And... it's back: The ASSAULT weapons ban

[Genx87]

That's the problem, regarding a realistic mental health awareness.

It would require in addition to making notification by mental health professionals to authorities of people who would be dangerous around firearms.

It would also require closing loopholes in some states that allow people to purchase firearms at certain places without a background check. After all what good is requiring the notification about people with mental issues who would be potentially dangerous with firearms if those loopholes are not closed?

Lastly in addition to the above. More funding for mental health care would probably be needed as well.

Prior to the shooting in AZ. Funding for such treatment received cuts in that state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/us/21mental.html?_r=0

^this article includes some detail about that.

sure it's easy to target Democratic politicians because they do include people who have pushed for stricter gun control laws.

Since mental health issues are a point that needs to be addressed (you did bring it up after all) then a discussion must take place about how to implement better treatment for people who need it and better ways of keeping firearms out of people who need that treatment.

In that regard. Democratic politicians are far from the only politicians who are an obstacle to that goal.

I think that is all well and should be looked into. I think there are three components to this and you addressed two of them. Mental health awarness, gun control, and school security.

I targetted democrats in this instance because they are tossing out 2 of the three and instead focusing on their obsessive fascination with military looking semi automatic rifles.

And their focus on the 3rd topic is a swing and a miss from a historical perspective. And worse, it wouldnt have stopped the current tragedy.

 

[BoberFett]

Address the real argument.

US gun violence is 3x as high as other first world countries. I'm currently overseas and gun violence is 1/13 here what it is in the states.

Why do we need these guns? Worse, why do we want these guns?

I'll address the real argument when pretentious pricks stop using phrases like "any reasonable person" and "emotional attachment" in order to frame the debate to their liking so they can shut down any opposing argument before it's even made.

 

[blankslate]

I targetted democrats in this instance because they are tossing out 2 of the three and instead focusing on their obsessive fascination with military looking semi automatic rifles.

And their focus on the 3rd topic is a swing and a miss from a historical perspective. And it wouldnt have stopped the current tragedy.

Well, if you want to pin me down according to party. Even though I don't have a registered party I did vote more for democratic nominees than republican or other party candidates.

I think that the only real "gun control" law that would make some sense is a limit on magazine capacities.

For instance the shooter in AZ did have an extended magazine in his pistol and was tackled when he had to reload.

But in most cases it wouldn't seriously affect the amount of times a person could fire because it's fairly easy reload if you don't care about retrieving a spent magazine. Additionally how would a new law address the high capacity magazines already in possession by gun enthusiasts.

So yes Democratic politicians aren't focusing on real solutions without trying to address the mental health aspect of these shootings.

I brought up Republican politicians because they haven't brought it up either (so far as I know) and in the cost cutting mood they have been in most of the past decade they would be an obstacle to addressing the mentally ill and would also likely be resistant to close any loopholes in regards to background checks.

We are the perhaps the only country with such access to firearms without requiring people to be part of a militia. We should be responsible enough to address an issue that seems to stand out when looking at the reasons behind the mass shootings that seem to be occurring with increasing frequency.

For differing reasons, neither party is doing that.

 

[marincounty]

It seems to me that the era of NRA invincibility is over, or nearly over. Republican pols have pandered to the gun nut crowd for years, with good results (politically). Dems have been too scared to address gun problems because of the highly funded and active gun lobby. Only Dems with an easy re-election path like Feinstein have the guts to take on the gun lobby.
But with highly publicized mass shootings the price to pay for supporting gun restrictions has decreased.
Just as GWB and Republicans used the 9/11 attacks to push through the Patriot Act and crazy spending on Defense and Homeland Security, and demonize anyone opposing them as soft on terrorism, Demos may have enough momentum to push something through Congress.
Contrary to what you read here, most Americans are not gun nutters, and want reasonable restrictions on firearms.

 

[Munky]

The bottom line over magazine size is if you're reloading you're not shooting. And if you're in a position where that matters past 10 shots or so you're either doing it wrong or you're shooting up a crowd.

Hell, past 2 shots and you're probably doing it wrong.

Spoken like someone who has never had to shoot in a stressful situation at multiple attackers. Under stress, your accuracy goes to sh!t, and with a 10 round magazine you'd better hope you're not outnumbered.

