Android will get its BEHIND handed to itself by iOS if Google doesn't get it together

[Bateluer]

Nah if I were holding out for one it would have been the iPhone 4. I think everyone who's been attracted to them in the slightest has already got one. At this point Apple needs to consider whole new markets instead of oversaturating its current market.

More people buy smart phones every year, its still a growing market. From the past, Apple usually refreshes the iPhone once a year, giving plenty of time for people to upgrade if they skip a generation. iPhone 2G to Iphone 4, 3GS to iPhone 5, etc. Course, a lot of them just upgrade early or buy the new version out right. Apple fans usually don't demonstrate sense with money.

 

[sswingle]

Wrong thread

 

[Brian Stirling]

Developers get revenue for offering ad-supported software through the market. Free for users, revenue for Google and developers for every ad view, so, just like the App Store, developers can charge for their wares or earn money through advertising within their app.

I aware of the ad support but it's my understanding that very few free apps that use ads make any decent money from them. Just to be clear, are you suggesting the app developers had better expect to earn only the pennies they can make from adds? Yeah, some heavily used apps may make a decent income from ads but even there the user base will often complain about the ads.

I'll say it again ... unless the Android user base evolves to believe paying for things is acceptable then Android will be orphaned by the devs. Would you pour 100's or 1000's of hours into an app that payed you little or nothing?


Brian

 

[Monster_Munch]

Rovio said they're making $1 million per month from ads in their android game. People complain about ads but they obviously still play the games.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

Rovio said they're making $1 million per month from ads in their android game. People complain about ads but they obviously still play the games.

I haven't heard any complaints about iAds in iOS (decreasing functionality). I know there's a lot of complaints about iAds collecting user information.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

I aware of the ad support but it's my understanding that very few free apps that use ads make any decent money from them. Just to be clear, are you suggesting the app developers had better expect to earn only the pennies they can make from adds? Yeah, some heavily used apps may make a decent income from ads but even there the user base will often complain about the ads.

I'll say it again ... unless the Android user base evolves to believe paying for things is acceptable then Android will be orphaned by the devs. Would you pour 100's or 1000's of hours into an app that payed you little or nothing?


Brian

Do free forums around the globe upkeep their servers using magic? Has Angry Birds on Android not made a ton of money for the dev?

Ads can make shit tons of money provided the app is GOOD. You can even make more than if you made it paid because people don't like paying money, they like free, and those tiny ads you see on android apps don't interfere with anything.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

Do free forums around the globe upkeep their servers using magic? Has Angry Birds on Android not made a ton of money for the dev?

Ads can make shit tons of money provided the app is GOOD. You can even make more than if you made it paid because people don't like paying money, they like free, and those tiny ads you see on android apps don't interfere with anything.

But it's more hit and miss for free apps with ads.

 

[Monster_Munch]

I've got 2 apps on the market with ads in. Neither of them is well known but I've made $350 since November last year from admob ads. I'm sure if you had a "hit" app that people talked about you would make some decent money.

 

[akugami]

I think overemphasizing the Google brand is a mistake. Apple did this because they want to vertically control (and profit from) all stages of the user experience. Rather than focus on mass adoption of their platform, Apple's objective is to maximize their share of the premium market segment only. This comes from their Mac/PC days when maximizing every amount of profit from a tiny market share was essential to the company's survival. So their brand identity is a central part of everything Apple does, their App Store, devices, websites, etc. Apple has succeeded in creating an army of loyal premium users that have an Apple logo ingrained in their mind when anyone mentions something that an Apple product can do. Great consumer loyalty, but market share... not so much.

I agree with your assessment of Apple's marketing philosophy but disagree about the potential for market share. Case in point, the iPod.

Likewise I think overinforming the consumer is a mistake. Microsoft does this with many of their products because they consistently overestimate the degree that consumers care about the nuances of their business. Instead of releasing one version of Windows, we get five. Instead of one smartphone platform, we get two. For some reason they seem to think that burying consumers in unnecessary choices is the way to maximize profit.

Last year's Bing lock-in agreements are probably the closest threat to the platform's growth that exist today. Basically Microsoft wanted Verizon to agree to preload and lock all phones with Bing search, even those that run non-Microsoft OSs. I would gamble that Google came the closest to locking down their platform when this arrangement was revealed, because it directly threatens their revenue stream by co-opting search engine hits being generated by Android users.

