And Android takes down RIM (US marketshare)

[runawayprisoner]

Yeah it does. It shows that RIM is still a massive force in the market with only one peer, Apple. To say RIM has been 'taken down' is pushing the envelope of reality. My post restores reality.

Indeed. It's like saying the entire world together makes Bill Gates look poor.

But he's still a millionaire.

 

[gsaldivar]

Yeah it does. It shows that RIM is still a massive force in the market

But Pliable didn't say that RIM wasn't... at least not in what you quoted:

RIM lost more than 2x as much as the others combined

Yes, RIM is still a massive force in the market. But your chart conveniently omits the fact that RIM is losing market share over time, and losing it at a faster rate than any other smartphone manufacturer, and that is what this thread is about.

 

[DivideBYZero]

But Pliable didn't say that RIM wasn't... at least not in what you quoted:



Yes, RIM is still a massive force in the market. But your chart conveniently omits the fact that RIM is losing market share over time, and losing it at a faster rate than any other smartphone manufacturer, and that is what this thread is about.

That's the current statistic according to this company, yes. Not all analysis comes up with the same numbers, so what's the truth? You decry it as Gospel as it suits your views. I cite other facts that show you another view and you cry that that isn't what the thread is about. Well it is, actually, as it shows market penetration, not month by month share, which is massively variable. It is more representative, but it doesn't fuel your belly with quite so much fire.

 

[Castiel]

If only RIM could make a phone as great as the Droid X/IP4 combined

 

[gsaldivar]

Not all analysis comes up with the same numbers, so what's the truth? You decry it as Gospel as it suits your views. I cite other facts that show you another view and you cry that that isn't what the thread is about.

You're completely missing the point. Let's take it step by step:

Both charts are correct, allowing for a bit of variance.

But yours only shows half of the information of Pliablemoose's. Basically, take one column of Pliable's chart, and delete the rest. Then add some pretty colors and tons of whitespace. That's your chart.

RIM's performance looks great if you practice selective memory loss and only look at a single time period. Your points are that RIM is still a market force, the overall smartphone market is still expanding, and that all phones in single bucket (RIM) are a greater than individual manufacturer's buckets (Moto, HTC, etc)...

I agree with all of that.

But, once again, none of that changes the fact that RIM is consistently losing market share. There isn't a "massively variable" explanation for that... it's an unfortunate fact.

Notice I said unfortunate - as in regret. The opposite of a celebratory event. Yes, it would be better for everyone if they weren't losing market share. Competition breeds innovation and keeps prices down for everyone.

 

[Pliablemoose]

You're completely missing the point. Let's take it step by step:

See, that's the oddest thing, DBZ is a sharp guy, high IQ etc, he knows his chart only gives 1/2 the picture, and deeko is a sharp guy as well, they just don't like to admit that RIM is likely in deep crap, and it isn't going to turn out well for them.

What will likely happen is that the hedge fund guys (read one of Cramer's books about investing where he talks about hedge funds, it's pretty amazing what these guys can pull off) are going to run up RIM's stock price usning RIM's basically sound business of selling a reasonable smartphone that has by all measures, a massive presence worldwide and make money up to the launch of the PlayBook, using options to leverage their investment $, then when the PlayBook comes out buggy, and it will, hell, it's a first gen product coming out in a sector that's dominated by one player, and soon to be filled with competition, and they'll short the stock options and make a ton of cash on the way down.

RIM is going to get played, typically they play Apple, but they're gotten so big and Apple investors are proving to be resilient to the manipulation because they know Apple will just crank out another quarter of massive earnings to blow away Wall Street. Because RIM is hyping the PlayBook, and playing the game rather poorly, they're susceptible to this kind of manipulation.

They should have kept the PlayBook under wraps a little better, explained that they were moving into the tablet market, and that they know there will be issues, but that they'll be in the sector for the long haul, pointing to their long and profitable presence in the market and how they've refined their phones to the point of perfection for what they are, and left it at that.

Think of the quiet but skilled athlete that doesn't talk smack, because he doesn't need to.

Hell, I think Jobs is a fool for the crap he says during roll-outs, but he keeps getting his ass saved because Apple produces compelling products and they sell like crazy. He's always been full of crap, but now that he's dying, people and the industry are just giving up and watching the show...