 

[BladeVenom]

Here in America? Please link to story. All I remember were some receivers that had the third axis hole for the auto sear that surfaced after the 86 import ban.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,135999,00.html

It's hard to find stories about it now. I think there was another machine gun sale, and even an RPG sale. One of the busts I think was called Operation Dragonfire. Those happened during the Clinton administration.

 

[BoberFett]

It seems to me that the era of NRA invincibility is over, or nearly over. Republican pols have pandered to the gun nut crowd for years, with good results (politically). Dems have been too scared to address gun problems because of the highly funded and active gun lobby. Only Dems with an easy re-election path like Feinstein have the guts to take on the gun lobby.
But with highly publicized mass shootings the price to pay for supporting gun restrictions has decreased.
Just as GWB and Republicans used the 9/11 attacks to push through the Patriot Act and crazy spending on Defense and Homeland Security, and demonize anyone opposing them as soft on terrorism, Demos may have enough momentum to push something through Congress.
Contrary to what you read here, most Americans are not gun nutters, and want reasonable restrictions on firearms.

Democrats certainly are a delusioned bunch...

 

[OverVolt]

It seems to me that the era of NRA invincibility is over, or nearly over. Republican pols have pandered to the gun nut crowd for years, with good results (politically). Dems have been too scared to address gun problems because of the highly funded and active gun lobby. Only Dems with an easy re-election path like Feinstein have the guts to take on the gun lobby.
But with highly publicized mass shootings the price to pay for supporting gun restrictions has decreased.
Just as GWB and Republicans used the 9/11 attacks to push through the Patriot Act and crazy spending on Defense and Homeland Security, and demonize anyone opposing them as soft on terrorism, Demos may have enough momentum to push something through Congress.
Contrary to what you read here, most Americans are not gun nutters, and want reasonable restrictions on firearms.

The east coast, west coast, and mid-west are different.

East coast gun ownership is abysmal, well you know on paper with Philly, DC, New York and what not. Probably more drug dealers own guns than legal gun owners in those areas.
Mid-West is a gun owner mecca
West coast varies, with low ownership emanating from Cali. Everywhere else has a fair bit of gun owners.

 

[jpeyton]

It seems to me that the era of NRA invincibility is over, or nearly over.

They have 4 million members, an untold number of supporters, and they pull in $200+ million in revenues per year. They have incredibly deep pockets, the support of the $30 billion firearms industry, and a well organized base. The anti-gun crowd has the Brady Campaign.

But with highly publicized mass shootings the price to pay for supporting gun restrictions has decreased.

Polls still show the public is split on more gun control, even after Sandy Hook.

Bush had unprecedented support for action from a majority of the country for action after 9/11. It wasn't split down the middle like Obama's support for gun control is right now.

The House GOP is the biggest roadblock to more gun laws right now. How is a divided country going to convince 33 typically pro-gun legislators to flip on their base?

 

[Darwin333]

so how come all the other western countries with strict gun control have much less violence? Are Americans THAT different from the rest of the developed western nations?

Why is it that America has more people incarcerated than ANY other nation on earth including China who has what 10 times our population? I will have to double check this but I think we have more people in jail than all other first world nations combined! Can't blame that on the guns.

 

[Darwin333]

For instance the shooter in AZ did have an extended magazine in his pistol and was tackled when he had to reload.

Just to clarify, the AZ shooters extended magazine jammed when he reloaded which almost definitely allowed him to be tackled. Cheap aftermarket junk like 30rd magazines for a glock pistol do that a LOT. Had he been using factory magazines he could have potentially killed a lot more people because they almost never jam and it takes very few seconds to slap a fresh mag in.

 

[Darwin333]

I have an idea that I truly think would help to reduce mass shootings. Tell me what you think. This solution combines the ideas from both camps since neither side alone can solve the issue.

1. Ban assault weapons and large clips for the general population, retro active. Anything else will have no effect.

2. Allow citizens to arm themselves with and have on hand, assault weapons with large clips, under special circumstances. If you can show that you actually need a weapon like this, the second amendment makes clear that you should have it. I find this reasonable.

How do you figure the 2nd amendment makes clear that you should have it only if you can demonstrate need? I know a lot of things can be interpreted differently but I always figured "shall not be infringed" is pretty cut and dry.

As far as retroactively enforcing the ban, how do you repay people with tons of money in their firearms? Perhaps the .gov will purchase those back but what about the accessories, which can and often do cost more than the gun itself, which are now useless to the owner without the actual gun to put them on?

