And here come the taxes - Obamacare Fees

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Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
That said, an argument could be made that anyone who has ever made any money whatsoever derived that income from the labor of others. So . . . . not sure what your point is.

The lack of self awareness is staggering.
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
Hahahahaha what the hell

Laugh if you want. Insurance is not a fundamental right. If you want to argue the counter point, the stage is all yours.

We are not talking about freedom. Or the broader concept of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." We are talking about insurance. Something that was create protect against the risk of losses posed by known or appreciable risks. By definition it is not something that everyone is entitled to. It has always been something that has been bought.

Also, I disagree with your equivocation of health care and health insurance. I know for a fact that they are not the same. I mentioned that my father has no health insurance, right? Yet he is able to obtain health care through a free health clinic run by a number of doctors in my town. They ask their patients to "pay what they can," even if that is "nothing." So there are options out there for folks to obtain basic medical care without insurance, and they are (or at least can be) affordable. Maybe there are not enough of those options. But they are there nonetheless.

Oh gosh a big out of context number! Did you know the Sun is 1,391,000 km wide? That seems like a big number! Surely that means it will destroy us all in its flame, since we're basing things solely on how big the numbers seem.

FYI the US debt is probably marginally larger relative to GDP than is ideal, and should absolutely be brought down in the long-term, but poses absolutely no threat to the United States in the short- or medium-terms, and is absolutely manageable. Cutting in the face of recession is a proven terrible strategy that caused the Great Depression, yet it's brought up every time because it fits ideological goals, not because it actually works. The 1990s would have benefited greatly from us paying down the debt with our surpluses, rather than huge tax cuts and throwing endless money into wars.

Dude if you do not think the fiscal deficit is one of the biggest threats to U.S. national security and sovereignty, I have nothing to say to you except "open your eyes." Eventually our creditors are going to want to get paid. And I'm betting that will happen sooner rather than later.

And where did I argue that we should be cutting in the face of recession? Precisely nowhere. What I am arguing for is fiscally responsible policy - something we haven't seen in this country for almost 40 years. Oh and protip - spending money we don't have in the face of recession is not a wise decision either.

Hahahaha, oh okay, it's just a joke post. No one could actually think the US government is or should be run like a business, despite their fundamental and enormous differences.

Here's another funny joke: Your family isn't a charity. It needs to be run like a business! If employees (children) aren't producing surplus value, they need to be fired immediately! If our family isn't making an annual profit to distribute to shareholders, our management could get fired, so downsizing is probably in order.

Both of those analogies fail to exactly the same degree.

So the government is my family? Oh happy day. We should be thrilled to have this hulking idiot big brother looking over our shoulder.

And yes, from an economic standpoint government should be run like a business or a non-profit, particularly because we live in a consumerist society. Laws and regulations should be passed because they make sense economically as well as socially. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that all social considerations should go out the window during lawmaking. Rather, I'm arguing that the benefits of a law need to be weighed against all of the costs, taking into account the fiscal position of the nation as a whole. It simply does not make sense to institute expensive social programs when our "leaders" can't even agree on a budget.

Congrats on being in an area where there's legal work to be done starting at age 13, and that you were hired to do it, and the money didn't have to be immediately spent on putting food in your family's mouths. Not everyone has that good fortune. But feel free to shit on them anyway, since surely your life circumstances are applicable to everyone else.

Who said I was doing legal work at 13? My first job was working as a house painter with my father, where I made a whopping $5 an hour. I then moved on to become a lifeguard and pool operator, where I made ~$6 an hour. Yet I still managed to save money. After high school I worked my way through college, where I earned a chemistry degree. After working as a bench chemist and contract manager for the government for a few years, I left to become a patent examiner. I then went to law school full time at night while working full time during the day.

FWIW, I have posted at other times that my parents were not exactly well off. We had a home and so were fortunate. But the memories of my parents fighting (and ultimately divorcing) over money (because they had none) are burned very clearly in my mind. And they taught me the value and power of saving money at a young age. As for starting my investments early, I have my aunt to thank for that as she was the one who introduced my to the power of compound interest. So yes, I know what it is like to be "poor." Do I have first hand experience of what it is like to be impoverished? Thankfully not and I suspect you do not either. I can appreciate what it is like, however.

