Another Federal Judge rules Obamacare unconstitutional

Page 7 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
I believe it would fail as well in the US Supreme Court. You can't make people buy insurance. You can't make a person buy anything unless they want to or need to utilize some other benefit. Obama was a fool to pass this nonsense.

Yeah...you can't make people buy something.....like auto insurance, or homeowner's insurance, or flood insurance if their home is in a designated flood plane or...

I think that you get the picture.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Yeah...you can't make people buy something.....like auto insurance, or homeowner's insurance, or flood insurance if their home is in a designated flood plane or...

I think that you get the picture.
While many (most?) states require auto insurance, I'm not aware of any that require homeowner's or flood insurance. Those are usually required by your mortgage company, as a condition for granting the loan. Similarly, banks and finance companies will generally require auto insurance with specific levels of coverage for car loans, even if the state does not.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Yeah...you can't make people buy something.....like auto insurance, or homeowner's insurance, or flood insurance if their home is in a designated flood plane or...

I think that you get the picture.

You don't have to buy any of those if you ride a bike, or rent, but then again,
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
And thery accuse "liberal" judges of being activists.

Upholding the Constitution isn't activist judges. Ruling against it is which is a staple of liberal judges - going in direct conflict against the Constitution. That is the definition of "activist judge". You can't be an activist judge for giving an Constitutional ruling, only when you rule against it.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Well I don't think the goal of our public policy should be to bankrupt the country. So tough cookies for all the people who can't pay for medical insurance?

Yep, tough cookies, they'll just have to pay the individual mandate penalty
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
Exactly. The mandate no more solves the problem of health insurance than a law requiring people to buy housing would solve homelessness.

Brilliant and yet simple enough for stupid people to understand... hopefully.

This comment should have ended the thread.
 

wetech

Senior member
Jul 16, 2002
871
6
81
Except it's a false analogy. But it passes for brilliant thinking on the right.

It's not thinking from the right. It's a quote from Obama, cited on page 78 of the judge Vinson's decision:

"I note that in 2008, then-Senator Obama supported a health care reform proposal that did not include an individual mandate because he was at that time strongly opposed to the idea, stating that 'if a mandate was the solution, we can try that to solve homelessness by mandating everybody to buy a house,'"
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
687
126
It's not thinking from the right. It's a quote from Obama, cited on page 78 of the judge Vinson's decision:

"I note that in 2008, then-Senator Obama supported a health care reform proposal that did not include an individual mandate because he was at that time strongly opposed to the idea, stating that 'if a mandate was the solution, we can try that to solve homelessness by mandating everybody to buy a house,'"

Ouch. senseamp owned, yet again. LOL!
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
It just shows how much Democrats gave to try to compromise with Republicans. It was originally a Republican idea.

Wow. Senseamp has been totally destroyed in 3 threads today alone. Is that a record for libOwnage?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Wow. Senseamp has been totally destroyed in 3 threads today alone. Is that a record for libOwnage?

Don't worry, he'll either ignore or find some apologist opinion somewere and use it. He believes in government control by any means, so you have to take what he says with a grain of salt. No, let me clarify that. He believes in leftist control.

I want neither left or right using government sticking it's nose in except in a very limited sense, and failing to think through policy and consequences is not acceptable. It's not like we can fire government.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
You pay for K-12 education, why not healthcare?

Do you really think someone should be exploiting someone's bad luck, e.g medical illness.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
You pay for K-12 education, why not healthcare?

IMO:

1) Most K-12 education funding is (should be) through local/state taxes.
2) Nature of the systems doesn't allow for direct comparison. Education costs can be reasonably extrapolated over the education career of the student. Health insurance involves many variables, and is exponentially more complicated in determining how much somebody is going to cost/what might happen over the entire life of the individual.
3) Most comparisons of public education vs private education show that private education is of higher quality and at a lower cost-per-student in many cases.

Do you really think someone should be exploiting someone's bad luck, e.g medical illness.