I hate to admit it, but Google does it about right, just the right amount of hype, and delivers when it's important... Now that Schmidt is out of the picture and been effectively muzzled.

 

[poofyhairguy]

they've refined their phones to the point of perfection for what they are

That is a very nice way of putting it.

Facts are facts- RIM is losing ground because here in 2011 they still don't have a phone with a iPhone 1 level experience, let alone iPhone 4, Droid X, etc. They are the Dell of the cell phone market- they survive because the corporate sector moves VERY slowly compared to the consumer market as a whole, and because in the consumer market they are the cheapest option (the "free" phone). That won't protect them forever though, as the drop in market share proves.

They need to jump 5 years this year, and the Playbook is their shot to prove it to us they can. If it flops, bye bye RIM. Maybe not next year or the year after, but the writing will be on the wall...

 

[DarkThinker]

How can anyone take this data seriously? Nokia is %0 of smartphone useage? Symbian OS is not even mentioned in the entire article? Are these guys just making up numbers?

 

[Pliablemoose]

That is a very nice way of putting it.

Facts are facts- RIM is losing ground because here in 2011 they still don't have a phone with a iPhone 1 level experience, let alone iPhone 4, Droid X, etc. They are the Dell of the cell phone market- they survive because the corporate sector moves VERY slowly compared to the consumer market as a whole, and because in the consumer market they are the cheapest option (the "free" phone). That won't protect them forever though, as the drop in market share proves.

They need to jump 5 years this year, and the Playbook is their shot to prove it to us they can. If it flops, bye bye RIM. Maybe not next year or the year after, but the writing will be on the wall...

RIM developed their phone OS from a flipping pager, in my book, that shows some damn creative, out of the box thinking, it's IMHO, amazing what they pulled off.

 

[BenSkywalker]

How can anyone take this data seriously? Nokia is %0 of smartphone useage? Symbian OS is not even mentioned in the entire article? Are these guys just making up numbers?

Was that tongue in cheek or did you not notice these are US numbers? I can't recall ever having seen anything from Nokia here outside of extremely low end dumb phones. They have absolutely no presence in the US smartphone market at all.

 

[MrX8503]

Calm down, Granny Smith, it wasn't an attack on your brand of choice, it was simply used as exposition of my point.

I don't understand your point. The OP titled the thread the way he did because RIM lost the most marketshare, regardless of what marketshare it has left.

RIM performed the worst, the thread title reflects that, thats all.

 

[zerocool84]

I don't understand your point. The OP titled the thread the way he did because RIM lost the most marketshare, regardless of what marketshare it has left.

RIM performed the worst, the thread title reflects that, thats all.

Maybe he has RIM stock.

 

[DarkThinker]

Was that tongue in cheek or did you not notice these are US numbers? I can't recall ever having seen anything from Nokia here outside of extremely low end dumb phones. They have absolutely no presence in the US smartphone market at all.

Just a quick look at T-mobile's site right now and I see two Nokia smartphones: Nokia 5230 Nuron and Nokia E73 Mode (A variant of the E72). And that's just T-mobile without counting the unlocked smartphones Nokia sells in the US (E71, N97, N8....etc)

I have had a 6800, an E61 and now an E71. AT&T carried the E61 (as an E62) and the E71 (as an E71x) and so many more examples exist.

You need to educate yourself about this market before making such bold claims.

 

[gsaldivar]

Symbian OS is not even mentioned in the entire article? Are these guys just making up numbers?

That's probably because the majority of Symbian phones barely qualify as smartphones to begin with. You can't even talk about Symbian OS market share without using the word "worldwide".

Frankly, I would be surprised if the entire US market share of that platform exceeds half of Palm/HP's tiny slice at this point...

 

[poofyhairguy]

RIM developed their phone OS from a flipping pager, in my book, that shows some damn creative, out of the box thinking, it's IMHO, amazing what they pulled off.

Hey, I hope the Playbook rocks. The tablet market needs some fresh ideas at this point to help it mature.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Just a quick look at T-mobile's site right now and I see two Nokia smartphones: Nokia 5230 Nuron and Nokia E73 Mode (A variant of the E72).

I've seen them in TMo stores, I've never seen anyone who owned one and honestly I always thought they were dumb phones... looking them over I honestly don't see why they aren't.