In any event, I think my life history is particularly relevant to a lot of people in the U.S. Because it demonstrates that through hard work and careful planning, one can improve their situation dramatically in this country. I was not born with a silver spoon in hand. I just had parents that showed me the value of honest hard work and fiscal responsibility at a young age.

Regardless, we are not talking about taking food away from the poor and huddled masses. We are talking about health insurance. If someone is in the position of choosing to buy food or choosing to buy health insurance, which do you think they will buy? Yet Obamacare would penalize (er., tax) them for that decision. Please explain to me how that makes sense.

Because no one else has the resources, social position, taxing power, enforcement mechanism, and absolute faith and full credit of the United States government. Also, we know that businesses and non-profits don't perform these roles, because in real life history - not libertarian fantasy free market solves all problems theory land - they absolutely did not. Social Security was the reaction to generations of the vast majority of American citizens dying in poverty. A tiny minority do now. Did we just jump the gun, and the Free Market was going to fix the problem the following year?

So you are saying that there is no other alternative to those problems (poverty, etc.) than large government? Perhaps I am naive, but I have more faith in people than that. You and I would probably agree that the solutions to the problems you mentioned are in and of themselves a collective action problem. I.e., lots of people recognize the problem, but the solution requires lots of people to work together, which is hard (though not impossible) to accomplish. You would argue that government adequately addresses that problem by forcing people to work together. I would argue that it is possible with appropriate leadership to accomplish the same thing without government involvement. We would both probably agree that government is the "best" solution, provided that the solutions were implemented in a cost effective manner. Because if they are not, all the government is doing is substituting one (potentially more serious) problem for another.
 
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Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
The lack of self awareness is staggering.

So educate me. How do I, a patent attorney, derive my wealth from the labor of others less fortunate than myself?

Or are you saying that the lack of self awareness (exhibited by others) is staggering? Because I would agree with that.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Considering I worked 160 hour + weeks for ~5 years of my life, I would say that I earned it.

I am a patent attorney - so I'm not sure how it can be said that any of my income was expropriated from the labor of others. I do have an assistant who keeps my docket in order . . . but I wouldn't say my income is in any way derived from her efforts. Not to understate her importance, of course.

That said, an argument could be made that anyone who has ever made any money whatsoever derived that income from the labor of others. So . . . . not sure what your point is. Or if it is even relevant to the discussion.

As to my spending power - it is the same as everyone else who lives on the U.S. dollar, because spending power amounts to "what can one buy with a given amount of money." How much money one has is not relevant to that concept. If you are asking about how much of my wealth is attributed to lower wages of other people . . . I would say little to none. I work in a highly specialized field, and my income (apart from investment returns) is derived almost solely from my own labor.

Wait, you work as an attorney dealing with the US patent system and you don't see how your livelihood might come from a system that awards disproportionate benefits to the wealthy and established interests, ie: living off the labor of others?

One of my best friends is a patent attorney specializing in medical devices and he would laugh out loud at that idea.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Wait, you work as an attorney dealing with the US patent system and you don't see how your livelihood might come from a system that awards disproportionate benefits to the wealthy and established interests, ie: living off the labor of others?

One of my best friends is a patent attorney specializing in medical devices and he would laugh out loud at that idea.
One cannot actually patent "living off the labor of others". One can only patent products and procedures that people are free to adopt or not, except where government interferes of course. As radical as you find it, many of us don't agree that generally speaking, people benefiting from creating some product or service that others voluntarily adopt as making their lives better are being awarded "disproportionate benefits", despite what Mao's Little Red Book may say on the matter.

Of course, there are some people who get to live off the labor of others regardless of those others' desires. These are people who work for government, people whose lives are funded by government, and people whose patented works must be used by decree of government.
 

Veliko

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2011
3,597
127
106
So educate me. How do I, a patent attorney, derive my wealth from the labor of others less fortunate than myself?

There isn't a single person in society who hasn't derived their wealth from the labour of others, be they less fortunate or more fortunate than yourself, be it directly or indirectly.

