Another tragedy in medical care

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: alchemize
Socialized medicine is basically a giant HMO run by the government.

Spoken like someone who wants to keep his job that has *no* benefit to society.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: alchemize
Just as a personal exercise, I decided to see what percentage insurance company profit represented of total healthcare spending. Based on that, if we recouped all of that money, how much could we save on healthcare.

I took the top 6 payers in the US and took their 2006 net income (in millions):

United 4159
WellPoint 3094
Aetna 1701
Cigna 1155
Coventry 560
Hum 487
Total 11156


So let's assume they dominate 1/2 the healthcare insurance market (it's probably much higher, but let's be conservative). So I roughly doubled the number - call it 20 $billion.

2005 Healthcare costs were estimated to be roughly $2 trillion. Probably low for 2006, but again being conservative.

That gives us a whopping 1.12% decrease in expenses.

They are also spectacularly inefficient. Their overhead costs are huge compared to socialized systems, I think it was somewhere over 25% which is nearly twice what people pay in other systems... and THAT is a lot of money.

I just read something claiming the profit & overhead of private insurers in America is about 13%, compared to Medicare at about 1.5%. If I can figure out where I read that, I'll post the link. I know I ran across it while doing some digging for another thread.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: alchemize
Socialized medicine is basically a giant HMO run by the government.

Spoken like someone who wants to keep his job that has *no* benefit to society.

That's an easy shot. My personal view was that his points were worth reading carefully because he has a close up view.

 

[babylon5]

All these back and forth argument won't change the fact US still has one of the worst health care system in the world in industrialized countries (unless you have money).

 

[StageLeft]

I've often touted the short MRI waits in the US. If I called on Monday morning for an appointment with a specialist over a fairly benign pain in my knee, I could have an apt the following week and an MRI the next day. Contrast with, if I was in Canada I'd have a hard time ever getting an MRI for such a problem in the first place, and if I did it would at least be MONTHS.

In this case, I can get the most advanced non-surgical exploratory procedure done on a mild problem on my knee in a week or two contrasted with somebody with a serious issue in Canada waiting months.

I hope that the altruistic people in the US who are more than willing to throw away their superior healthcare so that the poor can get yet more of what they've not earned makes them feel better when their kid can't get the treatment he needs in a timely fashion.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I've often touted the short MRI waits in the US. If I called on Monday morning for an appointment with a specialist over a fairly benign pain in my knee, I could have an apt the following week and an MRI the next day. Contrast with, if I was in Canada I'd have a hard time ever getting an MRI for such a problem in the first place, and if I did it would at least be MONTHS.

In this case, I can get the most advanced non-surgical exploratory procedure done on a mild problem on my knee in a week or two contrasted with somebody with a serious issue in Canada waiting months.

I hope that the altruistic people in the US who are more than willing to throw away their superior healthcare so that the poor can get yet more of what they've not earned makes them feel better when their kid can't get the treatment he needs in a timely fashion.

On the other hand, millions of children are without health insurance in the United States.

 

[senseamp]

Are you implying you need a four figure dollar MRI stat for a sore knee? With BCBS PPO, non-emergency MRI and CT needs their written pre approval first. Don't be surprised if the well wishing "doctor" who has never seen you, says no, and in this case, he may actually be right.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: alchemize
Just as a personal exercise, I decided to see what percentage insurance company profit represented of total healthcare spending. Based on that, if we recouped all of that money, how much could we save on healthcare.

I took the top 6 payers in the US and took their 2006 net income (in millions):

United 4159
WellPoint 3094
Aetna 1701
Cigna 1155
Coventry 560
Hum 487
Total 11156


So let's assume they dominate 1/2 the healthcare insurance market (it's probably much higher, but let's be conservative). So I roughly doubled the number - call it 20 $billion.

2005 Healthcare costs were estimated to be roughly $2 trillion. Probably low for 2006, but again being conservative.

That gives us a whopping 1.12% decrease in expenses.

They are also spectacularly inefficient. Their overhead costs are huge compared to socialized systems, I think it was somewhere over 25% which is nearly twice what people pay in other systems... and THAT is a lot of money.

I just read something claiming the profit & overhead of private insurers in America is about 13%, compared to Medicare at about 1.5%. If I can figure out where I read that, I'll post the link. I know I ran across it while doing some digging for another thread.

I've heard the same claim but have never seen any kind of verifiable source. And again - much of medicare's administration is outsourced to private insurers, so you have to take that into consideration. I know that all insurers report their numbers up to CMS, but then that's mixing apples and oranges.


