Another Malaysian airplane down

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,126
37,410
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Chinese have a lot of money to invest.

They already have a gas deal with Russia...which took 10 years. I think there is a limited appetite on the part of the Chinese to get even more deeply into bed with one supplier, especially one they often have a frosty relationship with. Instead they've turned their interest to Africa and the ME.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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They already have a gas deal with Russia...which took 10 years. I think there is a limited appetite on the part of the Chinese to get even more deeply into bed with one supplier, especially one they often have a frosty relationship with. Instead they've turned their interest to Africa and the ME.

Africa and ME are strategically risky for China, because US could blockade them in case of a conflict like it did Japan leading up to Pearl Harbor. There is also much higher transit cost over a pipeline.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
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106
Africa and ME are strategically risky for China, because US could blockade them in case of a conflict like it did Japan leading up to Pearl Harbor. There is also much higher transit cost over a pipeline.

Which is where Central Asia comes into play.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
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0
76
They already have a gas deal with Russia...which took 10 years. I think there is a limited appetite on the part of the Chinese to get even more deeply into bed with one supplier, especially one they often have a frosty relationship with. Instead they've turned their interest to Africa and the ME.

Exactly. Don't forget that there was armed conflict between China and the USSR during the Cold War.

Chinese-US trade is like Russia-EU trade: there's just way too much of it, which is why the US will never go beyond wagging its finger at China and vice-versa.

And the difference between China and Russia is that in Russia, Putin wields virtually absolute power. After the debacle of Mao's misrule, the Chinese divided power and is ruled by committee (and one that has term limits, too), to avoid a single person's ego leading them off a cliff like what Putin is doing. So the Chinese are unlikely to go off the deep end like Pooty-Put.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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That's a bit hyperbolic. All he can really do is nibble at the edges of non-NATO nations. Yea he's a big old prick for doing it but our options are limited as are his prospects for further expansion. I'll settle for slowly strangling their economy by moving the EU away from Russian energy imports and limiting access to capital markets.
Maybe. Don't forget that Czechoslovakia had a formal co-defense treaty with France and England, and Poland had a formal agreement that both would come to her defenses. Didn't save them from Germany. (And in Poland's case, the USSR as well.) I can see a LOT of newly minted Chamberlains saying Putin is just annexing Ukraine (then just Poland, then just Czech Republic . . .) rather than recreating the Soviet Union, so it's not worth World War III. Yet if Putin is bound to bring all or most of Europe under his control, then World War III is inevitable and it's best to face it from a position of relative strength, not allowing strength to be robbed piecemeal.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,126
37,410
136
Africa and ME are strategically risky for China, because US could blockade them in case of a conflict like it did Japan leading up to Pearl Harbor. There is also much higher transit cost over a pipeline.

They're already there. I think total trade between Africa and China is now several times that of what they do with Russia.

The US did not blockade Japan prior to the war, we embargoed scrap steel and oil/refined product sales. We were the primary supplier by far of petroleum to the Japanese. If anything China would take such history as a lesson not to become too dependent on any one nation for energy.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,126
37,410
136
Maybe. Don't forget that Czechoslovakia had a formal co-defense treaty with France and England, and Poland had a formal agreement that both would come to her defenses. Didn't save them from Germany. (And in Poland's case, the USSR as well.) I can see a LOT of newly minted Chamberlains saying Putin is just annexing Ukraine (then just Poland, then just Czech Republic . . .) rather than recreating the Soviet Union, so it's not worth World War III. Yet if Putin is bound to bring all or most of Europe under his control, then World War III is inevitable and it's best to face it from a position of relative strength, not allowing strength to be robbed piecemeal.

The world has changed a touch in the intervening decades. Russia does not wield the power of the old Soviet Union or anything remotely close. A conventional engagement against NATO inside it's former satellite states would go poorly for Russia. Any aggression against those countries on Putin's part constitutes an insane gamble that major NATO nations won't honor article V.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
The world has changed a touch in the intervening decades. Russia does not wield the power of the old Soviet Union or anything remotely close. A conventional engagement against NATO inside it's former satellite states would go poorly for Russia. Any aggression against those countries on Putin's part constitutes an insane gamble that major NATO nations won't honor article V.
I'd like to think so. My faith however is weak that France and Belgium won't decide to sacrifice, say, Estonia or Romania to keep cheap Russian energy.