 

[lupi]

got the wife a nuron as I was able to pick one up for $100 without a contract. it's not as good as the optimus the father in law just grabbed but it's way above dumbphone level.

as far as the thread, the title should be android takes down everyone as no one other than they got an increase in market share.

 

[Deeko]

See, that's the oddest thing, DBZ is a sharp guy, high IQ etc, he knows his chart only gives 1/2 the picture, and deeko is a sharp guy as well, they just don't like to admit that RIM is likely in deep crap, and it isn't going to turn out well for them.

RIM is still doing well enough right now. They're selling more phones than they ever have before. Their 2011 lineup is a considerable improvement to their 2010 lineup. No, they aren't making massive, fast changes - but considering their positive cash flow, they can afford to do it slow (just like Microsoft can). They are far from Palm territory.

Do they have a lot of work to do to turn things around and become more competitive? Sure, I never said otherwise. My point that I've reiterated is that things are not as grim as the doom-and-gloom types want to paint it, and that so many people on here have curious emotional biases against RIM, which further skews judgments.

This market can change very quickly. Just look at Android's rapid ascent. The fact that RIM has lasted so long in the new market is impressive. The old players have not fared nearly as well. Look at where Palm ended up, and Windows Mobile 6x didn't exactly stay competitive. While the Torch was ultimately a disappointment, it was certainly a step in the right direction - and their 2011 lineup as another step.

This board is full of fanboys that have Highlander-esque attitudes...There can be only one!!! I've long disagreed, this is a very big market and people have drastically different wants and needs. There is plenty of room for iOS, Android, WP7, and RIM...hell, maybe even WebOS if HP gets their act together.

 

[DarkThinker]

I've seen them in TMo stores, I've never seen anyone who owned one and honestly I always thought they were dumb phones... looking them over I honestly don't see why they aren't.

Oh I see, you don't think Nokia smartphones are smartphones so they must not be. You have never seen someone using a Nokia so no one in the US does.

Got it!

 

[runawayprisoner]

I think you need to calm down and start looking at the top of the chart, which says "Top Smartphone Platforms".

If you have to ask me, I wouldn't rule out Symbian, but calling it one of the "top smartphone platforms" in this day is a bit much. It has presence, but I suspect not as much as those platforms listed on the chart.

 

[v8envy]

I'm with Ben. If we consider Symbian a smartphone OS then we must also consider BREW. I mean, my LG Tumor Ouch can load (j2me) apps, it has a 3+ inch touch screen and a slide out keyboard. I can play games, watch youtube, surf the web and run a GPS Must be a smartphone OS, right? But if so, that also makes the Motor RAZR a smart phone since it runs the same OS -- definitely not the case.

At some point you have to make an arbitrary division between modern, powerful, polished and well-supported by application developers OSes (iOS, Android) running on high end devices users recognize as a desirable phone in 2011 and pre-iPhone relics. Blackberry, WebOS and WinMo got the benefit of the doubt for the purposes of this comparison (probably because they run on very similar hardware to android handsets).

Symbian use in the US is likely small enough not to even register on that chart.

Like Ben, I've *never EVER* seen anyone use a high end nokia phone. Informal sampling of hundreds. At the moment my personal, anecdotal experience backs up that chart -- two years ago it was all blackberry with a few iphones, but today it's a fairly even split iphone to blackberry to android. My informal method doesn't lend itself to drawing valid, correct conclusions to growth and shrinkage of market share. However, all the *NEW* devices I see people proudly showing off are Android and iOS, hardly anyone is excited about being issued a corporate Blackberry.

 

[alent1234]

Oh I see, you don't think Nokia smartphones are smartphones so they must not be. You have never seen someone using a Nokia so no one in the US does.

Got it!

back in 2000 all the chicks were buying nokia phones because they weren't flip and you could see who was calling you so they could avoid calls. smartphones, nokia hasn't been so lucky

 

[ultimatebob]

How can anyone take this data seriously? Nokia is %0 of smartphone useage? Symbian OS is not even mentioned in the entire article? Are these guys just making up numbers?

Not to mention... where in the hell is HTC? They're a major smartphone player now.

 

[mammador]

It's on an OS basis. This to me is misleading since Android is on a number of phones, and iOS is only on Apple. On a firm/company basis, Apple probably has the lead, followed by RIM, HTC and Samsung.