Edit: OK a simple google search enlightened me. First two google posts brought up some very enlightened blog posts and discussion:

http://www.thehealthcareblog.c...0/policy_medicare.html
http://www.thehealthcareblog.c...6/policy_the_thre.html

In a nutshell, I believe a private/public combination of health insurance could certainly deliver comparable admin rates (in the single digits).

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: senseamp
You don't think this happens in America?

i was gonna say that...

at least in Canada you dont have to pay for the wait.

 

[Svnla]

I am in the US and all I can say is we have to do something about healthcare (socialized, hmo, free for all, mixed, whatever, etc.). The current system is not working. I am healthy, never been sick or filed a claim yet every year, the cost is going up and up. I am paying about $150 a month just for very basic care for myself from work. My cost is 40% and my employer's cost is 60%. So total cost for healthcare is over $300 just for me. That NOT included vision, dental, etc, just basic healthcare.

I don't know the answers or the best ways to fix it but we can't keep up like this (costwise).

 

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: ayabe
Compare this to the thousands or perhaps millions of people in this country who go bankrupt or forgo food to buy medicine.

FYI insurance companies deny claims for life and death procedures all the time.

:roll: I've been in in the insurance industry for over 10 years now and never once seen or heard of a single "life or death procedure" denied. This might have happened in the unregulated insurance markets of the 80's and 90's, but it just doesn't happen anymore. Your comment is completely untrue and I'd like to see you back it up with anything beyond a "Michael Moore anecdote".

sleep apnea?

 

[imported_Baloo]

WTF, this has nothing to do with socialized medicine. You want a shorter wait time, donate more money to hospitals so they can buy more equipment.

Edit: It was the doctors they failed her, they misdiagnosed her. Doctors are human, that happens, unfortunately. This have not a thing to do with insurance or socialized anything.

 

[Strk]

While not trying to defend one system over the other, it's worth pointing out that, when comparing medical care in all countries, especially when it comes to things like MRIs, the UK consistently scores poorly.

Wasn't there an article not too long ago that said Germany and France had something like twice as many MRI machines?

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Compare this to the thousands or perhaps millions of people in this country who go bankrupt or forgo food to buy medicine.

FYI insurance companies deny claims for life and death procedures all the time.

/thread.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: ayabe
Compare this to the thousands or perhaps millions of people in this country who go bankrupt or forgo food to buy medicine.

FYI insurance companies deny claims for life and death procedures all the time.

:roll: I've been in in the insurance industry for over 10 years now and never once seen or heard of a single "life or death procedure" denied. This might have happened in the unregulated insurance markets of the 80's and 90's, but it just doesn't happen anymore. Your comment is completely untrue and I'd like to see you back it up with anything beyond a "Michael Moore anecdote".

He admited his problem in the first sentence. He worked for the insurance industry so obviously he doesnt possess enough humanity to actually realize it. That or lack of adequate medical care has left him undiagnosed as deaf, dumb, and blind.

The insurance companies don't always outright deny things. They allow such absurd deductables and copays that it is impossible to afford your half of the procedure or medication. That is the same exact thing.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I've often touted the short MRI waits in the US. If I called on Monday morning for an appointment with a specialist over a fairly benign pain in my knee, I could have an apt the following week and an MRI the next day. Contrast with, if I was in Canada I'd have a hard time ever getting an MRI for such a problem in the first place, and if I did it would at least be MONTHS.

In this case, I can get the most advanced non-surgical exploratory procedure done on a mild problem on my knee in a week or two contrasted with somebody with a serious issue in Canada waiting months.

I hope that the altruistic people in the US who are more than willing to throw away their superior healthcare so that the poor can get yet more of what they've not earned makes them feel better when their kid can't get the treatment he needs in a timely fashion.

On the other hand, millions of children are without health insurance in the United States.

Most importantly to me, mine aren't in that group.

The current system is not working. I am healthy, never been sick or filed a claim yet every year, the cost is going up and up. I am paying about $150 a month just for very basic care for myself from work. My cost is 40% and my employer's cost is 60%. So total cost for healthcare is over $300 just for me.

For the love of God, what do you think you'd be paying in Canada? You know, I make precisely twice what my younger brother in Canada makes and we pay EXACTLY the same amount out of our paychecks in terms of percentage for taxes, social security (or their version in Canada), medical, etc.

He admited his problem in the first sentence. He worked for the insurance industry so obviously he doesnt possess enough humanity to actually realize it. That or lack of adequate medical care has left him undiagnosed as deaf, dumb, and blind

OR, it allows him a unique perspetive beyond that you've garnered by watching that michael moore bouncing around the ocean off the shores of Cuba.

 

[little elvis]

When's the last time you tried to get an MRI in Canada. Wait time are no longer Months and Months, MRI can be had with in 2 Weeks or quicker, depending on the severity of the medical problem.

