Anger toward God. Warranted?? Anybody else pissed at God right now???

[XxPrOdiGyxX]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Do you know what the ironic thing is? God actually prefers you and other atheists over me. I am not completely devoted and nor is my faith complete...so I am considered lukewarm because I have my doubts and reservations.
...

That is fucked up for you. I don't buy it, since I don't buy the whole god/religion thing. But for someone who does, it must be pretty insulting trying to get next to somebody and then they brush you off for someone that isn't even interested.

This is one of the unattractive things about religion. You're easily screwed at any juncture.

Meh, I take it for what it is. Anyway, I'll stay out of this thread now. Sorry if you misinterpreted my posts as trying to push my beliefs on you, but that was not the case.

I don't thing you were pushing your beliefs on me. It appeared though that you were pushing christian religious dogma on to someone else and I couldn't not say anything.

Damnit, last post. I was just trying to say not to blame God or some other entity. Death is a fact of life and for deaths or injustices caused by other people should be blamed on those people.

 

[waggy]

personally i don't think Religion itself is bad or wrong. it by itself does not cause people to go out and kill.

Now the Church itself i have questions about (mainly the people in charge). i tseem sthe bigger more powerfull it gets the more power/wealth/people it wants. wich in turn leads it to do evil things.


edit: of course every now and then you are going ot have a nutcase do things in the name of religion. but then i don't think religion is the cause but a excuse.

 

[XxPrOdiGyxX]

Originally posted by: waggy
personally i don't think Religion itself is bad or wrong. it by itself does not cause people to go out and kill.

Now the Church itself i have questions about (mainly the people in charge). i tseem sthe bigger more powerfull it gets the more power/wealth/people it wants. wich in turn leads it to do evil things.

 

[oddyager]

Originally posted by: waggy
personally i don't think Religion itself is bad or wrong. it by itself does not cause people to go out and kill.

Now the Church itself i have questions about (mainly the people in charge). i tseem sthe bigger more powerfull it gets the more power/wealth/people it wants. wich in turn leads it to do evil things.

Ya, because in the end its still run by and maintained by people and you know how incorruptible we are.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

you are under the misguided idea that all religion is good. it is not.

if i recall, in one of the first books of the bible is not one of gods first orders is for a man to sacrifice his son to prove his faith? wtf kind of god would request that of a follower?

oh, never mind it was just a test......in which case I have to ask wtf kind of god tests his followers faith?

Maybe the man was insane. Maybe he heard voices ?

Religion is about one thing, what people make of it, in your world all religion is good and there is no violence, there is no ill-will, there is no hatred there is no killing in the name of religion because your ideology does not permit that sort of thing.

In the majority of religions they do not promote the things you list. I'm still waiting for people to post text from the bible , Koran, Torah, that say to do mass killing.

The reality is this is untrue because religion is either an invention of man or is up to his sole discretion to interpret. There are "evil" people in the world, hence there will be evil interpretations of is believed to be divine word.

Of course there will be people who use religion as reason to do wrong. But to say all religion is wrong because some use it as an excuse is wrong. You are blaming the religion and not the person.

 

[MrWizzard]

Originally posted by: Jeff7
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer
It all stems from the gift of free choice. Everyone who believes gets pissed at God from time to time because as humans we want/expect the God we believe in to help us make sense of a complicated and often evil world. We go further and expect God to intervene and save his people from an evil world.

If there were incontrovertible proof through Deus ex Machina, there would be no free choice. I believe free choice is worth the sadness and grief of the human condition.

He did intervene, at least once, according to the Bible - he wiped out all of humanity, except for one family. (I can only assume that incest followed.)


God is all powerful.
Therefore, evil exists because God allows it to.
But hey, God also has his "plan," and maybe evil is part of it. This little girl getting killed must just be another beautiful example of God's perfect plan in action.

I came in here to get dumber, that did the job.

Seriously though religion threads on the net are so dumb, 99.9999~% of the time all you got is people thinking they know what they are talking about shouting at each other. It?s half comedy half pitiful.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Do you know what the ironic thing is? God actually prefers you and other atheists over me. I am not completely devoted and nor is my faith complete...so I am considered lukewarm because I have my doubts and reservations.
...

That is fucked up for you. I don't buy it, since I don't buy the whole god/religion thing. But for someone who does, it must be pretty insulting trying to get next to somebody and then they brush you off for someone that isn't even interested.

This is one of the unattractive things about religion. You're easily screwed at any juncture.

