Andrzej Bania from ATI about the Hardware Analysis Review

crazydingo

Golden Member
May 15, 2005
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His detailed response at Beyond3D

Traditionally, I don't post in this forum.

Although I have massive respect for the work that goes on with Beyond3D - I always feel that the forum is best left to enthusiasts in the general public as well as the hardcore technologists from ATI and other organisations.

However, the ?Hardware Analysis thread? brought up several issues that I am not about to ignore and I want to set the record straight.

Firstly, at ATI we always try to work to the highest standards of professionalism and honesty possible. We have an open relationship with all of the press across the globe and we never shy away from tough questions.

Briefings
We have invited over 100 of Europe?s top press to our R520 Tech Day which takes place at the end of September.
Even with so many places, we cannot invite everyone.
The question remains - how do we brief the press who cannot make it on the day.
From the time that our Tech Day, we will be working with the regional press that we missed to ensure that as many technical journalists as possible have access to the relevant information.
Journalists who have seen and tested the final product themselves, can then be certain of the facts, should write EXACTLY what they feel.

If they love what they see ? great.

If they are not happy with what they see ? also great.

All we ask for is honesty in the copy itself... that they 'write it as they see it'

Having read through enough of Dave?s reviews over the years ? it is pretty clear that Beyond3D forum members have the same mind set as ATI?

JUST GIVE US THE FACTS & LEAVE THE FICTION AT THE DOOR - WE WILL MAKE OUR OWN MINDS UP THANK YOU VERY MUCH

CONCLUSION: When it comes to R520 results, you should only believe journalists who have established a reputation for being trustworthy


Not Invited
Sander has 'presented the reasons' why he was NOT on the list of 100 press for our R520 Tech Day.

However, he has conveniently left off the actual reason - which he and I have discussed at length in various emails. I am not talkning about a snatched comment - these were full blown conversations - going back and forth - that clearly detail the logic behind the decision.

Not inviting him to this Tech Day is a direct result of his response to the last invitation that I sent him

I am not going in to detail here - but it was that categorical refusal to engage that led to his being left off of this list. He knows exactly what I am talking about.

Remember, he would still have been briefed before the NDA lifted - just not at our Tech Day.

Let me say this clearly, there is no 'ATI black list for press who do not write nice stories'.

We want an open and honest press who report the facts as they see them - based on their own testing - rather than second hand gossip and fairy tales.

There are a number of reasons why any company would stop engaging with an individual - but writing honest copy is not one of them.

Honest reviews serve the vendor just as much as the customer - and anything less should be rejected.

CONCLUSION: If you choose NOT to work with a vendor - don't cry 'foul' when they decide NOT to work with you


Email conversations

As I have pointed out, honesty is crucial.

Emailing several people at ATI to explain that you are very important, that you have a series of specific demands that must be met as soon as possible and then going on to explain just how bad a job we are doing of keeping you happy is one thing.

However, including ATI's direct competition on 'cc' in such an email is another thing entirely.

To then 'jump to the moral high ground' when your 'threats' have been exposed is laughable.

CONCLUSION: Once you pick the rules of engagement - don't get upset when your true character is revealed later on


The Figures
When considering the performance of our next-generation products, you need to ask yourself one very simple question:

"Would ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe?s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Sander claims that these numbers were given to him by a trusted source.

The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.

CONCLUSION: Either Sander lied - or his 'trusted source' set him up to look stupid on a global stage for printing made up results


Edits
Intelligent readers also need to be aware that the first version of the story he posted seemed to accuse every site who attends the ATI Tech Day of a fundamental inability to be independent in their testing and copy.

Needless to say that I am sure several sites have 'web-wacked' that original version and will be considering taking action to defend their names.

CONCLUSION: If you are going to accuse the largest independent publications in Europe of being bent - make sure you have enough money in the bank to retain good council


Logic
The whole thing has clearly been engineered - to what purpose no one can say for certain.

Maybe he is trying to force ATI to offer an invitation to Tech Day... which is not going to succeed as we refuse to be strong-armed.

Perhaps it was a simple tantrum at not being taken seriously... when, in fact, that was not the case at all.

Cynical people might say that it was to generate hits... but we cannot be sure of that either.

Whether it was one of these reasons - or a completely different twist of logic - one thing is for certain - it has certainly acted as an appetiser for ATI's next generation launch... and for that I have to say 'Thanks Sander !'

Having corrected several of the 'inaccuracies', I am not going to say any more on the subject because the real strength of the Beyond3D forums is their focus on technology.

How open are we going to be with our Tech Day ?

Simple, in addition to the top news & reviews sites, we have also invited one of the largest nVidia fan sites in the world to come along, get briefed and benchmark R520 however they choose - along with the best of them.

The world's top press will have hands-on our latest products in less than two weeks and you can all decide then if you prefer facts or fiction.