Lastly, 10 round limits for handguns are absurd. Look at how many shots the police often fire in an encounter and they are supposed to be much more highly trained than your average citizen.

 

[Darwin333]

We have a problem with radical Islam and them trying to put in sharia

Huh? What did I miss? Shrug, at least their laws aren't as bad as some of the ones that you have proposed.

 

[Incorruptible]

Huh? What did I miss? Shrug, at least their laws aren't as bad as some of the ones that you have proposed.

What? Your comparing sharia law to my ideas?

I never called for women to be treated as property anything else like sharia

 

[blankslate]

Just to clarify, the AZ shooters extended magazine jammed when he reloaded which almost definitely allowed him to be tackled. Cheap aftermarket junk like 30rd magazines for a glock pistol do that a LOT. Had he been using factory magazines he could have potentially killed a lot more people because they almost never jam and it takes very few seconds to slap a fresh mag in.

According to witnesses he dropped the new magazine, when he tried to reload.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-09/...elle-giffords-people-shot-doctors?_s=PM:CRIME

Authorities said the suspect, 22-year-old Jared Lee Loughner, was tackled by two men when he tried to reload his pistol -- while a woman in the crowd, Patricia Maisch, took away the fresh magazine Loughner had dropped.

"He pulled the magazine out of his pants pocket and it dropped onto the sidewalk. And before he could reach it, I got it," Maisch told CNN. "I just reacted. I didn't have an opportunity to think."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/patr...nman-reloading/story?id=12577933#.UNJmyG9ZUuE



AFAIK no witnesses mentioned that his 30 round magazine jammed.


In any case like I said even with only ten round magazines a person has practiced at reloading can still cause many deaths.

 

[xj0hnx]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,135999,00.html

It's hard to find stories about it now. I think there was another machine gun sale, and even an RPG sale. One of the busts I think was called Operation Dragonfire. Those happened during the Clinton administration.

Interesting story, but it isn't a cut and dry as a couple of Chinese gun companies. Both are owned by the Chinese government, and make weapons for the PLA. It's also pretty interesting when you start looking at some of the heads of those companies, and their relationship with Clinton at the time, no wonder it wasn't a huge international scandal.

 

[marincounty]

They have 4 million members, an untold number of supporters, and they pull in $200+ million in revenues per year. They have incredibly deep pockets, the support of the $30 billion firearms industry, and a well organized base. The anti-gun crowd has the Brady Campaign.


Polls still show the public is split on more gun control, even after Sandy Hook.

Bush had unprecedented support for action from a majority of the country for action after 9/11. It wasn't split down the middle like Obama's support for gun control is right now.

The House GOP is the biggest roadblock to more gun laws right now. How is a divided country going to convince 33 typically pro-gun legislators to flip on their base?

I didn't say it was going to be easy. Feinstein says she will reintroduce an AWB.
The NRA was silent for a few days after the shooting. At least we are discussing the issue, that is good, the first step toward acknowledging a problem.

 

[Munky]

I didn't say it was going to be easy. Feinstein says she will reintroduce an AWB.
The NRA was silent for a few days after the shooting. At least we are discussing the issue, that is good, the first step toward acknowledging a problem.

And Feinstein would love to turn the whole country into the kool-aid drinking Calimexifornia if she had the chance. That's the first step to acknowledging the actual problem. Does Feinstein have anything to say whenever a gun prevents a violent crime from occurring? Or does the propaganda media, for that matter? Does Feinstein even have any background in criminal justice that would qualify her to make an informed decision about reducing violent crime? No, because in her delusional mind, if she could prevent law-abiding citizens from possessing firearms, then we'd all be holding hands and singing kumbaya.

 

[Genx87]

I didn't say it was going to be easy. Feinstein says she will reintroduce an AWB.
The NRA was silent for a few days after the shooting. At least we are discussing the issue, that is good, the first step toward acknowledging a problem.

What problem? By all accounts the brady bill was worthless. All it did was keep law abiding citizens from owning guns that scare democrats. Obama is welcome to waste his political capital fighting a battle lost 20 years ago if we wants.