Meh, I take it for what it is. Anyway, I'll stay out of this thread now. Sorry if you misinterpreted my posts as trying to push my beliefs on you, but that was not the case.

I don't thing you were pushing your beliefs on me. It appeared though that you were pushing christian religious dogma on to someone else and I couldn't not say anything.

Damnit, last post. I was just trying to say not to blame God or some other entity. Death is a fact of life and for deaths or injustices caused by other people should be blamed on those people.

I may not be able to enlighten you about religion - trying would be rude of me since you're not trying to push yours onto me - but I might be able to enlighten you about damnit. This is the way I used to spell it until I saw it spelled differently on these forums. I thought it was silly but happened to look it up. And to my surprise it's spelled dammit, dammit.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5519704&page=1


If, when we are hit w/ tragedy, we shake our fist to the sky, or shout "why", or (enter method of dealing with tragedy here).......that presumes, anger toward God, questioning God, etc.

But, then that assumes God has the answer, right?? Why did the little girl die?? (We're asking the question, so philosophically, God has the answer).

Well, I'll go one further...... Why did the little girl have to die the kind of horrible death that finds her being crushed underneath a car and by her older brother, no less???

I think that's where my problem lies.

Why will some child somewhere in this world tonight, be raped, beaten, tortured and ultimately killed with no hope of anyone finding them until they are found dead (if ever) by someone looking???

:|

It all stems from the gift of free choice. Everyone who believes gets pissed at God from time to time because as humans we want/expect the God we believe in to help us make sense of a complicated and often evil world. We go further and expect God to intervene and save his people from an evil world.

If there were incontrovertible proof through Deus ex Machina, there would be no free choice. I believe free choice is worth the sadness and grief of the human condition.

this pretty much sums it up.

 

[Gamingphreek]

I apologize, but I haven't read the entire thread. In spite of this, I hope my views on this matter do something positive for this discussion.

First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. September 11 for instance - A great tragedy, but through that... has anyone ever seen a nation so unified and so compassionate? I haven't.

My best friend of 9 years and I recently started dating. Every day that I prayed I said, "God our relationship strays from you, or if this isn't the time/person you want me to be with, ending it will never pull me from you". 1 week ago my relationship (Admittedly only 1 month) ended. I spent about a day and a half moping around, but the more I thought and prayed about it, the more I could find it in my heart to turn to the Lord and look at what he was trying to teach me at that moment in my life. It was one of the hardest couple days (Yes you cold say that I am spoiled) emotionally that I had to go through, but I turned to the Lord and I have no doubt that I have learned a lot from this and grown as a brother in Christ and as a person.

Steven Curtis Chapman is one of the most devoted fathers and disciples of the Lord - right now you are not honoring what he asked of people. He asked them, if I remember right, not to turn away from the Lord and ask why during all this, but turn towards him and embrace him with your fears and anxieties and hardships.

-Kevin

(Steven Curtis Chapman - Cinderella - Not only is this one of my aforementioned best friend and I's song, but many also believe this is a song that is about that daughter - It is really a beautiful song)

 

[OCGuy]

Just let me know when you guys hop on the spaceship with Tom Cruise so I can get on too....I dont want to be left here.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
Everyone dies... Sorry it happened to your family members. Why blame the evils of man, who has free will, on God? If God did everything and did not allow bad things to happen and life is perfect then we would already be in heaven...Please.

Sure everyone dies. But some die in their sleep after 70 or 80 years of life. Others are beaten, raped, tortured, stabbed, shot, scarred, burned, hung, drowned, cannibalized, blown up, decapitated, eviscerated, flayed, dismembered, and occassionally squashed.

People don't get mad at god when their parents die at 80. They get mad at god when their 5 year old daughter gets kidnapped, raped, tortured, strangled and dumped in a ditch.

God is [purportedly] all powerful, all knowing, all merciful, yet he allows this to go on. You argue "free will" on one hand while endorsing God's good will on the other. You can't have both. Either all evil is man's fault and all good is a consequence of man's benevolence, OR god is playing a role. Because if god ever intervenes, even once, then it means his decision to not intervene in all the other travesties is his decision, and the suffering his fault.

This isn't much of a conundrum for me or a lot of other people because we realize we can't give some entity credit for all the good things in our lives while blaming all the bad things on man. Unfortunately this message hasn't reached the NFL yet.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I apologize, but I haven't read the entire thread. In spite of this, I hope my views on this matter do something positive for this discussion.

First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. September 11 for instance - A great tragedy, but through that... has anyone ever seen a nation so unified and so compassionate? I haven't.
...

