Another Malaysian airplane down

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cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
Good, so you actually know what makes these things so complicated? If operating it is simply pushing X number of buttons in a specific unchanging order then training by someone who can write down that sequence would take a few days at most. If the order changes depending on circumstances, then yeah, I can see it being a bit more complicated, but like I said, if it doesn't require fine motor skills, 6 months seems like bullshit.

Another item that is also overlooked in the training sequence is that the operators are also expected to perform preventive and rudimentary field maintenance on the equipment itself.

Separate crews are not assigned when in the field.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Another item that is also overlooked in the training sequence is that the operators are also expected to perform preventive and rudimentary field maintenance on the equipment itself.

Separate crews are not assigned when in the field.

Russians like to make simple equipment that can be maintained by a bear with an axe...
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,175
30,634
136
Another item that is also overlooked in the training sequence is that the operators are also expected to perform preventive and rudimentary field maintenance on the equipment itself.

Separate crews are not assigned when in the field.
Okay, but they had the system for what? 3 months? Maintenance may be a future problem but the thing isn't going to fall into disrepair in 3 months.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
Another item that is also overlooked in the training sequence is that the operators are also expected to perform preventive and rudimentary field maintenance on the equipment itself.

Separate crews are not assigned when in the field.
Okay, but they had the system for what? 3 months? Maintenance may be a future problem but the thing isn't going to fall into disrepair in 3 months.
I have no knowledge of how the Soviets (which is what they were at my time :$) planned the training curriculum.

There was a complete lack of authorized independent thinking and thinking outside the box.

If a manual said to flip a switch and go outside to perform a visual check; the operator was expected to do so. They were not to rely on someone outside saying that the expected result happened.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Okay, but they had the system for what? 3 months? Maintenance may be a future problem but the thing isn't going to fall into disrepair in 3 months.
It's not getting the oil changed on a car, dude. Preventive field maintenance on such equipment is carried out daily where practical and certainly weekly.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
It's now been reported the the mobile phones of some the dead are being answered when dialed. Not sure why anyone would be dialing the phones of dead people though. Not much in the way of details but the phone companies are shutting off the accounts immediately.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/07/mh17_victims_mobile_phones_ans.php

If someone was going to take a trip and did not check in; people that would be concerned would continue to try to ccontact all to ensure that the "missing" person is OK. tTose that care become frantic.

Back in '82 when Air Florida went for a dip , I was also on a 737 leaving DC the same time to Fayetteville, via Charlotte. My flight was delayed in Charlotte and I did not check in at home until about 4 hours later. My wife was frantic; the TV news were showing a generic 737 and she knew that was the type of plane that I was always on. She spent the time calling the hotel and airport rental counter to find out where I was. Same concept, trying to track down a person that is missing.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
It's now been reported the the mobile phones of some the dead are being answered when dialed. Not sure why anyone would be dialing the phones of dead people though. Not much in the way of details but the phone companies are shutting off the accounts immediately.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/07/mh17_victims_mobile_phones_ans.php

It's not surprising, given that there's footage of the Russkies looting the corpses and luggage.

Well, it is surprising that these phones survived a violent airplane crash.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,683
5,416
136
What would have happened if the main part of the passengers had been US citizens?
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
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If someone was going to take a trip and did not check in; people that would be concerned would continue to try to ccontact all to ensure that the "missing" person is OK. tTose that care become frantic.

Back in '82 when Air Florida went for a dip , I was also on a 737 leaving DC the same time to Fayetteville, via Charlotte. My flight was delayed in Charlotte and I did not check in at home until about 4 hours later. My wife was frantic; the TV news were showing a generic 737 and she knew that was the type of plane that I was always on. She spent the time calling the hotel and airport rental counter to find out where I was. Same concept, trying to track down a person that is missing.

Another reason occurred to me. Someone could be so shattered by the death of a loved one that they phone the number to hear the voice message. I know it's a common trope in the movies but it's one that makes sense and I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like that. It fits with the people's reactions as reported.

For whatever reason, it's just heartrendingly sad.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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What would have happened if the main part of the passengers had been US citizens?

Either the Republicans would be screaming about Obama not sending in the troops immediately or, the Republicans would be screaming about Obama sending in the troops too soon.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
What would have happened if the main part of the passengers had been US citizens?

Nothing, really.

There would be a lot more outrage from the US. But there's nothing the US can do. Our trade links with Russia are too small to matter--Europe's trade with Russia is over an order of magnitude more. Only their sanctions can have any bite.

We can't intervene militarily (not worth WW3), and our trade with Russia is too little to matter. So in many ways, it'd be worse--it would severely strain US-EU relations.