 

[NoStateofMind]

 

[dmens]

For those who want a historical precedent, this book describes how the US regime has used all types of crises to expand their power. Often times the crises themselves were created by the regime itself, the government creating the problem then masquerading as the solution:

http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Leviath...+and+leviathan

The most obvious example with gun control is the 1934 National Firearms Act, passed in the aftermath of government induced Prohibition violence.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

For those who want a historical precedent, this book describes how the US regime has used all types of crises to expand their power. Often times the crises themselves were created by the regime itself, the government creating the problem then masquerading as the solution:

http://www.amazon.com/Crisis-Leviath...+and+leviathan

The most obvious example with gun control is the 1934 National Firearms Act, passed in the aftermath of government induced Prohibition violence.

I do find it odd that everytime some people get shot now we have to have a gun control debate. It seems a little too convenient.

Hell, at this point, I am just waiting for Obama to turn into the Antichrist.

 

[Darwin333]

What is an assault rifle, is it a semi-auto rifle like every other semi-auto rifle that looks like a military rifle?

I like how the slippery slope isn't even trying to be hidden lol.

http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14/index.html

Oh look they're all very similar. Which one is the scary assault rifle? The second one?

Hint: They are all Mini-14's

Funny thing is, even though they are the exact same actual weapons differing only by the accessories put on them (almost all of which don't effect the "deadliness" of the gun), the 2nd and 4th would be illegal under the assault weapons ban. The first and pretty sure the 3rd would be perfectly legal.

 

[Darwin333]

What? Your comparing sharia law to my ideas?

I never called for women to be treated as property anything else like sharia

I am not sure what your stance is on womens rights but I do know that Muslims (not sure exactly how Sharia handles it but I bet money Sharia too) are much more compassionate to burglars than you have proposed. Considering that their way is still fucked up that puts you in the really really fucked up category.

 

[Darwin333]

According to witnesses he dropped the new magazine, when he tried to reload.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-09/...elle-giffords-people-shot-doctors?_s=PM:CRIME


http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/patr...nman-reloading/story?id=12577933#.UNJmyG9ZUuE



AFAIK no witnesses mentioned that his 30 round magazine jammed.


In any case like I said even with only ten round magazines a person has practiced at reloading can still cause many deaths.

Here are just a few stories in which it was reported by the authorities that his gun jammed as he switched mags. Those 30 round mags are incredibly cheap chinese junk and have a huge tendency to jam. They aren't really useful for anything other than plinking at the range when your ass isn't on the line if your gun doesn't go bang. Heck, I wouldn't even bring them to the range but depending on the progress of this AWB bill I might pick a few up for investments. I have already bought a few AR-15 lower receivers (the part that is considered a gun), if the AWB actually goes through I could potentially quadruple my investment depending on how long I want to hold them and/or if I feel like building a full rifle. If not I can sell them locally and not take a loss so there isn't much of a downside.

Mueller said the shooting involved a legally purchased Glock 9-millimeter, a semiautomatic pistol. Loughner allegedly fired all 31 bullets in the magazine and was reloading when a woman in the crowd, already wounded, attempted to grab the gun from him. He finally changed the magazine and tried to fire, authorities said, but the gun jammed. Meanwhile, two men from the crowd grabbed him and subdued him, according to officials.
Had Loughner been successful in firing the second magazine, "there would have been a huge, greater catastrophe," Sheriff Dupnik said. The sheriff also said that the toll had climbed to 20, six dead and 14 injured, including the congresswoman. Just before Mueller outlined the latest investigative details, doctors treating the injured congresswoman gave an upbeat assessment about her condition after the attack.

http://www.mlive.com/news/us-world/index.ssf/2011/01/charges_filed_against_jared_le.html

Loughner fired all 31 bullets in the magazine and was reloading when a woman in the crowd, already wounded, attempted to grab the gun from him. He finally changed the magazine and tried to fire, but the gun jammed. Meanwhile, two men from the crowd grabbed him and subdued him, officials said.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/09/nation/la-na-0110-gabrielle-giffords-20110110

Authorities allege Mr. Loughner's anger exploded on Saturday. Shortly after 10 a.m., as U.S. District Court Judge John Roll greeted Ms. Giffords in front of a Safeway supermarket, authorities charged Mr. Loughner fired a Glock 9mm semiautomatic pistol into the back of her head. In the seconds that followed, say authorities, Mr. Loughner shot 18 others, six fatally, including the judge and a 9-year-old girl, before his gun jammed and he was wrestled to the ground.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703667904576071191163461466.html