And here come the taxes - Obamacare Fees

[Sho'Nuff]

Threads like this always remind me of the onion article titled something to the effect of "local man is fervent defender of what he thinks the Constitution says".

If I came off that way it was not my intention.

While I do feel that much of what they federal government has become is predicated on improper constitutional interpretation, my point in this thread is to complain about yet another thinly veiled wealth transfer. I already take home only 58% of my gross income. That means that 42% of what I make is shelled out in taxes or fees. I live in a state that does not have an income tax, so those taxes and fees are paid to the federal government, the most inefficient money managing entity in the history of the world.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Huh?

What do you think the Constitution says regarding the OP's concerns in this post?

 

[Matt1970]

"I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes." Just one more lie from Obama.

 

[fskimospy]

If I came off that way it was not my intention.

While I do feel that much of what they federal government has become is predicated on improper constitutional interpretation, my point in this thread is to complain about yet another thinly veiled wealth transfer. I already take home only 58% of my gross income. That means that 42% of what I make is shelled out in taxes or fees. I live in a state that does not have an income tax, so those taxes and fees are paid to the federal government, the most inefficient money managing entity in the history of the world.

Well wealth transfers through taxation are about as constitutional as it gets. Congress has the power to tax, and the power to spend on basically whatever it wants. Whether you think that's a good idea or not is one thing, but the law is pretty settled on this fact.

As for wealth transfers, they don't bother me. (And I am definitely well on the giving end of the income spectrum.) The percentage of income gains that have gone to the top few percent of earners has increased at a rate that far exceeds their increased contribution. I am fine with giving some of that back. Three years ago my girlfriend had am AGI of nearly half a million. She is one of the biggest advocates for higher taxes on high income earners I know.

 

[fskimospy]

What do you think the Constitution says regarding the OP's concerns in this post?

I think nothing in the constitution prohibits any of it.

 

[Matt1970]

Well wealth transfers through taxation are about as constitutional as it gets. Congress has the power to tax, and the power to spend on basically whatever it wants. Whether you think that's a good idea or not is one thing, but the law is pretty settled on this fact.

As for wealth transfers, they don't bother me. (And I am definitely well on the giving end of the income spectrum.) The percentage of income gains that have gone to the top few percent of earners has increased at a rate that far exceeds their increased contribution. I am fine with giving some of that back. Three years ago my girlfriend had am AGI of nearly half a million. She is one of the biggest advocates for higher taxes on high income earners I know.

If you and your girlfriend are so much for higher taxes, there is an option on your 1099 to pay more every year than your required taxes. Use it.

 

[fskimospy]

If you and your girlfriend are so much for higher taxes, there is an option on your 1099 to pay more every year than your required taxes. Use it.

We have discussed why this argument is stupid repeatedly. Taxation is a collective action problem.

 

[Matt1970]

We have discussed why this argument is stupid repeatedly. Taxation is a collective action problem.

Your statement is stupid. If you have more than the average folk, donate it. Lead by example. A little bit goes a long way. Or is it more like people are all for higher taxation as long as they aren't the ones who have to actually pay it?

 

[fskimospy]

Your statement is stupid. If you have more than the average folk, donate it. Lead by example. A little bit goes a long way. Or is it more like people are all for higher taxation as long as they aren't the ones who have to actually pay it?

What are you babbling about now? I am for higher taxation that I would also pay.

As I have used as an example many times, taxation, like war, is a collective action problem. If for example you think we should strike Iran's nuclear program by your logic you should just go run a one man commando mission over there to do it. Lead by example.

 

[Matt1970]

What are you babbling about now? I am for higher taxation that I would also pay.

As I have used as an example many times, taxation, like war, is a collective action problem. If for example you think we should strike Iran's nuclear program by your logic you should just go run a one man commando mission over there to do it. Lead by example.

Then pay it! Taxation is nothing like a war, and you are a fool to suggest it. By that logic my donations to Rescue Mission are worthless unless everyone donates the same amount.

 

[fskimospy]

Then pay it! Taxation is nothing like a war, and you are a fool to suggest it. By that logic my donations to Rescue Mission are worthless unless everyone donates the same amount.

Haha it is only nothing like war to you because it makes you confront how bad your argument is. Your donations to Rescue Mission would indeed be worthless all by themselves. They gain value as others contribute as well.

So let me know when you're ready to set off to Iran. A little bit goes a long way. If you would like, I can teach you to shoot before you go.

 

[Jhhnn]

The greed of the poor is every bit as bad as the greed of the rich.

Utterly false. Greed at the lower end is intended to enhance lifestyle, at the upper end it does no such thing. Billionaires driving their investments for better returns live no better or no worse on the basis of those returns. Their lifestyles are already saturated. At that level, it's about compulsive competitiveness & acquisition of power.

 

[Matt1970]

Haha it is only nothing like war to you because it makes you confront how bad your argument is. Your donations to Rescue Mission would indeed be worthless all by themselves. They gain value as others contribute as well.

So let me know when you're ready to set off to Iran. A little bit goes a long way. If you would like, I can teach you to shoot before you go.

Next time you pass a homeless guy, make sure you don't give him anything because unless everyone gives him something it won't help. When my friend back in high school needed a place to stay and we took him in, it didn't do him a bit of good because we didn't take everyone we knew?

