And Now, The "Blue Flu" comes to town.

[Zorba]

Right so the TSA added no value there




That's false reasoning. Absence of something doesn't mean it was prevented or discouraged. And it is well known that the TSA fails 90+% of the time so the statistical chance a terrorist makes it through is quite high. 9/11 style attacks can no longer happen because of aircraft changes and procedures (cockpit door hardening) Not because the TSA stops 10% of bombs and firearms going through their checkpoints



If you read the links I posted even a government study found private security to be more efficient and friendly.

And let's not forget things like the quiet skies program which had air Marshall's follow you if you looked at the gate, boarded late or slept on the plane:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...ero-threats/dsCm4BG3pq8v3xhi01zhLI/story.html

Or the secret watch list they put you on if your were rude to them or waited near security screening
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/17/us/politics/new-watch-list-tsa-screeners-.html

Or their unscientific, rascit profiling tactics:
https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-...w-documents-show-tsa-program-blamed-profiling

I could go on about and on but you feel safer despite the mountain of evidence they are ineffective so I guess that validates molestation, racism, search and seizures, etc etc that they bring (27,000 of the 55,000 agents have had complaints registered against them.)

I personally hate the TSA and all the BS they do. But the proof of effectiveness does lay in the lack of events. We know from the past people like to target commercial aviation and the amount of targetting has dropped dramatically and they amount of success has been zero over the last 17 years.

Your stance would be just like saying the secret service was useless because we're is the proof they've prevented any attack? And they even failed with JFK, McKinley and partially failed with Reagan. So let's dump them.

Again, I don't like the TSA, I don't like their tactics, I really don't like the nude scanners, or the groping (I have to get a full pat down almost every time I fly with my daughter because I carry on shelf stable milk and somehow playing with my nuts proves the milk is safe). But to say they (or airport security in general) aren't discouraging attacks is completely delusional.

The flight deck doors are great, but they are mostly theater too.

 

[UglyCasanova]

The flight deck doors are great, but they are mostly theater too.

?

 

[Zorba]

?

I'm not getting into it, but I'm sure you can find info on the internet. Plenty of other ways to take down an aircraft that are not hardened.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Ah great... I have a flight out of SFO to LAX and back during the MLK weekend. It's a bad route on good days and TSA problems aren't going to make it any more pleasant.

I've had a couple TSA experiences where a K9 Bomb Squad Vet was on duty sniffing bags and it greatly streamlined the process so shoes could stay on etc... Hope the TSA finds any efficiencies that they can but as has been said earlier in this thread: people aren't going to care until the shutdown gets in their face.

I may have to pay the Piper on that one...

 

[Viper1j]

My dads a recently retired one, they’ve probably crossed paths. Especially since he worked the air ops out of OKC for a long time.

He just started with the Service last year. After 30 years with California State Parole, he retired and spent a year doing various cruise ships, and then found out he was bored.

He wanted to go for ConAir for the free travel, until he found out how many hours they put in. So now he's just babysitting federal prisoners at hospitals.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Fun fact my pops transported McVeigh. We lived in OKC during the bombing and he was his guard on the flight to his trial in Denver.

 

[Viper1j]

Fun fact my pops transported McVeigh. We lived in OKC during the bombing and he was his guard on the flight to his trial in Denver.

I'm still a little surprised he made to trial..

No "accidental" fall down the stairs or anything. There were kids in that building.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Girl that lived a few houses down from us lost her dad in it. Blew the doors off the building at my moms work. I remember our elementary school planted a memorial tree that’s still there. Crazy times for sure.

 

[Viper1j]

Both Timmy McVeigh and Lee H Oswald were former Marines.

Ironic and sad.

 

[pcgeek11]

yeah, fuck your both sides nonsense - it's on Trump and McConnell.

Blah, Blah, Blah.........................

You too.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I’ve not encountered any delays over the last two weeks and all the TSA checkpoints are staffed to the levels they usually are. I have made it a point to thank the TSA agents for coming to work.

 

[Exterous]

None of that matters wrt the current situation. If enough TSA personnel fail to show up to work air travel will be greatly curtailed. Their effectiveness isn't the point at all, nor are their misdeeds.

It's pretty obvious there is a side tangent going on in this thread

Your stance would be just like saying the secret service was useless because we're is the proof they've prevented any attack? And they even failed with JFK, McKinley and partially failed with Reagan. So let's dump them.