There is definitely a place for a more open platform which is what Android is. The ability to configure more aspects as well as use it in more ways makes Android an OS that can be used to create a potentially a device that can be used in more diverse ways.

The problem is that the lack of a rigid lock on certain aspects of Android can help to create a negative opinion of Android as the OP states. This is something a lot of fandroids will never admit. That the potential for diversity actually be a negative. Look at some of the custom UI's that are out for Android. Some of the Android users actually hate them and have to root the devices in order to install a more usable UI.

The problem is people who frequent places like Anandtech are more tech savvy. Joe Consumer will not know how to root an Android device and can have a negative opinion of Android when it's not really the Android OS's fault but the OEM putting a crap custom UI on it.

Don't get me started on Microsoft's commercials... Honestly, the best Ballmer can do for Microsoft at this point is to retire. They are lost with him at the helm.

You don't want Ballmer to retire my friend. Almost every few weeks we can count on some outrageous Ballmer news to come out. It's entertaining as all heck.

Android is in good shape, and being adopted far faster than iOS. Why? Because Google doesn't want to iron fist it, and let manufacturers and more importantly the community drive the innovation of the OS. There's a real benefit to doing it this way, rather than handcuffing end-users into a static and immutable platform that only gets minor updates year on year simply to drive revenue. iOS is the one that needs to be worried.

I'd argue that a major reason for Android's growth is OEM's have a ready made OS that is cheap to customize and integrate with their phones. The OS also gets regular feature updates at practically not cost to them. They don't have to bother with the hassle and cost of developing a custom OS, though many create a custom UI.

Also, cost to consumers is a major factor. Look at the top end Android phones and the iPhone. They're $200-300 on contract. There are a lot of Android phones that are sub-$100 which people can get a modern smart phone OS on but without the larger upfront cost.

It's going to be interesting to see how lower end WP7 phones affect Android's growth but we won't really see how that shakes out for a while.

The recent announcement of an iPhone on Verizon will definitely help Apple sell more iPhones but to really match Android's growth I think Apple needs to consider three pricing tiers on current models. A $100 lower end model. A $200 baseline model. And a $300 top of the line model. Currently the iPhone release is, last year's phone at $100, this year's base model at $200, and a top of the line at $300. They need to replace the lower end tier with a current phone and not last year's model.

 

[gsaldivar]

I agree with your assessment of Apple's marketing philosophy but disagree about the potential for market share. Case in point, the iPod.

In the case of the iPod, I think Apple's success comes from the fact that there simply aren't any competitors that understand the importance of having a fully integrated, well polished delivery platform (device + PC app + store). If a competitor existed, I think you would find Apple with a minority share of this market.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

In the case of the iPod, I think Apple's success comes from the fact that there simply aren't any competitors that understand the importance of having a fully integrated, well polished delivery platform (device + PC app + store). If a competitor existed, I think you would find Apple with a minority share of this market.

Even now there isn't a fully integrated, well polished delivery platform. You may be able to count Zune, but still, the Zune can't make any dent in the iTunes ecosystem.

 

[Brian Stirling]

Do free forums around the globe upkeep their servers using magic? Has Angry Birds on Android not made a ton of money for the dev?

Ads can make shit tons of money provided the app is GOOD. You can even make more than if you made it paid because people don't like paying money, they like free, and those tiny ads you see on android apps don't interfere with anything.

Again, yes, heavily used and popular apps like Angry Birds can do quite well from add support alone but Angry Birds is not typical of the 100,000+ apps now is it? For less frequently used but none-the-less important apps like airline flight tracking and many other apps the frequency the app is used and the duration used is low so the potential to make money from ads is limited.

Beyond that, I HATE ads and am willing to pay for a quality app that's free of ads but if no one else is willing to pay for it then it doesn't mature. It's not just the annoyance factor that bothers me about ads it's also the tracking aspect that bothers me from a privacy aspect. I get a shit ton of junk mail and spam as it is and don't want more of it jammed into my mailbox and inbox.

Brian

 

[gsaldivar]

The problem is that the lack of a rigid lock on certain aspects of Android can help to create a negative opinion of Android as the OP states.

This is true. With less centralized control over an ecosystem, manufacturers are free to bundle their own modifications to the system and still call the finished product "Android". However, one of the assumptions that some people make is that all manufacturer modifications are inferior and "vanilla" Android is always best choice. In reality, while some manufacturer modifications are inferior, others are actually quite good.

For example, look at HTC's Sense UI on Droid Incredible running Android 2.1. When this phone was released, it was HTC's Sense UI that provided several enhancements to Exchange ActiveSync compatibility, which did not exist in the stock Android system at the time. Without these enhancements, most Droid Incredible owners would have waited many months for them to be included as part of Google's 2.2 release.

While Apple is concerned with consumers having a "universally positive" regard for their products, it's fair to say that Google is more concerned with universal adoption of their platform. To achieve that goal, they relinquish some control over the implementation of its software on various devices, and in return they get many more manufacturers, carriers, and users that are willing to develop, sell and use their platform. As a result, there is more variance in the user experience on Android than iOS, some experiences better others poorer.

Manufacturers that repeatedly release products with flaws will find an increasing number of consumers that avoid their brand. Likewise, those that release products that are well engineered and reliable, will find their products in high demand. This "natural selection" will occur without Google exerting direct control over its ecosystem.

 

[gsaldivar]

Even now there isn't a fully integrated, well polished delivery platform. You may be able to count Zune, but still, the Zune can't make any dent in the iTunes ecosystem.

Correct. Microsoft is out of touch with their customers, and typically needs three product revisions to get one "hit". To this day, we are still waiting for any company to come up with a competitor to the iPod platform.

 

[MrX8503]

The thing about the iPod/iPhone/iTunes platform is that its a very strong ecosystem.

When I hook up my iPhone I'm literally syncing my entire digital life. It syncs, addresses, calendar, contacts, photos, videos, podcasts, apps, notes, and books all in one shot.

Another feature that I really like is iPhoto, if you own a Mac, your iPhoto translates perfectly to your iPhone's gallery. It syncs geotags, face tags, and event albums.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

The thing about the iPod/iPhone/iTunes platform is that its a very strong ecosystem.

When I hook up my iPhone I'm literally syncing my entire digital life. It syncs, addresses, calendar, contacts, photos, videos, podcasts, apps, notes, and books all in one shot.

Another feature that I really like is iPhoto, if you own a Mac, your iPhoto translates perfectly to your iPhone's gallery. It syncs geotags, face tags, and event albums.

But then again, some people don't want to be tied to a PC and they want everything in the cloud.

 

[abaez]

The thing about the iPod/iPhone/iTunes platform is that its a very strong ecosystem.

When I hook up my iPhone I'm literally syncing my entire digital life. It syncs, addresses, calendar, contacts, photos, videos, podcasts, apps, notes, and books all in one shot.

Another feature that I really like is iPhoto, if you own a Mac, your iPhoto translates perfectly to your iPhone's gallery. It syncs geotags, face tags, and event albums.

With the exception of music, all of this happens with Android too. When I do a factory reset on my phone the next time I restart my addresses, calendar, contacts, photos/videos uploaded to Picasa, notes, documents and even all of the apps I had downloaded are automatically downloaded and installed/synced.

Edit: Without hooking it to my pc to boot.

 

[akugami]

This is true. With less centralized control over an ecosystem, manufacturers are free to bundle their own modifications to the system and still call the finished product "Android". However, one of the assumptions that some people make is that all manufacturer modifications are inferior and "vanilla" Android is always best choice. In reality, while some manufacturer modifications are inferior, others are actually quite good.

This is true. Some of the changes to the stock Android versions can actually increase usability and are pleasant to use. But it still doesn't change the fact that the half-assed UI changes or feature implementations drag down Android as a whole.

It's not so much a problem for knowledgeable consumers but I think we all realize Joe Consumer doesn't do much in the way of research. His techy friend shows him some cool stuff done on an Android phone which might be OEM specific or even require a rooted phone and he rushes out to get any old Android phone and is disappointed with the results. He then tells all his friends about how Android sucks when it's not really the fault of the OS.

For example, look at HTC's Sense UI on Droid Incredible running Android 2.1. When this phone was released, it was HTC's Sense UI that provided several enhancements to Exchange ActiveSync compatibility, which did not exist in the stock Android system at the time. Without these enhancements, most Droid Incredible owners would have waited many months for them to be included as part of Google's 2.2 release.

It's positive changes like these that have helped push Android forward and because they're competing OS's it also helps push iOS forward. All consumers profit.

While Apple is concerned with consumers having a "universally positive" regard for their products, it's fair to say that Google is more concerned with universal adoption of their platform. To achieve that goal, they relinquish some control over the implementation of its software on various devices, and in return they get many more manufacturers, carriers, and users that are willing to develop, sell and use their platform. As a result, there is more variance in the user experience on Android than iOS, some experiences better others poorer.

Manufacturers that repeatedly release products with flaws will find an increasing number of consumers that avoid their brand. Likewise, those that release products that are well engineered and reliable, will find their products in high demand. This "natural selection" will occur without Google exerting direct control over its ecosystem.

I still think that long term, while Google should keep Android as open as possible, they should still control some aspects of the OS and make it a requirement for anyone releasing a Google phone. For example, the ability to remove the OEM's custom UI and replace it with the default. And we all know about Verizon's previous encounters with removing features such as bluetooth from a phone. I just think that Google should set a certain bar that says that an Android must contain X, Y, and Z features to be marketed as an Android phone.

 

[gsaldivar]

I just think that Google should set a certain bar that says that an Android must contain X, Y, and Z features to be marketed as an Android phone.

Is it really feasible to set standard features that all carriers, all manufacturers, and all users must agree to in order to use the Android system? Enforcing features goes against what I believe Google's objective is with Android (universal adoption). For each requirement that Google makes, there are a number of carriers, manufacturers, and users that will decide against selling, manufacturing, and using Android devices as a result.

For example: Android permits users to enable non-Market apps to be installed. While this is an OS option by default, there is no requirement that carriers extend this option to users. In fact, AT&T turns this option off, and does not allow the user to change that setting on AT&T-branded Android phones. If Google decided to require this option to be user-accessible, AT&T might decide not to permit any Android devices to operate on their network. If they do permit those devices, they may decide to require users to purchase a premium service rate for that extra feature.

Either way, users might be excluded from Android either by a carrier decision not to sell the device, or by the user deciding not to pay a premium rate to operate the device. Other examples: Tethering, VPN, Enterprise Email, VoIP, Video Chat... many of these are options that carriers in the past have charged premium fees for or disallowed on their phones. Right or wrong, it is ultimately the prerogative of the carrier to decide whether or not a device will be permitted to operate on their network, and what level of service and pricing to extend to the user.

If Google required any of these features to be standard on the Android platform, they would ultimately be excluding users from that platform. This is acceptable for Apple, which targets a premium market and is not overly concerned with market share because they maximize vertical profit from all stages of their standardized premium user experience.

 

[gsaldivar]

techy friend shows some cool stuff done on an Android phone which might be OEM specific or even require a rooted phone and he rushes out to get any old Android phone and is disappointed with the results.

I don't fundamentally have a problem with this. There are very few "deal breaker" features tied to custom UI overlays. Most consumers are looking for a simple to use, feature rich device - all current Android phones fit the bill.

By relinquishing some degree of control over the ecosystem and de-emphasizing the Brand name, purchasers will simply have to be more aware of the manufacturer, the features, and the carrier's price - as they should be.

 

[_Aurel_]

I don't fundamentally have a problem with this. There are very few "deal breaker" features tied to custom UI overlays. Most consumers are looking for a simple to use, feature rich device - all current Android phones fit the bill.

By relinquishing some degree of control over the ecosystem and de-emphasizing the Brand name, purchasers will simply have to be more aware of the manufacturer, the features, and the carrier's price - as they should be.

Have you used Motoblur? It amazes me how despite whether it runs on 600 mhrtz or 1.2 ghrtz proc Motorola still manages to eek out sluggish performance. Even beyond that, I have a few deal-breaking things that this UI does, one of which is a permanent record of your text messages in your contact history, even if you erased it in the text message app. Another are the buggy battery usage modes that have vague descriptions of what they actually do, and sometimes causes the handset to lose power altogether and could only be fixed with a battery pull/insert. I could go on but these are just a few examples, and you only notice this pattern of buggyness by having to constantly troubleshoot these devices.

I'm of the opinion that except for sense, a majority of Android manufacture UI's are pretty bad overall, with some good ideas sprinkled on them.