Thank you for taking the time to read this

Kind regards,

Andrzej Bania
ATI Technologies
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
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alienbabeltech.com
what else could ati say? . . .

i also think Sanders lied for unknown reasons . . . ati would be stupid to launch a new product - with a LOT of fanfare - if it was second rate.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
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Maybe the wouldn't, or maybe its the best they could do given the problems. We'll see
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Is it me or has video felt alot like P and N except for video cards these past 3 days??
 

apoppin

Lifer
Mar 9, 2000
34,890
1
0
alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Hacp
Is it me or has video felt alot like P and N except for video cards these past 3 days??

it has always been this way . . . the embers are constantly burning ready to flame

. . . it is well-known - P&N is to OT

what

Video is to GH:Q

:thumbsdown:

we should all be ashamed






should . . .


 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Nah, not 5-6 flame threads on the exact same thing. There are always 1 or 2, but never this widespread.
 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
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Whether it was one of these reasons - or a completely different twist of logic - one thing is for certain - it has certainly acted as an appetiser for ATI's next generation launch... and for that I have to say 'Thanks Sander !'

heh jokes on sander lol

his little tiff was never gonna do anything but get ATI some attention from everyone
 

nRollo

Banned
Jan 11, 2002
10,460
0
0
Their reply is a JOKE.

QWould ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe?s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Errr, did they not invite the press for all their product launches (e.g. Rage, Radeon VIVO, 8500) that did lose? :roll:

Yeah I'm sure there was no release party for all their second/third best products from days gone by.
 

5150Joker

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2002
5,549
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71
www.techinferno.com
Originally posted by: Rollo
Their reply is a JOKE.

QWould ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe?s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Errr, did they not invite the press for all their product launches (e.g. Rage, Radeon VIVO, 8500) that did lose? :roll:

Yeah I'm sure there was no release party for all their second/third best products from days gone by.


Yeah but the stakes are much higher now that they're considered a top tier graphics company.
 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
0
0
Originally posted by: Rollo
Their reply is a JOKE.

QWould ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe?s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Errr, did they not invite the press for all their product launches (e.g. Rage, Radeon VIVO, 8500) that did lose? :roll:

Yeah I'm sure there was no release party for all their second/third best products from days gone by.


no company ever likes to think that theyre gonna lose either. all companies believe they can win, thats why theyre in business. regardless of what they've made, they're always gonna be optimists and go for the win.

so yeah that is abit of a moot point he made there.

i mean i dont go to a competition with the midset that im gonna lose, i go thinking that i can win. always. i rarely do win mind
 

M0RPH

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,302
1
0
The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.
Sander = owned

Everyone else that so willingly believed his results and gloated over them = owned

 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
0
0
Originally posted by: M0RPH
The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.
Sander = owned

Everyone else that so willingly believed his results and gloated over them = owned


heh we'll have to wait and see. at the minute its sanders word against ATI's word.

sander cant provide proof because he didnt do the benches, and ATI wont provide proof becuase they set up the NDA, and to circumvent it now because of one guy would make NDAs pointless.

judgement day will be the day NDA is lifted, then we can see who wins and who loses.

(ive got a feeling sanders website will lose alot of cred .....if it had any, id never heard of that site )
 

mwmorph

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2004
8,877
1
81
Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
cliffs?

sanders posts "benches"

benches disputed by ati.
Alleges sanders is angry about not being invited due to his strong arm, unethical blah blah blah.

flame war. nobody decieds to actually wait for more benchies but decides to do some wild speculation.

I am sorta leaning ati's direction. sanders provides nil info on how he got these benchies, any photos of the cards, or otherwise any real proof he did any benchmarks. it sounds a lot like tabloid talk. If you have never read a tabloid, pick one up. you will see it will report shocking news, but with no basis on research, instead it will say "a source", has given them confirmed information such as:
true tabloid stories
a man frozen in a iceberg unaged for 90 years is picked up by a fishing trawler. when he is unfrozen, he quickly ages and conviently dies. the body is lost.

a baby tied to a life preserver from the titanic survives an hour in freezing water. the baby is now an old woman and is talking about the expreince as she "remembers" it form when she was 1 year old.

as you can see, a lot of crackpot stuff will come from "sources"
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
16,215
0
71
Originally posted by: M0RPH
The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.
Sander = owned

Everyone else that so willingly believed his results and gloated over them = owned


How so? What did this response prove? How do we know he is telling the truth? It proved there is some hard feelings no doubt. Does that discredit any of his results? nope!!!

Heh. I like ATI. I would have gotten an ATI for my current machine if I didn't want to do the quadro mod. I think ATI video looks better. My opnion ofcourse but I think ATI fans in here were hurt from the get go about what appears to be disappointing numbers...nevermid the numbers can improve with more mature drivers....nevermind ATI neds to be a lot better to justify the cost out of the gate....That is not Nvidia's fault or Sander's fault...get over it and wait for AT, techReport, Xbitlabs, and other sites to review it. Dont take it so personally...
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Originally posted by: mwmorph
Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
cliffs?

sanders posts "benches"

benches disputed by ati.
Alleges sanders is angry about not being invited due to his strong arm, unethical blah blah blah.

flame war. nobody decieds to actually wait for more benchies but decides to do some wild speculation.

qft!
 

jasonja

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2001
1,864
0
0
Originally posted by: Rollo
Their reply is a JOKE.