That's a flawed analogy. Once the Secret Service starts touching the genetalia of Americans on a regular basis (ie "enhanced pat down"), refusing to comply with US Court orders (for several years) and search a million Americans per day we could start looking at your analogy

But you feel safer so what's giving up some freedoms for imagined safety right? (better security could have been achieved without going nearly to the extent the TSA has. Lots of articles about all the airport security failures that lead to 9/11)

https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/257900-court-orders-tsa-over-full-body-x-ray-scanners

 

[SMOGZINN]

I’ve not encountered any delays over the last two weeks and all the TSA checkpoints are staffed to the levels they usually are. I have made it a point to thank the TSA agents for coming to work.

You are lucky, there are lots of airports that are starting to see the strain.

Checkpoint is only one small part of what TSA does. They are managing to staff checkpoint by taking people away from the other functions you don't see, and rightfully so. But the thing to remember is that as this goes on that will get harder to maintain, and eventually it will break. I imagine things are going to start to get a lot worse this Friday when the first paycheck is missed. My guess is that Saturday will see the largest sick day in TSA history.

 

[Zorba]

It's pretty obvious there is a side tangent going on in this thread



That's a flawed analogy. Once the Secret Service starts touching the genetalia of Americans on a regular basis (ie "enhanced pat down"), refusing to comply with US Court orders (for several years) and search a million Americans per day we could start looking at your analogy

But you feel safer so what's giving up some freedoms for imagined safety right? (better security could have been achieved without going nearly to the extent the TSA has. Lots of articles about all the airport security failures that lead to 9/11)

https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/257900-court-orders-tsa-over-full-body-x-ray-scanners

You obviously just want to argue. I already agreed I don't like their methods and think they go over board. However, airport security works and is needed, history proves that. The fact the US went from multiple hijackings a year to none for over a decade, while air travel has exponentially increased proves airport security is an effective deterrent, even if they have a relatively low finding rate.

If you go back to my original post, it was clearly about the need for airport security, not TSA specifically. I personally participated in the opt-out movement over more than 40 round trip fights after they released the body scanners until they started using generic stick figure representation, as a form of protest over the privacy issues. So like I said, I don't like the TSA or their methods, but airport security is a required evil one way or the other.

I now have bought into the pay to play system so I get to skip most of the BS, except when I have to be searched to prove my daughter's milk is safe.

When we are talking about deterrence I think the SS is a pretty good analogy. Privacy is a different issue than effectiveness, and I don't think anyone would claim the SS wasn't effective at defending the president just because they hadn't obviously stopped an active attack.

 

[Exterous]

You obviously just want to argue.

It takes two to engage

When we are talking about deterrence I think the SS is a pretty good analogy. Privacy is a different issue than effectiveness, and I don't think anyone would claim the SS wasn't effective at defending the president just because they hadn't obviously stopped an active attack.

Distilling it down to merely effectiveness is still a terrible analogy. If we go that far my anti-alien invader defense system has a 100% effectiveness rate. The world is a complex place and decoupling how the world works and is impacted by organizations makes for bad analogies

The proof that they prevent attacks is the fact that no one has attempted one in a long time, and there has been no successful attack since 9/11. I get annoyed by TSA as much as anyone and fly all the time, but they do accomplish they're goal of preventing attacks on aircraft.

Here is the problem with your line of thinking. The existing security procedures should have stopped 9/11. What enabled the attacks was a failure of security, detection and follow through. What do we have now? A failure of security, detection and follow through. And a very well publicized one at that.

Your argument that "they do accomplish they're goal of preventing attacks on aircraft." also works for non-TSA security from the 80s right up to September 10th. Clearly the absence of an attack does not mean they are actually effective or necessarily a deterrent

https://gazette.com/news/how-could-...cle_e4c4470f-22e5-554f-9187-2bbbe31f86b3.html

 

[Fenixgoon]

It takes two to engage



Distilling it down to merely effectiveness is still a terrible analogy. If we go that far my anti-alien invader defense system has a 100% effectiveness rate. The world is a complex place and decoupling how the world works and is impacted by organizations makes for bad analogies



Here is the problem with your line of thinking. The existing security procedures should have stopped 9/11. What enabled the attacks was a failure of security, detection and follow through. What do we have now? A failure of security, detection and follow through. And a very well publicized one at that.

Your argument that "they do accomplish they're goal of preventing attacks on aircraft." also works for non-TSA security from the 80s right up to September 10th. Clearly the absence of an attack does not mean they are actually effective or necessarily a deterrent

https://gazette.com/news/how-could-...cle_e4c4470f-22e5-554f-9187-2bbbe31f86b3.html

Let the bears pay the bear tax. I pay the homer tax!

 

[Zorba]

It takes two to engage



Distilling it down to merely effectiveness is still a terrible analogy. If we go that far my anti-alien invader defense system has a 100% effectiveness rate. The world is a complex place and decoupling how the world works and is impacted by organizations makes for bad analogies



Here is the problem with your line of thinking. The existing security procedures should have stopped 9/11. What enabled the attacks was a failure of security, detection and follow through. What do we have now? A failure of security, detection and follow through. And a very well publicized one at that.