So the hundreds of thousands of iraqi deaths were mercy killings?

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I apologize, but I haven't read the entire thread. In spite of this, I hope my views on this matter do something positive for this discussion.

First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. September 11 for instance - A great tragedy, but through that... has anyone ever seen a nation so unified and so compassionate? I haven't.
...

So the hundreds of thousands of iraqi deaths were mercy killings?

Congratulations on the most general statement in the universe...

Care to elaborate on what you mean, because I certainly don't know what you are referring to.

 

[pcslookout]

Originally posted by: Kalvin00

Originally posted by: effowe
How can you be pissed at something that doesn't exist

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

So many people always want to see evident for stuff if it exists and they should be the same way with God then. Though I don't need to see it to believe it though. I don't believe in god though. I believe in a god but not god per say.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I apologize, but I haven't read the entire thread. In spite of this, I hope my views on this matter do something positive for this discussion.

First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. September 11 for instance - A great tragedy, but through that... has anyone ever seen a nation so unified and so compassionate? I haven't.
...

So the hundreds of thousands of iraqi deaths were mercy killings?

Congratulations on the most general statement in the universe...

Care to elaborate on what you mean, because I certainly don't know what you are referring to.

Citizens of the u.s. were very compassionate to other citizens after 9/11. The u.s hasn't been very compassionate in attacking and killing many iraqis. I've even heard that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. To follow your logic, god caused the u.s. to attach iraq. You can't just attribute the warm and fuzzy stuff - everything has to be taken into account.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I apologize, but I haven't read the entire thread. In spite of this, I hope my views on this matter do something positive for this discussion.

First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. September 11 for instance - A great tragedy, but through that... has anyone ever seen a nation so unified and so compassionate? I haven't.
...

So the hundreds of thousands of iraqi deaths were mercy killings?

Congratulations on the most general statement in the universe...

Care to elaborate on what you mean, because I certainly don't know what you are referring to.

Citizens of the u.s. were very compassionate to other citizens after 9/11. The u.s hasn't been very compassionate in attacking and killing many iraqis. I've even heard that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. To follow your logic, god caused the u.s. to attach iraq. You can't just attribute the warm and fuzzy stuff - everything has to be taken into account.

Well you are only taking part of the argument.

Did the US go to Iraq and target innocent civilians and start killing in cold vengeance? Nope and that is indisputable.

We went over to find the people that were responsible (I don't want to get into any other possible alternate motives and turn this political) and bring them to justice.

Out of 9/11 so many positive things have happened that may not have happened otherwise. Afghanistan and Iraq governments that were corrupt (each in their own way) were taken down. Security was tightened in the country in ways we never thought were vulnerable.

Yes negative events occurred after 9/11 as well, but what positives happened from those?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I apologize, but I haven't read the entire thread. In spite of this, I hope my views on this matter do something positive for this discussion.

First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. September 11 for instance - A great tragedy, but through that... has anyone ever seen a nation so unified and so compassionate? I haven't.
...

So the hundreds of thousands of iraqi deaths were mercy killings?

Congratulations on the most general statement in the universe...

Care to elaborate on what you mean, because I certainly don't know what you are referring to.

Citizens of the u.s. were very compassionate to other citizens after 9/11. The u.s hasn't been very compassionate in attacking and killing many iraqis. I've even heard that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. To follow your logic, god caused the u.s. to attach iraq. You can't just attribute the warm and fuzzy stuff - everything has to be taken into account.

Well you are only taking part of the argument.

Did the US go to Iraq and target innocent civilians and start killing in cold vengeance? Nope and that is indisputable.

We went over to find the people that were responsible (I don't want to get into any other possible alternate motives and turn this political) and bring them to justice.

Out of 9/11 so many positive things have happened that may not have happened otherwise. Afghanistan and Iraq governments that were corrupt (each in their own way) were taken down. Security was tightened in the country in ways we never thought were vulnerable.

Yes negative events occurred after 9/11 as well, but what positives happened from those?

Wow you just have zero clue about what goes on.....

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I apologize, but I haven't read the entire thread. In spite of this, I hope my views on this matter do something positive for this discussion.

First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. September 11 for instance - A great tragedy, but through that... has anyone ever seen a nation so unified and so compassionate? I haven't.
...

So the hundreds of thousands of iraqi deaths were mercy killings?

Congratulations on the most general statement in the universe...

Care to elaborate on what you mean, because I certainly don't know what you are referring to.