My Mom, who has been having neck pains was scheduled for an MRI with in a week of the Doctor requesting it, and she her problem is NOT critical.

Canadian health care system is not perfect, nobody pretends it is, and serious issues do exist, however, it is getting better.

 

[StageLeft]

My Mom, who has been having neck pains was scheduled for an MRI with in a week of the Doctor requesting it, and she her problem is NOT critical.

She got lucky. It's a known fact that wait time in Canada for MRis averages in the months--check out the stats online. No, I can't be bothered to find them.

 

[freegeeks]

people always point to Canada and UK as a failure of socialized healthcare. They are right because these are badly managed systems. Especially the UK NHS system is notorious. What people don't realize that there are also plenty of well run universal healthcare systems. Just read the link posted here about the French system. I'm Belgian and we also have a mixed public /private system. There are no 2 month waits for an MRI, I can choose whatever doctor I want and I have the peace of mind that whatever happens in my professional live, I'm always going to enjoy high quality health insurance. The French, Belgian, German, .... systems are NOT perfect but they succeed in what they are supposed to do, give access to high quality health services to (almost) everyone at a reasonable price

just check objective parameters like life expentancy, child mortality and you will see that the American bragging rights of MRI scanners / population means absolutely nothing ...

just my 0,2 eurocent

 

[StageLeft]

just check objective parameters like life expentancy, child mortality and you will see that the American bragging rights of MRI scanners / population means absolutely nothing ...

It's simply ridiculous to use life expectancy as an example of questionable health care. And child mortality, but this has been addressed already in other threads.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

just check objective parameters like life expentancy, child mortality and you will see that the American bragging rights of MRI scanners / population means absolutely nothing ...

It's simply ridiculous to use life expectancy as an example of questionable health care. And child mortality, but this has been addressed already in other threads.

it is?

explain

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

just check objective parameters like life expentancy, child mortality and you will see that the American bragging rights of MRI scanners / population means absolutely nothing ...

It's simply ridiculous to use life expectancy as an example of questionable health care. And child mortality, but this has been addressed already in other threads.

The World Health Organization seems to disagree with you... but hey... what do they know?

BTW I am pretty sure Infant mortality is one of the best ways to judge a health system...

 

[bobdelt]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I've often touted the short MRI waits in the US. If I called on Monday morning for an appointment with a specialist over a fairly benign pain in my knee, I could have an apt the following week and an MRI the next day. Contrast with, if I was in Canada I'd have a hard time ever getting an MRI for such a problem in the first place, and if I did it would at least be MONTHS.

In this case, I can get the most advanced non-surgical exploratory procedure done on a mild problem on my knee in a week or two contrasted with somebody with a serious issue in Canada waiting months.

I hope that the altruistic people in the US who are more than willing to throw away their superior healthcare so that the poor can get yet more of what they've not earned makes them feel better when their kid can't get the treatment he needs in a timely fashion.

On the other hand, millions of children are without health insurance in the United States.

Almost all kids dont need it either.

 

[bobdelt]

Originally posted by: SirStev0

Originally posted by: Skoorb

just check objective parameters like life expentancy, child mortality and you will see that the American bragging rights of MRI scanners / population means absolutely nothing ...

It's simply ridiculous to use life expectancy as an example of questionable health care. And child mortality, but this has been addressed already in other threads.

The World Health Organization seems to disagree with you... but hey... what do they know?

BTW I am pretty sure Infant mortality is one of the best ways to judge a health system...

Health system? Or possibly the amount of druggies on welfare....

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: bobdelt

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I've often touted the short MRI waits in the US. If I called on Monday morning for an appointment with a specialist over a fairly benign pain in my knee, I could have an apt the following week and an MRI the next day. Contrast with, if I was in Canada I'd have a hard time ever getting an MRI for such a problem in the first place, and if I did it would at least be MONTHS.

In this case, I can get the most advanced non-surgical exploratory procedure done on a mild problem on my knee in a week or two contrasted with somebody with a serious issue in Canada waiting months.

I hope that the altruistic people in the US who are more than willing to throw away their superior healthcare so that the poor can get yet more of what they've not earned makes them feel better when their kid can't get the treatment he needs in a timely fashion.

On the other hand, millions of children are without health insurance in the United States.

Almost all kids dont need it either.

Are you delusional? Our daughter has to go in for check-ups, vaccinations, ear infections, breathing issues (she's asthmatic). I would hardly call her situation atypical either. I'd hate to see what we'd pay without insurance.

My whole family is covered by Tricare Prime (retired military), and we've never had an issue. Certainly can't beat it for $125/quarter.