How else do you think the roads you use every day or the schools that educated you came into existence?

The patent system wouldn't work without the publicly funded legal system required to enforce it.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
One cannot actually patent "living off the labor of others". One can only patent products and procedures that people are free to adopt or not, except where government interferes of course. As radical as you find it, many of us don't agree that generally speaking, people benefiting from creating some product or service that others voluntarily adopt as making their lives better are being awarded "disproportionate benefits", despite what Mao's Little Red Book may say on the matter.

LOL COMMIES AMIRITE?

To address your straw man: I am not against patents. The US patent system in its current form however massively advantages large institutional actors, which frequently abuse patents to close out industries and extract rents from small actors.

Extracting rents = living off the labor of others.

Great example? Smartphones. There will never be a new actor in the smartphone industry that is not some massive corporation simply due to the blizzard of patent litigation that would happen.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
LOL COMMIES AMIRITE?

To address your straw man: I am not against patents. The US patent system in its current form however massively advantages large institutional actors, which frequently abuse patents to close out industries and extract rents from small actors.

Extracting rents = living off the labor of others.

Great example? Smartphones. There will never be a new actor in the smartphone industry that is not some massive corporation simply due to the blizzard of patent litigation that would happen.
Riiight. You're not against patents, they just award "disproportionate benefits to the wealthy and established interests, ie: living off the labor of others."
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Riiight. You're not against patents, they just award "disproportionate benefits to the wealthy and established interests, ie: living off the labor of others."

I am pro-patent, but I think our current system of awarding and litigating patents heavily favors the wealthy and established interests.

How is this hard to understand?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
I just have to ask, did you have posters of Bundy and Dhamer on your walls growing up?

As you can see from above the right wing despises society. That the best place for their boot is on their grandparents neck. Such is the nature that we are dealing with here, so when something like ACA becomes law they are absolutely dumbfounded.

People like this douchebag are what makes me hate "liberals".
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Riiight. You're not against patents, they just award "disproportionate benefits to the wealthy and established interests, ie: living off the labor of others."

What's amusing is that "liberals" vehemently defend the concept of intellectual property. Monopolies are bad! Unless it's a monopoly on an idea, then they're cool with it.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
Look, let's cut through the BS political jargon and get to the basics. Free market healthcare would mean that a certain set of the population would not get access to health care unless someone else paid for them. That's the bottom line of the "for profit" approach. There's no guarantee that adequate charity will ever be available. I for one don't want to live in a country where someone dies because they couldn't afford basic health services, because they couldn't pay for it.

I've come up with a word for death by lack of health care. Insuricide
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I am pro-patent, but I think our current system of awarding and litigating patents heavily favors the wealthy and established interests.

How is this hard to understand?
Fair enough.

People like this douchebag are what makes me hate "liberals".
It is kind of bizarre. He's accusing the right wing of wanting jack boots on their grandparents' necks for opposing a law putting jack boots on all our necks.
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
Wait, you work as an attorney dealing with the US patent system and you don't see how your livelihood might come from a system that awards disproportionate benefits to the wealthy and established interests, ie: living off the labor of others?

One of my best friends is a patent attorney specializing in medical devices and he would laugh out loud at that idea.

I would be interested in talking to your friend, because no. I do not see how I benefit from the labor of others less fortunate than me any more than anyone else that works in a service industry.

FWIW, many of my clients are not "wealthy and established interests." And I too specialize in medical devices. Ask your friend if he feels the same way about his startup clients (if he has any).
 
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Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
There isn't a single person in society who hasn't derived their wealth from the labour of others, be they less fortunate or more fortunate than yourself, be it directly or indirectly.

Didn't I say that in a prior post (I.e., an argument could be made that everyone who has ever made money derived their income from the labor of someone else?)? I was confused by someone who rebutted that position and asked them to educate me. Oh wait! That someone was you! Thank you for agreeing with my prior point.

The patent system wouldn't work without the publicly funded legal system required to enforce it.

The USPTO is not publicly funded. Court fees for patent cases are quite large. Or so I am made to understand. I could be mistaken as I am not a patent litigator.
 
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Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
Wow! You went 5 years only sleeping 8 hours per week!