Citizens of the u.s. were very compassionate to other citizens after 9/11. The u.s hasn't been very compassionate in attacking and killing many iraqis. I've even heard that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. To follow your logic, god caused the u.s. to attach iraq. You can't just attribute the warm and fuzzy stuff - everything has to be taken into account.

Well you are only taking part of the argument.

Did the US go to Iraq and target innocent civilians and start killing in cold vengeance? Nope and that is indisputable.

We went over to find the people that were responsible (I don't want to get into any other possible alternate motives and turn this political) and bring them to justice.

Out of 9/11 so many positive things have happened that may not have happened otherwise. Afghanistan and Iraq governments that were corrupt (each in their own way) were taken down. Security was tightened in the country in ways we never thought were vulnerable.

Yes negative events occurred after 9/11 as well, but what positives happened from those?

Wow you just have zero clue about what goes on.....

I haven't insulted a single person here - why do you feel the need to call me clueless? Instead of insulting, why can you not present a valid counter argument?

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. ...

Are your parents religious? Why are you? Have you always been this fervent about it?

Do any of the christian church teachings strike you as inconsistent? If so, how do you reconcile this?

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I apologize, but I haven't read the entire thread. In spite of this, I hope my views on this matter do something positive for this discussion.

First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. September 11 for instance - A great tragedy, but through that... has anyone ever seen a nation so unified and so compassionate? I haven't.
...

So the hundreds of thousands of iraqi deaths were mercy killings?

Congratulations on the most general statement in the universe...

Care to elaborate on what you mean, because I certainly don't know what you are referring to.

Citizens of the u.s. were very compassionate to other citizens after 9/11. The u.s hasn't been very compassionate in attacking and killing many iraqis. I've even heard that iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. To follow your logic, god caused the u.s. to attach iraq. You can't just attribute the warm and fuzzy stuff - everything has to be taken into account.

Well you are only taking part of the argument.

Did the US go to Iraq and target innocent civilians and start killing in cold vengeance? Nope and that is indisputable.

We went over to find the people that were responsible (I don't want to get into any other possible alternate motives and turn this political) and bring them to justice.

Out of 9/11 so many positive things have happened that may not have happened otherwise. Afghanistan and Iraq governments that were corrupt (each in their own way) were taken down. Security was tightened in the country in ways we never thought were vulnerable.

Yes negative events occurred after 9/11 as well, but what positives happened from those?

Wow you just have zero clue about what goes on.....

I haven't insulted a single person here - why do you feel the need to call me clueless? Instead of insulting, why can you not present a valid counter argument?

It seems like you only get your news from the Yahoo! homepage, mainstream network news, and whatever your church tells you. For people like that, there is no help.

 

[DainBramaged]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
http://www.abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=5519704&page=1


If, when we are hit w/ tragedy, we shake our fist to the sky, or shout "why", or (enter method of dealing with tragedy here).......that presumes, anger toward God, questioning God, etc.

But, then that assumes God has the answer, right?? Why did the little girl die?? (We're asking the question, so philosophically, God has the answer).

Well, I'll go one further...... Why did the little girl have to die the kind of horrible death that finds her being crushed underneath a car and by her older brother, no less???

I think that's where my problem lies.

Why will some child somewhere in this world tonight, be raped, beaten, tortured and ultimately killed with no hope of anyone finding them until they are found dead (if ever) by someone looking???

:|

It all stems from the gift of free choice. Everyone who believes gets pissed at God from time to time because as humans we want/expect the God we believe in to help us make sense of a complicated and often evil world. We go further and expect God to intervene and save his people from an evil world.

If there were incontrovertible proof through Deus ex Machina, there would be no free choice. I believe free choice is worth the sadness and grief of the human condition.

:thumbsup:

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
First off, God does not take away hard times and trials. God is there with you through them - it is human's inability to see it (Yea, it is hard). The Devil causes the hardships in this world, THROUGH those hardships, God works. ...

Are your parents religious? Why are you? Have you always been this fervent about it?

Do any of the christian church teachings strike you as inconsistent? If so, how do you reconcile this?

Well basically, it seems like you are asking for my testimony as to why I believe what I believe, so I apologize for the length and try to abbreviate it as much as possible, but this should answer all those questions.

Both of my parents are religious but, in my mind, not to the extent that I am (Not to say that I am any better than anyone else). My Dad was raised Lutheran and my Mom was raised Catholic - when they married they both went to Lutheran.

I was raised Lutheran and was confirmed (age 14 - I'm 20 now) in the Lutheran church - In other words I made public profession that I believed and gave my life to Christ. Looking back on it, as I talked with my Youth Minister about it a couple weeks back - I wasn't ready and shouldn't have.