The most impactful scenario would've been if the Russkies had shot down a plane full of Chinese. Pissing off their one friend left in the world would've hurt Putin a lot more than annoying the people who already hate Putin.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Heard on the radio this morning that the two Ukrainian fighters downed yesterday were downed by missiles launched from Russia. Coming so closely after this tragedy, I can only suspect that the Malaysian airliner might also have been downed by Russia. At the very least, Russia is willing to openly be an aggressor nation in the attempt to annex Ukraine.

At this point I'm beginning to suspect this may be where to draw the line militarily. If Russia is determined to fight World War III, I'd prefer it to be before it has the industrial capabilities of Ukraine, Poland, and the Czech Republic back under its control. Europe really needs to get cracking on alternative energy, because by winter it may well be a case of facing a widespread shooting war or facing annexation piecemeal into the new Soviet Union/New Russian Empire. Remember, Russia doesn't have to be stronger militarily if the West refuses to fight.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Heard on the radio this morning that the two Ukrainian fighters downed yesterday were downed by missiles launched from Russia. Coming so closely after this tragedy, I can only suspect that the Malaysian airliner might also have been downed by Russia. At the very least, Russia is willing to openly be an aggressor nation in the attempt to annex Ukraine.

At this point I'm beginning to suspect this may be where to draw the line militarily. If Russia is determined to fight World War III, I'd prefer it to be before it has the industrial capabilities of Ukraine, Poland, and the Czech Republic back under its control. Europe really needs to get cracking on alternative energy, because by winter it may well be a case of facing a widespread shooting war or facing annexation piecemeal into the new Soviet Union/New Russian Empire. Remember, Russia doesn't have to be stronger militarily if the West refuses to fight.

Make sure to bring warm socks.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,126
37,410
136
What would have happened if the main part of the passengers had been US citizens?

Most likely significant economic retaliation. We don't do a lot of trade with Russia compared to other countries but the US Treasury can cause them significant pain if required.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
World wars don't always go as intended, so bring warm socks.
That's true, and a world war is near the most horrendous thing possible. But it's not THE most horrendous thing possible. Watching Europe slip piecemeal under Putin's brand of totalitarianism would in my mind be worse than even a world war.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,126
37,410
136
That's true, and a world war is near the most horrendous thing possible. But it's not THE most horrendous thing possible. Watching Europe slip piecemeal under Putin's brand of totalitarianism would in my mind be worse than even a world war.

That's a bit hyperbolic. All he can really do is nibble at the edges of non-NATO nations. Yea he's a big old prick for doing it but our options are limited as are his prospects for further expansion. I'll settle for slowly strangling their economy by moving the EU away from Russian energy imports and limiting access to capital markets.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
That's true, and a world war is near the most horrendous thing possible. But it's not THE most horrendous thing possible. Watching Europe slip piecemeal under Putin's brand of totalitarianism would in my mind be worse than even a world war.

I am just telling you, no one has ever attacked Russia and regretted packing too many warm socks.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
That's a bit hyperbolic. All he can really do is nibble at the edges of non-NATO nations. Yea he's a big old prick for doing it but our options are limited as are his prospects for further expansion. I'll settle for slowly strangling their economy by moving the EU away from Russian energy imports and limiting access to capital markets.

EU won't settle for it though, because of China.
Cutting off Russia not only cuts Europe off from Russian natural resources, but it also gives China monopoly buyer pricing power for those resources. So European input costs will go up while Chinese will go down. So on top of high labor costs, Europeans will be saddled with higher commodity input costs, and become economically noncompetitive vs China. EU has a 10.5% unemployment as is, add to that another competitive disadvantage, add to that competition from millions of unemployed Ukrainians from industries that rely on cheap Russian gas, and it's not a pretty picture.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,126
37,410
136
EU won't settle for it though, because of China.
Cutting off Russia not only cuts Europe off from Russian natural resources, but it also gives China monopoly buyer pricing power for those resources. So European input costs will go up while Chinese will go down. So on top of high labor costs, Europeans will be saddled with higher commodity input costs, and become economically noncompetitive vs China. EU has a 10.5% unemployment as is, add to that another competitive disadvantage, add to that competition from millions of unemployed Ukrainians from industries that rely on cheap Russian gas, and it's not a pretty picture.

What part of "slowly" was not clear? I didn't say that the EU should run out and turn the valves off right now. A concerted long term program to realign their energy imports and domestic production is in their long term interest anyway.

Russia needs vast amounts of foreign investment to even keep with their current production. Absent that there won't be nearly as much resource to deliver to anyone...let alone to the Chinese for which the infrastructure doesn't exist to do so.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
What part of "slowly" was not clear? I didn't say that the EU should run out and turn the valves off right now. A concerted long term program to realign their energy imports and domestic production is in their long term interest anyway.

Russia needs vast amounts of foreign investment to even keep with their current production. Absent that there won't be nearly as much resource to deliver to anyone...let alone to the Chinese for which the infrastructure doesn't exist to do so.

Chinese have a lot of money to invest.
 
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