EDIT: Six months ago we'd have considered Russian AAA shooting down Ukrainian fighters inside Ukraine to be an insane gamble. Now it's reality, along with Crimea being officially part of the Greater Russian Federation and eastern Ukraine being effectively the same, and there's been little done about it except some sanctions on specific individuals.
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
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I'd like to think so. My faith however is weak that France and Belgium won't decide to sacrifice, say, Estonia or Romania to keep cheap Russian energy.

Which is why America needs to keep military deployments to those countries right now for protection. A moderate size ground force and powerful Air Force squadrons with large reserves waiting in Germany should deter the Russians. Also we should deploy the Navy to estonia and Romania since both have access to the sea and we can use Estonia to pen in the Russians. Any idea on how fast Kalingrad would fall if we went to war with the Russians?
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Which is why America needs to keep military deployments to those countries right now for protection. A moderate size ground force and powerful Air Force squadrons with large reserves waiting in Germany should deter the Russians. Also we should deploy the Navy to estonia and Romania since both have access to the sea and we can use Estonia to pen in the Russians. Any idea on how fast Kalingrad would fall if we went to war with the Russians?
I'm not really in favor of keeping military contingents in foreign countries as a deterrent, and in this case with Russia poised to take Ukraine any move into the area might be used as an excuse to take Ukraine before we could be in place. It's not an easy decision even militarily, much less politically.

I'm pretty sure we would be attacking Kaliningrad hard though IF we were to attack, although probably not to take the Oblast so much as degrade the considerable Russian military contingent's offensive ability.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I'm not really in favor of keeping military contingents in foreign countries as a deterrent, and in this case with Russia poised to take Ukraine any move into the area might be used as an excuse to take Ukraine before we could be in place. It's not an easy decision even militarily, much less politically.

I'm pretty sure we would be attacking Kaliningrad hard though IF we were to attack, although probably not to take the Oblast so much as degrade the considerable Russian military contingent's offensive ability.

We deploy one brigade and one air wing each to Romania, Poland, and the Baltic countries. The Baltic countries each get at least one battalion. We have full divisions waiting in Germany. Estonia and Romania also each get one Expeditionary Strike Group to dock in the area.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
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You guys are playing too much Risk.

What do you think Putin is doing right now? He knows that it is easier to move your army into a empty area than to move into any country already occupied by possible adversaries. The conflict over Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula shows this in clear understanding. Basically this war is more of a war of show of force than actually fighting between the Muscovites and Americans.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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What do you think Putin is doing right now? He knows that it is easier to move your army into a empty area than to move into any country already occupied by possible adversaries. The conflict over Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula shows this in clear understanding. Basically this war is more of a war of show of force than actually fighting between the Muscovites and Americans.

Crimea was for security of Black Sea fleet and historical reasons, but Eastern Ukraine is for show. Crimea was also super easy because the Crimean population is largely for it, regardless of what you think about the referendum, so there was little or no resistance.
I don't think Putin gives a sh!t about Lugansk or Donetsk. Nothing special about those places that he doesn't already have plenty of in Russia. Coal country with noncompetitive industry, like a mix between Detroit and Appalachia. Plus no boundaries with Ukraine and a divided population means any full scale occupation would be expensive and risky.
It's more to say to Ukraine, play nice, or we are going to create your own Chechnya in here. For that, you don't need to occupy the place, just destabilize it.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
We deploy one brigade and one air wing each to Romania, Poland, and the Baltic countries. The Baltic countries each get at least one battalion. We have full divisions waiting in Germany. Estonia and Romania also each get one Expeditionary Strike Group to dock in the area.
Seems to me to be inviting defeat in detail if Putin is feeling that froggy. Also, we should never deploy troops in less than brigade strength; battalions are simply not designed to be self-sustaining more than a few days and typically only 48 hours of hard combat.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Seems to me to be inviting defeat in detail if Putin is feeling that froggy. Also, we should never deploy troops in less than brigade strength; battalions are simply not designed to be self-sustaining more than a few days and typically only 48 hours of hard combat.

Well I meant that one brigade would be deployed to the Baltic countries with the headquarters probably in Estonia. Also we can even deploy 2 battalions each to Latvia and Estonia for a total of 5 battalions. Or we can just deploy 2 full strength brigades to Latvia and Estonia.
 
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