At that time, yes, I did believe in Christ but I couldn't fathom what all that was and I couldn't give my life to him. I was young and immature and simply couldn't comprehend it. Essentially I gave part of my heart to God, but the immature part still wanted to be the popular, goofy, class clown kid or that main character on TV that never lets emotions govern anything in his life (aka the Tough Guy).

I went to College thinking that, now that Youth Group was over, it was the end of the road - God gave a firm "No". 2 people who would later become amazing friends met me on the curve and asked if they could help me move in. Towards the end they said they were from InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. I sporadically, the first semester, attended Small Group and what not, but never got really involved.

I hung out with some High School friends and I went to 2 parties. I then determined that I didn't want to drink and that the "dancing" that occurs was so close to sex that I didn't want to do that either. After those 2 parties, Christmas Break occurred and I prayed and through that made a vow to become involved in InterVarsity.

Fast forward to now, the beginning of my Junior year in College, I have completely given my life to Christ. The past 1.5 years have been the most amazing years of my life and I cannot believe how blessed I am to have a God that stuck with me the first semester and showed me what life could be like.

Right now, I currently lead a Small Group with InterVarsity, I set up and run the Audio Equipment and I have made 2 of the best friends I could have ever asked for.

-----------------

As for inconsistencies, you would have to pull some in question out of Christian teachings - I apologize, I just don't know what inconsistencies you are referring to or what passage you are struggling with.

It seems like you only get your news from the Yahoo! homepage, mainstream network news, and whatever your church tells you. For people like that, there is no help.

Once again, I have taken the time to respond to you, someone who differs from my opinion, yet you can't show me the same courtesy. I would be more than happy to discuss whatever you are referring to with you, but you aren't giving me anything to discuss.

-Kevin

 

[soonerproud]

Originally posted by: Modelworks


In the majority of religions they do not promote the things you list. I'm still waiting for people to post text from the bible , Koran, Torah, that say to do mass killing.

You really did not want to go there.

Mass Killings And Cruelties Ordered, Committed, Approved By God

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: soonerproud

Originally posted by: Modelworks


In the majority of religions they do not promote the things you list. I'm still waiting for people to post text from the bible , Koran, Torah, that say to do mass killing.

You really did not want to go there.

Mass Killings And Cruelties Ordered, Committed, Approved By God

All of those are taken way out of context in each situation. It would pull this thread way off track to argue over that entire text, so if you want to discuss it further, I would be more than happy to talk over PM or other.

 

[XxPrOdiGyxX]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: XxPrOdiGyxX
Everyone dies... Sorry it happened to your family members. Why blame the evils of man, who has free will, on God? If God did everything and did not allow bad things to happen and life is perfect then we would already be in heaven...Please.

Sure everyone dies. But some die in their sleep after 70 or 80 years of life. Others are beaten, raped, tortured, stabbed, shot, scarred, burned, hung, drowned, cannibalized, blown up, decapitated, eviscerated, flayed, dismembered, and occassionally squashed.

People don't get mad at god when their parents die at 80. They get mad at god when their 5 year old daughter gets kidnapped, raped, tortured, strangled and dumped in a ditch.

God is [purportedly] all powerful, all knowing, all merciful, yet he allows this to go on. You argue "free will" on one hand while endorsing God's good will on the other. You can't have both. Either all evil is man's fault and all good is a consequence of man's benevolence, OR god is playing a role. Because if god ever intervenes, even once, then it means his decision to not intervene in all the other travesties is his decision, and the suffering his fault.

This isn't much of a conundrum for me or a lot of other people because we realize we can't give some entity credit for all the good things in our lives while blaming all the bad things on man. Unfortunately this message hasn't reached the NFL yet.

Man I guess I can't stay out of this thread. Anyway, I actually never talked about free will and never talked about interventions from God. All I know is, whether you believe in God or don't you should believe in personal responsibility and holding people accountable for their actions. I feel like, too often, people try to rationalize irrational things by attributing it to some supernatural power. Even though I believe in a God (but not necessarily religious) I will never talk about what God intends to do or speak about some grand master plan He might have in place because I don't know. Anyone, that believes in God, that claims to know or have an idea of what God may or may not do is a fallacy. I am always angered by Christians who condemn other people based on how they think God will judge those people. It is one of the most arrogant things anyone can do and it angers me that the feel like they know so much about God and can predict how he will judge those people. I get mad at that because they should be taught that God is the ultimate judge and for them to claim what God will or will not do is, what I consider, a sin of pride.