brand it both takes time and is a risk. Especially if the hardware you have at hand is just plain worse than the (only monopoly) competitor.

If you try to build and go for a segment where Intel is strong (eg. 15w ultrabooks) you just get killed. If not by perf. then by pure $. Intel would, never, ever let amd into that profitable market, especially when the product is in many way inferior (take eg. battery life because of more leaking process and unfit arch) If the product had come 1 year ago perhaps requirement for dual channel, ssd whatever, could have worked, but it would have been a stretch.

I dont know how zen profile is. But if its kind of mm2 small and comparable integer strong there could be a case to build a notebook like market for it.

You dont built a brand without a product as foundation. Its not a perfume or some plastic/glass jewelry. Secondly AMD dont have the cash, competences and culture to build such a brand and quality seal. And never had.

 

[MrTeal]

I know the argument about the Lenovo, but why was such a laptop not included then? Both HPs are dual channel capable, BTW. On HP's page I could customize a 17z with Carrizo and add another DIMM right there. The Elitebook couln't be customized. One could also say, that's AMD's fault to provide the laptops in these configurations.

http://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-HP-EliteBook-745-G3-Notebook.157955.0.html did that test (search for "Dual-channel" on the page). Gaming benchmarks get significant boosts (Bioshock Infinite at "hoch"="high": +66%) .

Blame AMD.

We had four Carrizo devices on hand to test for a week, along with a single Kaveri system. These devices were sourced by AMD, and I put in requests for a variety of price points, hardware configurations and styles, along with some specific testing equipment to which we don’t have access.

 

[SPBHM]

the whole single channel thing is so stupid, AMD should require those things to be equipped with dual channel if they are going to use the IGP.
or maybe they should at least require different branding for the single channel models like "Radeon LE" or something.

 

[DeathReborn]

Was Carrizo-L AMD's design choice or something the OEM's wanted and AMD provided?

 

[The Stilt]

Was Carrizo-L AMD's design choice or something the OEM's wanted and AMD provided?

"Carrizo-L" is Mullins, it is not a Bulldozer design.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Ahh yes the 17z is dual channel capable, they should had install a second memory dimm and test again. But that would make the 8700p 15W TDP found on th 17z being faster than the 35W TDP 8800P with single memory.
This review should become a case study for marketing 101, how to screw up your own products.

And the 745 g3 would also benefit (like on Notebookcheck).

The 35W variant needs 20W more to give roughly 20-30% more performance. But as the Lenovo has fast discrete graphics (compared to the IGP), the single channel mode is probably not so much a problem there.

 

[Dresdenboy]

Blame AMD.

I did.

But now I also noticed this thanks to your quote:

We had four Carrizo devices on hand to test for a week, along with a single Kaveri system. These devices were sourced by AMD, and I put in requests for a variety of price points, hardware configurations and styles, along with some specific testing equipment to which we don’t have access.

 

[sm625]

The HP Probook I have, which must be fast and reliable, has a freaking Intel Core i5 5200U processor! Is so slow that even when I am doing some work at home (tracing some codes), it takes up to 1.5X more time compared to my sis laptop which have a Core i3 380M!

I gotta call shens on this one. The i5-5200U is simply faster in every conceivable way. Either you have a seriously slower HDD in the newer notebook, or you have parasitic processes running or something. But the raw cpu speed of the 5200U is so much greater than the 380M that even if it is throttling it should still put out better numbers.

 

[MrTeal]

I did.

But now I also noticed this thanks to your quote:

Yeah, though I would imagine that would be more high level along the lines of "One A12, an A10, an FX, one with a dGPU", etc. While it would make for a good story, I can't imagine Ian/AT requested all single channel laptops.

 

[AtenRa]

The person/s that put the Laptop collection and was/were responsible for the review should be fired. I mean this is the worst marketing disaster you could have, Carrizo is not wining a single benchmark vs Intel, not even the f...ing game, pathetic really. And then they wonder why consumers hold AMD products on such a high esteem

 

[sm625]

In the article it was stated that some notebooks would still run in single channel mode even with 2 DIMMs installed. I can see why this would be true if they wanted the same board to also support Carrizo-L. Can you see why a DIMM slot wouldnt work with Carrizo-L if it was wired to the 2nd channel of big Carrizo? AMD should have known this would happen.

 

[MrTeal]

I gotta call shens on this one. The i5-5200U is simply faster in every conceivable way. Either you have a seriously slower HDD in the newer notebook, or you have parasitic processes running or something. But the raw cpu speed of the 5200U is so much greater than the 380M that even if it is throttling it should still put out better numbers.

I would assume shens is automatically applied to all of DZ's statements, and they're later checked to see if one of two of the shots did accidentally hit the broad side of the barn.

Given that "tracing some codes" is likely single threaded, even background processes seems suspect unless they were hogging 100% of the CPU cycles.

 

[rainy]

I was curious why majority of laptops with Carrizo is equipped with just single stick of memory - finally there's answer.
Clearly decision to make Carrizo a pin compatible with Carrizo-L was a poor one - lack of anticipation is obvious in that case.

Btw, we will see the same story with upcoming Bristol Ridge (mobile parts) too?