1) Who is exploiting who? Fraud and abuse aside, and acknowledging that some reasonable reforms are needed in our current system, where is the exploitation?
2) Do you think someone should have to pay for someone else's bad luck? What about pay for some else's bad decisions?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
It's not thinking from the right. It's a quote from Obama, cited on page 78 of the judge Vinson's decision:

"I note that in 2008, then-Senator Obama supported a health care reform proposal that did not include an individual mandate because he was at that time strongly opposed to the idea, stating that 'if a mandate was the solution, we can try that to solve homelessness by mandating everybody to buy a house,'"

Obama making a false analogy doesn't make it any less false, but nice try.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Don't worry, he'll either ignore or find some apologist opinion somewere and use it. He believes in government control by any means, so you have to take what he says with a grain of salt. No, let me clarify that. He believes in leftist control.

I want neither left or right using government sticking it's nose in except in a very limited sense, and failing to think through policy and consequences is not acceptable. It's not like we can fire government.

Maybe you three should get a room for your senseamp "ownage" circle-jerk.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
PeshakJang said:
IMO:
1) Most K-12 education funding is (should be) through local/state taxes.
2) Nature of the systems doesn't allow for direct comparison. Education costs can be reasonably extrapolated over the education career of the student. Health insurance involves many variables, and is exponentially more complicated in determining how much somebody is going to cost/what might happen over the entire life of the individual.
3) Most comparisons of public education vs private education show that private education is of higher quality and at a lower cost-per-student in many cases.

1 - Not sure why you brought that up, though there a plenty of states that get support through the federal government other than k-12. Even if there schools needed money, they should get it.

2 - Why? A basic education is, for all intents and purposes a human right. I see no difference why healthcare should be any different at all.

3 - Not sure why you brought this up either.

PeshakJang said:
1) Who is exploiting who? Fraud and abuse aside, and acknowledging that some reasonable reforms are needed in our current system, where is the exploitation?
2) Do you think someone should have to pay for someone else's bad luck? What about pay for some else's bad decisions?

1 - Aside from the absolute costs of healthcare, there is abuse. I had an awful back as a child and my parents barley made ends meet as our premiums and deductibles were extraordinarily high not because a certain healthcare CEO wanted a yacht, because he wanted a bigger one.

2 - Why should I have to pay for some stupid kids education that's not a member of my family? Why should a few hundred dollars of my taxes pay for someone's Medicare or retirement? If they're not smart enough to plan for retirement, that's not my problem. Right?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Maybe you three should get a room for your senseamp "ownage" circle-jerk.

It's not that you were mistaken, but when almost any price is worth getting this passed, one wonders what liberties are taken with the truth. It's hard to know what's an error and what's a fib.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
2 - Why? A basic education is, for all intents and purposes a human right. I see no difference why healthcare should be any different at all.

I'm not so liberal with the term "right". Our basic human rights are outlined in the Bill of Rights, as being self-evident. Being guaranteed basic education is not an inherent human right.

Rights are things the government cannot take away, not things that the government must give you. I have a right to bear arms, but I'm not guaranteed a firearm from the government.

1 - Aside from the absolute costs of healthcare, there is abuse. I had an awful back as a child and my parents barley made ends meet as our premiums and deductibles were extraordinarily high not because a certain healthcare CEO wanted a yacht, because he wanted a bigger one.

Did that CEO call you up and tell you that? What kind of yacht was he getting?

2 - Why should I have to pay for some stupid kids education that's not a member of my family?

If it remained a local issue, you'd be able to move somewhere that didn't force you to. Again though, education expenses and public schools can't be directly compared to heath insurance, since it is a shared resource with relatively fixed costs, not a shared risk with variable, unequally distributed costs.

Why should a few hundred dollars of my taxes pay for someone's Medicare or retirement? If they're not smart enough to plan for retirement, that's not my problem. Right?

Right. I agree.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
-snip-
To claim the law is unconstitutional is claiming the federal government doesn't have the authority to levy a new tax.