 

[TraumaRN]

All I know is that I'm not getting another iPhone. I currently have a 3G and besides the fact that iOS 4 fucked the hell out of my phones responsiveness, it also fucked up my SYNC on my Fusion Hybrid. Bluetooth audio streaming works fine but USB audio streaming does NOT work. Actually both worked fine until iOS 4. It's been since JUNE and no fix. I talked to a Ford CSR who stated to me it is Apple's problem not Ford and they have been working with Apple to release a fix but nothing so far. FOR SEVEN FUCKING MONTHS. I can't charge my phone nor can I use voice control to skip songs or play specific songs from my iPhone. Not to mention there is a quite noticeable difference in audio quality(much worse when streaming over bluetooth)

I'm glad Apple does software testing, because I'm not the only one who has run into this issue. Oh I forgot the software engineers were too busy swimming in cash to actually you know check that their software doesn't jack up another systems hardware.

That being said my contract expires in March and I'm going to get whatever platform and phone is the best at the time, which I'm guessing will be an Android phone, probably an Atrix if I were to guess. And at least I know I can use my car for USB audio again, given that numerous friends android phones have connected and had USB audio streaming music in a matter of 2 minutes.

 

[kaerflog]

All I know is that I'm not getting another iPhone. I currently have a 3G and besides the fact that iOS 4 fucked the hell out of my phones responsiveness, it also fucked up my SYNC on my Fusion Hybrid. Bluetooth audio streaming works fine but USB audio streaming does NOT work. Actually both worked fine until iOS 4. It's been since JUNE and no fix. I talked to a Ford CSR who stated to me it is Apple's problem not Ford and they have been working with Apple to release a fix but nothing so far. FOR SEVEN FUCKING MONTHS. I can't charge my phone nor can I use voice control to skip songs or play specific songs from my iPhone. Not to mention there is a quite noticeable difference in audio quality(much worse when streaming over bluetooth)

I'm glad Apple does software testing, because I'm not the only one who has run into this issue. Oh I forgot the software engineers were too busy swimming in cash to actually you know check that their software doesn't jack up another systems hardware.

That being said my contract expires in March and I'm going to get whatever platform and phone is the best at the time, which I'm guessing will be an Android phone, probably an Atrix if I were to guess. And at least I know I can use my car for USB audio again, given that numerous friends android phones have connected and had USB audio streaming music in a matter of 2 minutes.

Have you tried updating to 4.2.1 to see if it helps ??
It was suppose to help with the lagginess.
Apple should have never allow iphone 3G to be upgraded to 4.0
It has the same SoC as the 2G and its too slow to handle multi tasking.

To be honest, my extensive experience with the iphones was the 2G and 3G and I was never impressed.
It was good but I thought Android was better in many ways.
Then I got my hand on an iphone 4 and my opinion have swayed 180.
Even the 3GS is just as smooth as the IP4 minus the retina display.
What I'm saying is you should try the latest iphone before making up your mind. Your 3G is 2 yr old technology.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

Have you tried updating to 4.2.1 to see if it helps ??
It was suppose to help with the lagginess.
Apple should have never allow iphone 3G to be upgraded to 4.0
It has the same SoC as the 2G and its too slow to handle multi tasking.

To be honest, my extensive experience with the iphones was the 2G and 3G and I was never impressed.
It was good but I thought Android was better in many ways.
Then I got my hand on an iphone 4 and my opinion have swayed 180.
Even the 3GS is just as smooth as the IP4 minus the retina display.
What I'm saying is you should try the latest iphone before making up your mind. Your 3G is 2 yr old technology.

3G doesn't have multitasking.

 

[TraumaRN]

Have you tried updating to 4.2.1 to see if it helps ??
It was suppose to help with the lagginess.
Apple should have never allow iphone 3G to be upgraded to 4.0
It has the same SoC as the 2G and its too slow to handle multi tasking.

To be honest, my extensive experience with the iphones was the 2G and 3G and I was never impressed.
It was good but I thought Android was better in many ways.
Then I got my hand on an iphone 4 and my opinion have swayed 180.
Even the 3GS is just as smooth as the IP4 minus the retina display.
What I'm saying is you should try the latest iphone before making up your mind. Your 3G is 2 yr old technology.

Its not that it's not nice technology, I've played with a 4G Iphone, it is VERY nice. it's the issue with my car that will keep me from buying another iPhone. However after 7 months I have little faith Apple will fix the issue. And it's pissed me off enough that I honestly don't want another iphone despite it being so nice.