Your argument that "they do accomplish they're goal of preventing attacks on aircraft." also works for non-TSA security from the 80s right up to September 10th. Clearly the absence of an attack does not mean they are actually effective or necessarily a deterrent

https://gazette.com/news/how-could-...cle_e4c4470f-22e5-554f-9187-2bbbe31f86b3.html

Have fun arguing with your strawman, I'm out.

 

[Exterous]

Have fun arguing with your strawman, I'm out.

Sorry but pointing out flawed analogies and logic is not a 'strawman'

 

[hal2kilo]

Don't forget that the US Coast Guard isn't getting paid during this shutdown either. That's what always made me laugh about Trump and the other Regressives claiming that this was about boarder security. How many kilos of drugs and "bad guys" does the USCG intercept each week? Just wait until they start getting the blue flu as well.

Yea, the real invasion is probably a fleet of coke subs.

 

[Zorba]

Sorry but pointing out flawed analogies and logic is not a 'strawman'

Continuing to act like I am arguing pro-TSA, not airport security is, though.

But again, when you go from multiple hijackings a year, to none for over a decade, while at the same time air travel and worldwide terrorism have significantly increased, it is a pretty damn good indication that airport security is at least serving as a deterrent. People didn't just all of sudden decide that aircraft weren't good targets anymore. This is pretty basic cause and effect.

Also comparing two security forces who's primary goal is deterrence and neither have a known history of stopping an attack before it happened, is a pretty good analogy. I am sorry your hatred of the TSA has tainted your reasoning abilities.

BTW: Your "anti-alien invader defense system" has a 100% effectiveness rate because there is no threat. There is a massive threat against commercial aviation, this has been proven over and over again. Just like there is a real threat against any POTUS. So, your analogy is stupid.

 

[Viper1j]

It's a band-aid on an amputation, but still better than nothing.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/12/us/tsa-employees-government-shutdown-pay/index.html

Unpaid airport screening agents to get a day's pay and $500 bonus during shutdown

Seeking to ease the pain of airport security agents working through the partial government shutdown, the Transportation Security Administration is compensating those on duty the day after the lapse in funding and awarding $500 bonuses for work during the holiday travel season.
TSA Administrator David Pekoske announced the compensation Friday on Twitter amid mounting concerns that the nation's airports might not be able to provide the usual standard of security. Already, hundreds of TSA screeners from at least four major airports have called out from their shifts since the shutdown began three weeks ago.

Pekoske said all TSA employees who worked December 22, the last day in that pay period, will receive pay for the day no later than Tuesday. They didn't get paid originally because the day started after the shutdown began.
The $500 bonuses for uniformed screening officers who worked during the busy holiday travel season should arrive in the coming days, Pekoske tweeted.
The administrator said the pay was possible due to "unique authorities provided TSA in law."

"While I realize this is not what you are owed for your hard work ... and what you deserve, I hope these actions alleviate some of the financial hardship many of you are facing," the TSA chief wrote.

On Saturday, Miami International Airport decided to shut down a concourse early for three days due to a shortage of TSA screeners, airport spokesman Greg Chin said. Concourse G was to close after 1 p.m. Saturday, Sunday and Monday, he said.

About 51,000 TSA agents are among the 800,000 government employees working without pay or on furlough. This week, they missed their first full paychecks since the shutdown.

TSA officers screen about 800 million passengers a year. Considered essential employees, the agents are among the 420,000 federal workers expected to continue to work without compensation.

Pekoske held a call Monday with TSA security directors from airports across the country to discuss the impact of the shutdown, including a growing number of agents refusing to work without pay.

The longest shutdown in US history started after President Donald Trump refused to back off a demand for $5.7 billion for his long-promised border wall. The figure remains a nonstarter for Democrats, leaving Congress at an impasse that triggered the partial shutdown -- which has affected key parts of the federal government, including the departments of Homeland Security, Justice, Interior, State and Housing and Urban Development.

 

[Viper1j]

Nah man, you just claim sovereign citizenship! And that taxes are unconstitutional and other shit. That'll go over really well.

Yeah, that shit really worked well for Wesley Snipes.

And he was Blade!

 

[MomentsofSanity]

Some of the delays in security @ Atlanta that the Trump admin says isn't happening.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1084808098240516098

 

[senseamp]

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys. If you pay with IOUs, you get FUs.

 

[K1052]

Shit is really going to hit the fan this week. Air controllers and CBP probably aren't far behind TSA. No income means eventually you've got to stop showing up.