My apologies for the typo. Let me explain my schedule to you when I was in lawschool. Then you can decide.

Wake up at 6am.
Leave for work at 6:30AM
Arrive at work at 715AM
Work until 5PM and leave for law school
Attend class from 6-10PM (5 days a week)
Arrive home at 11PM
Read cases and do homework until 2AM
Sleep from 2AM-6AM
Repeat M-F

Saturday and Sundays I woke up at 7AM, and studied from ~8AM-6PM. At that point I handled whatever leftover work projects I had on my plate.

So regardless of the number of hours. I didn't sleep much. Maybe 35 hours a week. And I busted my ass.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
I would be interested in talking to your friend, because no. I do not see how I benefit from the labor of others any more than anyone else in a service industry might.

FWIW, many of my clients are not "wealthy and established interests." And I too specialize in medical devices. Ask your friend if he feels the same way about his startup clients (if he has any).

My friend is in house counsel so he only has one client, who is quite wealthy and quite well established, haha.

As for how you benefit from the labor of others, the US patent system in its current form allows large interests and NPEs to extract rents, which is basically the definition of benefiting from the labor of others. Due to the high costs associated with patent litigation those rents are only typically available to people with deep pockets.
 

Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
Wait, you work as an attorney dealing with the US patent system and you don't see how your livelihood might come from a system that awards disproportionate benefits to the wealthy and established interests, ie: living off the labor of others?

Last I checked, the U.S. patent system awards the same rights to IBM as it would to joe the plumber. Exclusive right to make, use, sell, offer for sale, import and export the claimed invention for 20 years from the date of filing.

Sure, large corporations can afford more patents than small. But they also put much more effort and money into R&D than a small company. Should the small guys get to use the big company's tech simply because they are small?

But I digress. This thread is not about the US patent system.
 
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Sho'Nuff

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2007
6,211
121
106
My friend is in house counsel so he only has one client, who is quite wealthy and quite well established, haha.

As for how you benefit from the labor of others, the US patent system in its current form allows large interests and NPEs to extract rents, which is basically the definition of benefiting from the labor of others. Due to the high costs associated with patent litigation those rents are only typically available to people with deep pockets.

Ask your friend the next time he feels like he works for a corporate slug - how do the patients that use his employer's inventions feel? And how might they feel if those inventions were not available? Sure, his employer makes medical devices to make money. But it just so happens that those devices also help patients. And without the patent system, a lot of those devices would never have come to fruition. Your friend may not want to admit it. But inside he knows it to be true.

As for the problem of NPE's, you are overgeneralizing and applying a problem that is really specific to one industry and using it to debunk the entire system. You see anything wrong with that?

I would generally disagree with your assertion that patent enforcement amounts to benefiting from the efforts of others. For one, it is possible to enforce a patent where the damage award is only an injunction against the patent infringer. The only benefit the patentee obtains there is preventing the infringer from doing something that it could not legally do anyway.
 
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Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
What's amusing is that "liberals" vehemently defend the concept of intellectual property. Monopolies are bad! Unless it's a monopoly on an idea, then they're cool with it.

What's even more amusing is they are vehemently against a corporation having a monopoly on one industry, but are just fine with government having a monopoly on every industry.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Ask your friend the next time he feels like he works for a corporate slug - how do the patients that use his employer's inventions feel? And how might they feel if those inventions were not available? Sure, his employer makes medical devices to make money. But it just so happens that those devices also help patients. And without the patent system, a lot of those devices would never have come to fruition. Your friend may not want to admit it. But inside he knows it to be true.

As for the problem of NPE's, you are overgeneralizing and applying a problem that is really specific to one industry and using it to debunk the entire system. You see anything wrong with that?

I'm not against patents at all, nor is my friend. I think they are wonderfully valuable. If you read my previous posts more closely you will see that I'm attacking the way the US system is currently set up, not patents themselves. My friend feels the same way, that our current system is badly broken.

My issue is that the prohibitive cost of patent litigation and the way it is being abused in certain fields harms innovation and makes it hard for small actors to get involved in business. I'm not overgeneralizing with my reference to NPE's, I'm just mentioning them as a symptom of the larger problem.
 
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