You really need to check that logic.

 

[fskimospy]

Next time you pass a homeless guy, make sure you don't give him anything because unless everyone gives him something it won't help. When my friend back in high school needed a place to stay and we took him in, it didn't do him a bit of good because we didn't take everyone we knew?

You really need to check that logic.

This is actually a wonderful example, thank you! Empirical analysis of giving to homeless people shows that since the homeless lack vehicles for saving and frequently have drug and alcohol problems giving money directly to them does little to actually help them. Programs to provide the homeless with shelter, drug/alcohol/mental health treatment, etc, which are funded by (you guessed it!) tax dollars are far more effective per dollar spent.

ie: fighting homelessness requires collective action.

It says a lot where your examples are self defeating.

 

[Matt1970]

This is actually a wonderful example, thank you! Empirical analysis of giving to homeless people shows that since the homeless lack vehicles for saving and frequently have drug and alcohol problems giving money directly to them does little to actually help them. Programs to provide the homeless with shelter, drug/alcohol/mental health treatment, etc, which are funded by (you guessed it!) tax dollars are far more effective per dollar spent.

ie: fighting homelessness requires collective action.

It says a lot where your examples are self defeating.

No, by your logic unless everyone gets helped by everyone who can help and is 100% turned around and on the path to enlightenment, nothing should be done at all. Any effort that doesn't help everyone is a worthless effort. Give them a home, car, job and healthy savings account or give them nothing and let them starve. Nice!

 

[Jhhnn]

As I have used as an example many times, taxation, like war, is a collective action problem.

You might as well have said that in Navajo, because the people you're addressing can't understand it in any language. They are ideologically opposed to such understanding. Their indoctrination in Right-Think has been entirely successful.

 

[Jhhnn]

No, by your logic unless everyone gets helped by everyone who can help and is 100% turned around and on the path to enlightenment, nothing should be done at all. Any effort that doesn't help everyone is a worthless effort. Give them a home, car, job and healthy savings account or give them nothing and let them starve. Nice!

Absurdity of denial.

You claim that the best we can do is to act on our own, individually. Eskimospy claims we can do better acting together. History supports his POV. As first world residents, we all depend on higher levels of organization unobtainable using your headset.

The same principles used to build the Brooklyn Bridge & eradicate smallpox can be applied to other problems.

 

[destey]

As human beings we are all intrinsically tied together. This nation has been fortunate for those whose greatest virtues are greed, selfishness, and just general inhumanity. Those days are over, the United States has joined the world in understanding that you are your brother's keeper. There is nothing more certain that makes society than the cold hard percentage of tax. If you like renounce your citizenship and make a go of it in some obscure jungle.

LOL easy to say when its other people's money going to a 3rd party. How about you be your "brothers keeper" and help me out in this christmas season? I need a scuba tank setup, found one on craigslist for $50. I'm sure you make more money than me, so please put your money where your mouth is and help me out!

Oh wait, when the rubber meets the road all your utopian ideas fall apart, because you're selfish just like everyone else. Only thing is, you think you're not selfish because you vote for people to take money via force of govt and give it to a third party and call it compassion.

 

[fskimospy]

No, by your logic unless everyone gets helped by everyone who can help and is 100% turned around and on the path to enlightenment, nothing should be done at all. Any effort that doesn't help everyone is a worthless effort. Give them a home, car, job and healthy savings account or give them nothing and let them starve. Nice!

Nope, that's an attempt at a straw man. My argument is that national policy requires collective effort.

I'm on board with your logic though. Every little bit helps, which is why I need you to get over to Iran right now and start shooting things up.

 

[Matt1970]

Absurdity of denial.

You claim that the best we can do is to act on our own, individually. Eskimospy claims we can do better acting together. History supports his POV. As first world residents, we all depend on higher levels of organization unobtainable using your headset.

The same principles used to build the Brooklyn Bridge & eradicate smallpox can be applied to other problems.

Oh no, Eskimospy is not saying that. He is saying unless everyone contributes, he won't. Unless everyone helps there is no point in helping. At least that is how he feels when it comes to him giving his share of help.

 

[Matt1970]

Nope, that's an attempt at a straw man. My argument is that national policy requires collective effort.

I'm on board with your logic though. Every little bit helps, which is why I need you to get over to Iran right now and start shooting things up.

Collective effort of a progressive tax system right? Tax the shit out of the 1% but for me to give more, EVERYONE would need to give more.

 

[fskimospy]

Collective effort of a progressive tax system right? Tax the shit out of the 1% but for me to give more, EVERYONE would need to give more.

Still trying to straw man this, huh.

I'm not requiring everyone to give more, I'm requiring that tax contributions given by me be matched by an equivalent contribution by others in identical circumstances. That's how tax policy works.

Civics 101.

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh no, Eskimospy is not saying that. He is saying unless everyone contributes, he won't. Unless everyone helps there is no point in helping. At least that is how he feels when it comes to him giving his share of help.

That's a strawman, a mechanism of denial.

 

[Matt1970]

I gotta get out of here, the spin is too dizzying......

 

[fskimospy]

Oh so now you are fine with the current tax system?

/facepalm

I am okay with paying taxes on higher incomes, an increased tax rate that would affect me as well.