QWould ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe?s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Errr, did they not invite the press for all their product launches (e.g. Rage, Radeon VIVO, 8500) that did lose? :roll:

Yeah I'm sure there was no release party for all their second/third best products from days gone by.

Can't EVER say anything good about ATI can you?
 

crazydingo

Golden Member
May 15, 2005
1,134
0
0
Originally posted by: Duvie
Heh. I like ATI. I would have gotten an ATI for my current machine if I didn't want to do the quadro mod. I think ATI video looks better. My opnion ofcourse but I think ATI fans in here were hurt from the get go about what appears to be disappointing numbers...nevermid the numbers can improve with more mature drivers....nevermind ATI neds to be a lot better to justify the cost out of the gate....That is not Nvidia's fault or Sander's fault...get over it and wait for AT, techReport, Xbitlabs, and other sites to review it. Dont take it so personally...
Its not a matter of your likes or anybody elses'. Sander accused all those who were invited (including Anandtech) as being biased or were sold out to ATI. There in lies the reason to be upset with Sander.

The numbers are a different matter altogether. Until Anandtech comes out with their own article, nobody knows. But we know that we cant believe those numbers from Sander.
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
16,215
0
71
Originally posted by: crazydingo
Originally posted by: Duvie
Heh. I like ATI. I would have gotten an ATI for my current machine if I didn't want to do the quadro mod. I think ATI video looks better. My opnion ofcourse but I think ATI fans in here were hurt from the get go about what appears to be disappointing numbers...nevermid the numbers can improve with more mature drivers....nevermind ATI neds to be a lot better to justify the cost out of the gate....That is not Nvidia's fault or Sander's fault...get over it and wait for AT, techReport, Xbitlabs, and other sites to review it. Dont take it so personally...
Its not a matter of your likes or anybody elses'. Sander accused all those who were invited (including Anandtech) as being biased or were sold out to ATI. There in lies the reason to be upset with Sander.

The numbers are a different matter altogether. Until Anandtech comes out with their own article, nobody knows. But we know that we cant believe those numbers from Sander.


So he was hurt for not being involved. I still dont think he would justify himself falsifying numbers to get back. If the reviewes come out and makes his look like night versus day he will have some explaining to do. Why waste your name for this? why take the chance of being sued and trust me you cannot always shield yourslef by saying someone else told me this....Doesn't always work and the gamble could have been financially costly.

I say we wait. I have always said that....I however dont think ATI fans should be called "stupid", "foolish" or whatever cause they see numbers from someone who has done credible reviews in the past and choose to belive them. Many of them have still said they will wait to see other reviews....

 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
0
0
Originally posted by: jasonja
Originally posted by: Rollo
Their reply is a JOKE.

QWould ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe?s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Errr, did they not invite the press for all their product launches (e.g. Rage, Radeon VIVO, 8500) that did lose? :roll:

Yeah I'm sure there was no release party for all their second/third best products from days gone by.

Can't EVER say anything good about ATI can you?

well hes bought pretty much all their top flight hardware so i think hes got alot of basis for his opinions, not to mention hes had alot NV's top hardware at the same time. so hes very elidgable to make comments about either side, and why theyre better than the other
 
Jun 14, 2003
10,442
0
0
Originally posted by: Duvie
Originally posted by: crazydingo
Originally posted by: Duvie
Heh. I like ATI. I would have gotten an ATI for my current machine if I didn't want to do the quadro mod. I think ATI video looks better. My opnion ofcourse but I think ATI fans in here were hurt from the get go about what appears to be disappointing numbers...nevermid the numbers can improve with more mature drivers....nevermind ATI neds to be a lot better to justify the cost out of the gate....That is not Nvidia's fault or Sander's fault...get over it and wait for AT, techReport, Xbitlabs, and other sites to review it. Dont take it so personally...
Its not a matter of your likes or anybody elses'. Sander accused all those who were invited (including Anandtech) as being biased or were sold out to ATI. There in lies the reason to be upset with Sander.

The numbers are a different matter altogether. Until Anandtech comes out with their own article, nobody knows. But we know that we cant believe those numbers from Sander.


So he was hurt for not being involved. I still dont think he would justify himself falsifying numbers to get back. If the reviewes come out and makes his look like night versus day he will have some explaining to do. Why waste your name for this? why take the chance of being sued and trust me you cannot always shield yourslef by saying someone else told me this....Doesn't always work and the gamble could have been financially costly.

I say we wait. I have always said that....I however dont think ATI fans should be called "stupid", "foolish" or whatever cause they see numbers from someone who has done credible reviews in the past and choose to belive them. Many of them have still said they will wait to see other reviews....

well he did just send scripts to some of his AIB mates, and they did the benchmarkin. he has no way to prove how real they are. so he maynot think hes false, (he cant even say) those guys that did the benching could of set him up for a big fall......who knows!
 
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