That statement requires the assumption that this fee meets the qualifications to be correctly defined as a "tax". A tax is not just something that the federal government charges for. The term 'tax', and the types of taxes, are highly defined in law. (I think it interesting to note that the Obama Admin swore up and down that this wasn't a tax, but because it may now suit their agends they have flip-flopped on that.)

I don't think it's clear cut that this is indeed a tax.

I am unable to find any instances anywhere (other countries) where a charge like this for not doing something, or not having something meets the definition of being a tax.

We have:

Income tax. This is a tax measured on (net) income. Doesn't seem to meet this definition.

Property Tax. Measured on FMV of prop. Doesn't meet this.

Sales Tax. A one time tax on FMV. Nope.

Wealth Tax. A recurring tax based upon FMV. Nope

Inheretence Tax. Nope

Excise Tax. A tax upon a measurable quantity. Don't think so.

Transfer Tax. No, nothing's been transfered.

Cap Gains Tax. Nope.

I've looked a bit at taxes that other countries, and many have far more types than we do. But this doesn't seem to fit into any of those categories, either.

So, yes the Constitution gives Congress the power to levy taxes, but if this payment doesn't meet the definition of being a 'tax' that is irrelevent.
------------------------

Can the federal government somehow create "new types of taxes? if/when they feel like it, or must they be constrained to levying taxes as that term has been construed for hundreds of years?

I surely hope it's the latter. If they are allowed to willy-nilly slap the label of "tax" on something (or in this case nothing) and start charging money we will see history's largest floodgate open on government's ability to confiscate private property. There will be no limits and a huge hole will have been blown through the Constitution.

IMO, to support something like for the politically expediency of a single issue is idiocy.

This needs to be litigated at the highest level, and has potential ramifications far beyond HC.

Fern
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,581
2,815
136
There can be a good argument for a conclusion that agrees with radical rightists, and yet they make a bad argument for the same conclusion.

Let's say you think Roe v. Wade is unconstitutional for one set of reasons - if a radical Justice rules it's unconstitutional because it 'violates the Christian faith this nation is founded on', it doesn't make his argument any less a radical subversion of the separation of Church and State, just because you have a far better argument.

What I'm saying is to keep separate the issues in the constitutionality of this issue, and the politics of the Justices who might rule for radical ideological agendas.

If a mainstream Justice and one of the four radical right-wing Justices both rule this is unconstitutional, the mainstream Justice will likely have better reasons.

It's possible to have the right vote for the wrong reasons.

In your response, you took my statement, the hypothetical that 'if the two both vote no, the mainstream will have better reasons', and you simply changed my assumptions - you put a better argument in the mouth of the right-wing justice as if they'll make it for no apparent reason assuming they will do so as if the fact a better argument exists means they'll use that one and not their radical ideology they've used for years, you switch the mainstream Justice from a no to a yes vote.

You seemed to do what I said not to, mixing up the issue - your your own arguments of what's right - with the politics of the Justices, putting your words in their mouths.

It's easy to do that - which is why I raised the issue how easy it is to mix them up.

Ha, it's funny because I thought that's what you were doing right after you said not to, so I was just trying to point out an alternative scenario. Seems like we're both kinda thinking the same thing and just getting our points crossed up a bit.

I was reading something online, I think CNN.com, yesterday or the day before and the author made a good (and similar) point. He basically said 'If the SC affirms or overturns on partisan lines the population will be stuck with the result and the partisan debate will continue. The only way to get closure on this will be for the SC to affirm or overturn with as close to a consensus as possible.'
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
We already decided that we are going to have universal health care in this country when we required emergency rooms to treat every comer, regardless of ability to pay. Now we just gotta decide if we are going to have universal multi-payer or universal single-payer system. Universal multi-payer only works with the individual mandate. So go ahead, get a Republican court or Republican congress to kill that idea. Then we'll talk about where we go next.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |