Any Christian here that wants to talk to me? I lost faith some time ago.

[Zeze]

I get some pretty nasty responses sometimes, so I appreciate you taking the time to read it. You've got some really good questions.

A very high level of anthropomorphism of God is expected when we are created in his image. If you're willing to read, I'm willing to share an experience I had about a month ago when I was outside running with God. I do a lot of running, and it's a great time to talk to him, as that's what he and I like to do together. And one day he asked me, "Do you know why you love to run?" I didn't know what to say. God of the universe asking why you do what you do. I mean, how do you answer that? But I found his answer to be quite astonishing and profound. He said, "You love to run because I love to run. Nearly everyone in the world stares up at the sky and sees my hand print upon creation, but if you were to look closely, there you would find my foot print, too." But it explains the seemingly endless human societal behaviors that you pointed out. Some of us love to dance, some of us love to sing. Some make beer, write novels, delve into the deepest sciences, etc. We love these things, but it was his creativity that first brought them into existence. And you know what? None of those things are wrong. They can be twisted, but they were all created good.

At the same time though, I have also found through engaging in relationship with God though is that he is absolutely not human. He is engaging, hilarious, fascinating, profound, and way more complex than I can describe. But, that's the fun of it. Look at it this way, perhaps the anthropomorphism is so that we can find that initial common ground? Would you rather have that, or talk to a rock you absolutely couldn't relate to?

Why is God mad at sin? (and the rest you wrote)
I'm not sure how to respond to you in words, but I have seen the tremendous damage in people's lives of those who engage in retribution, vindication, unforgiveness, etc. Those things just aren't made to be carried by us. I once knew a woman who would not forgive her mom for something. I can't remember the specific details. Her body constantly shook and she was always sick in some way, and the doctors could never figure out why. She and I were the same age, but the constant anger she had stored up in herself for so long made us look years apart. And so from God's perspective, sin has a really good way of getting in the way of us reaching our maximum potential in life. In her case, it was literally destroying her. And I see it in more ways than one. Her story is just one of many.

Again, I grew up Christian - I did the works - I went on missions to Hopi people in AZ reservations, had honest prayers with God nearly all my adolescence, etc. They say He is a jealous God. Why is God so petty? I'm a stupid mortal and if I created someone, even I'd say, "Screw off and enjoy yourselves."

You did the works, did the works, did the works. (The following language I'm about to use is meant to heavily engage you, not attack you, so don't feel threatened by my words). I get the feeling you grew up in a church that taught that God doesn't talk to people anymore like he did the apostles? Were you taught growing up that you were a broken sinner in a broken shell of a body? Not allowed to express your love for Christ? Heavy on the fire and brimstone stuff? Hey, just pray that the Lord returns so you don't have to deal with the world's problems, right?

Unfortunately, those teachings instill in us a very pauper-like identity that is absolutely wrong. You are absolutely worthy of having a father/son-like relationship with God, he does engage in conversation with those who will listen, he doesn't want us walking around calling ourselves horrible adjectives, and when we recognize problems in the world, he wants us to actually do something about it. You say if you created someone that even you'd say, "Screw off and enjoy yourselves," but that's because you see your relationship through the lens of a slave/master. Slaves do not have relationship with their master; their only duty is to do the work right so that they don't get in trouble. If you have a son or daughter, and you loved them dearly, you would never tell them to, "Screw off and enjoy yourselves." And surely, you do not see your children as slaves.

Let's talk about the concept of eternity. Do you know how mind-blowingly long a million years is? Then what about million x million at one trillion years? How about a trillion of trillion years? And what if that trillion of trillion years is just a BLINK OF AN EYE in your life? That barely scratches the surface of eternity. So how I suffer for eternity in hell or bask in glory in heaven for eternity is all based on my speck of 80 year human life? A trillion and trillions of years later in hell, God tells me that I'm still stuck there because of what I did eons ago?

Easy answer here actually. The words used in Hebrew and Greek are translated as "eternal" in the English language, but the meaning is not the same, and thus the English definition of eternal doesn't properly fit the original definition. I often remind people that the Bible was not written in English. It was written in languages that are now dead, and the words and the sentence structure of those languages does not translate directly into English. We do not have words for the words they used, and if you tried to translate it literally, it would make absolutely no sense to us attempting to read it.

This page does a good job of trying to explain it - http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/eternityexplained.html

1. To be honest, that's a lot of writing for a.. non-answer. And this doesn't mean an answer I dislike. But you straight up didn't answer questions. I asked why is God mad at sin and sinners? And I don't know what it is you wrote. There isn't even a point being made - you just shared an intimate quite time (QT) you had with your God.

2. I asked about jealous/petty god - no I didn't grow up in a fire & brimstone southern baptist style church. I grew up in Massachusetts in a United Methodist Korean church. It's pretty 'liberal', welcoming, and we had tons of fun. You think I'm joking when I said I was a hardcore Christian. I'm not joking. I was a proper well-rounded God-loving Christian that went to Sunday schools, volunteered, led praise bands, and taught Sunday schools to HS kids when I was in college, went on mission trips, etc. Nothing was fire & brimstone. I wasn't even aware of such concept until I went to college and actually met a white kid from south that struggled with guilt-oriented Fire & Brimstone system.

As I indicated in the first OP of this thread, this was not an emotional/angry decision but a logical one. Things just didn't start to add up. You said our relationship with God is akin to parent/son. But why are we anthropomophizing God again to human-like limitations? Perhaps God can love you despite everything you do & don't do. Isn't that unconditional love?

3. If Bible is not written in English and there's a translation/contextual gap, then shouldn't you get to the bottom of that as religious faith dictates your very foundation of yourself? My friend just so happened to mention this too about the translation gap. Well, how does that help your case?? You can't just chock it up to that and say, "that can be the issue." Either get to the bottom of what Bible is really saying or don't just go with the flow half baked. When you sign a contract to sell your house, wouldn't you read and internalize every word of the contract?

4. Contesting the word eternity is very dangerous here. Because the vast majority of Christians in the world are taking them literally today. I read your link and he makes no sense. What is he trying to articulate? Eternity means what then?

 

[Zeze]

I saw that, but I need to go to the store and I really don't feel like debating religion. I said what I had to say. I don't think you'll care one way or another what I or others have to say. All I'll add is that when they say God is everywhere he truly is. From the molecules and atoms that spin in your very body to life's balance of power. Just the fact that the sun gives us life and without it is amazing. The sun gave you a house to live in, food and clothes. And to think the ancients worshiped it.

Today we find ourselves going to a more secular society even though we know a lot about how things work and the universe around us thus far. I feel like science and religion and coexist.

Ugh, I have to call you out on the copping out. Why are you assuming I won't care what you have to say? Is it because you have no answers? It's the answers I've been seeking all my life. Why wouldn't I listen to anyone's answers?

Your second half of writing has nothing to do with the questions posed.

 

[crashtech]

You definition is whatever you want it to be and I don't give a shit how you convince yourself that you're something you're not.

THE ACTUAL DEFINITION of atheist
Webster- "a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods".
OED - "A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods"

Use any dictionary you like, they all say the same thing. If you believe in a god you're a theist and if you don't you're an atheist. And you're still an atheist even if you don't believe, but are not 100% sure. If you don't believe in a god you're an atheist, period and that holds true no matter how sure you are. An agnostic doesn't believe in god, therefore according to any standard and accepted definition of atheist they're an atheist.

You want to insist that there's no matter of degree; that someone who actively seeks an epiphany is the same as someone like you who actively denies the existence of god. Most rational people can discern the difference, and conveniently, we have words that can describe nuances. Who knew? Ironically, aggressive atheists are often more zealous and pushy about their disbelief than the devout are about their faith. Often this comes from rebellion after having been traumatized by a religious authority figure, but sometimes it's just because they are assholes.

 

[Zeze]

You want to insist that there's no matter of degree; that someone who actively seeks an epiphany is the same as someone like you who actively denies the existence of god. Most rational people can discern the difference, and conveniently, we have words that can describe nuances. Who knew? Ironically, aggressive atheists are often more zealous and pushy about their disbelief than the devout are about their faith. Often this comes from rebellion after having been traumatized by a religious authority figure, but sometimes it's just because they are assholes.

To me, there IS a clear definition between:
"I know there's no god"
"I don't know there's a god"

Nvm, found the chart.

Now, I don't think anyone can say "there's no god". I think that takes same leap of faith as believers. We know nothing. Our science is still so so premature.

My position is, "I don't know there's a god, therefore I don't believe." And objectively speaking replace 'I' with 'everyone'.

Because objectively there's 0 proof that god exists.

 

[pmv]

For starters, you can stop calling yourself an agnostic atheist. The vast majority of (if not all) atheists would also be agnostic by default. Claiming otherwise would require proof of the non-existence of gods. You are just trying to soften the "harshness" of the word atheist, either for yourself or for your audience.

It's not that God doesn't exist, it's that I believe God doesn't want anyone to believe in him. He _hates_ brown-nosers and yes-men (and especially anyone who pesters him with prayers and stuff) and will punish them for all eternity. Consequently I don't believe in him...Er, I mean I wouldn't, if he existed...which he doesn't. No siree, non-existent. Nothing to see here.

 

[pmv]

You want to insist that there's no matter of degree; that someone who actively seeks an epiphany is the same as someone like you who actively denies the existence of god. Most rational people can discern the difference, and conveniently, we have words that can describe nuances. Who knew? Ironically, aggressive atheists are often more zealous and pushy about their disbelief than the devout are about their faith. Often this comes from rebellion after having been traumatized by a religious authority figure, but sometimes it's just because they are assholes.

But a lot of those who claim to be 'agnostic' don't seem to in practice live as if they are full of doubt about matters of potentially infinite import (e.g. worrying about being damned for all eternity for offending the God-of-not-stepping-on-the-cracks-in-the-sidewalk - bearing in mind how the expected value calculation works out when the stakes are infinite!).

At most they might have a few qualms about some very basic sort of God who conveniently will only damn them for doing things they don't really feel like doing anyway.

I'd believe more in the existence of agnostics if I could see much discernible difference in actual behaviour vs atheists. As far as I can see agnostics mostly just get on with things the same way atheists do.

Maybe it's just argumentative non-believers versus 'just want a quiet life' non-believers?

 

[GagHalfrunt]

You want to insist that there's no matter of degree; that someone who actively seeks an epiphany is the same as someone like you who actively denies the existence of god. Most rational people can discern the difference, and conveniently, we have words that can describe nuances. Who knew? Ironically, aggressive atheists are often more zealous and pushy about their disbelief than the devout are about their faith. Often this comes from rebellion after having been traumatized by a religious authority figure, but sometimes it's just because they are assholes.

I'm not insisting there's no matter of degree. THERE IS NO MATTER OF DEGREE. An atheist is a person that does not believe in God. Do you dispute that? By definition an agnostic does not believe in god. You can categorize it any way you want, but there are some absolutes. A person is or is not pregnant. A person is or is not dead. A species is or is not extinct. A person does or does not believe. It doesn't matter if you're 100% sure in your disbelief or only 7% sure, either way you don't believe and that makes you an atheist. It's the square rhombus thing, every square is a rhombus, but not every rhombus is a square. Well every agnostic is an atheist, but not every atheist is an agnostic.

That's the whole freaking point of agnosticism, that's where it came from. They are people who by definition don't believe in god and they created a new category for themselves because they were afraid to admit it. Can you name any other belief on Earth that has created a brand new word to describe whether or not people believe in it? Any? Even one? Agnostics are atheists who don't want to call themselves atheists. That's not a matter of degree, that it the actual definition of both groups.

An atheist does not believe in god
An agnostic does not believe in god.

What part of that is tripping you up?

 

[BudAshes]

I remember becoming agnostic. I was 10. Not sure how anyone makes it past 10. I felt pretty stupid at the time that I believed in it that long.

 

[crashtech]

But a lot of those who claim to be 'agnostic' don't seem to in practice live as if they are full of doubt about matters of potentially infinite import (e.g. worrying about being damned for all eternity for offending the God-of-not-stepping-on-the-cracks-in-the-sidewalk - bearing in mind how the expected value calculation works out when the stakes are infinite!).

At most they might have a few qualms about some very basic sort of God who conveniently will only damn them for doing things they don't really feel like doing anyway.

I'd believe more in the existence of agnostics if I could see much discernible difference in actual behaviour vs atheists. As far as I can see agnostics mostly just get on with things the same way atheists do.

Maybe it's just argumentative non-believers versus 'just want a quiet life' non-believers?

Let's be fair, most people get along in life similarly, regardless of religious or political beliefs. So it's difficult to use that as any kind of metric. Also, the import of wrong actions is only infinite if the agnostic in question verges on belief in some sort of vengeful god.

 

[Thebobo]

Please ship me the good stuff you're toking.

Me to

 

[crashtech]

What part of that is tripping you up?

I'm not the one having trouble here, though I will admit to some puzzlement about your desire to be so overly reductive. It's fine if you want this issue to be simple for yourself, but you don't get to impose your belief system upon others; your all caps declaration seeming to indicate that such is your desire.

 

[Skunk-Works]

Ugh, I have to call you out on the copping out. Why are you assuming I won't care what you have to say? Is it because you have no answers? It's the answers I've been seeking all my life. Why wouldn't I listen to anyone's answers?

Your second half of writing has nothing to do with the questions posed.

I didn't cop out. Why would I go out of my way and type a page long response in the first place? If you seek answers why don't you read the Bible? At least the Gospels. Read Jesus' words in red. It's only you that can make up your own damn mind. I can only lead a horse to water.

 

[pmv]

Let's be fair, most people get along in life similarly, regardless of religious or political beliefs. So it's difficult to use that as any kind of metric. Also, the import of wrong actions is only infinite if the agnostic in question verges on belief in some sort of vengeful god.

Not true! With religious people you can usually see their beliefs affect their behaviour. They won't do certain things for fear of damnation, for example, and they will perform their various rituals (leaving the violent maniacs out of it). So there is an identifiable difference in behaviour, and material consequences of their internal state.

The question is whether self-described 'agnostics' show any similar differences in behaviour from self-described atheists. If they don't, then I say it's a meaningless distinction.

As for the question of which God an agnostic is agnostic about - that's half a fair point, but it means then that there are no all-aspect agnostics - different agnostics are agnostic about different Gods, so they should call themselves 'zorastrian agnostic' or 'Presbetarian agnostic' and so on.

Which entirely undermines their claims to take the 'only rational position' of 'not knowing', as they've clearly decided to be agnostic only about certain Gods, while being atheists about all the others.

And an awful lot of Gods do threaten infinite punishments for transgressions (personally, as a failed vegetarian, I occasionally worry God might be a militant Vegan), so agnostics are actually being very selective and can no more claim to be rational than can anyone else.

 

[Zeze]

I didn't cop out. Why would I go out of my way and type a page long response in the first place? If you seek answers why don't you read the Bible? At least the Gospels. Read Jesus' words in red. It's only you that can make up your own damn mind. I can only lead a horse to water.

 

[Ventanni]

1. To be honest, that's a lot of writing for a.. non-answer. And this doesn't mean an answer I dislike. But you straight up didn't answer questions. I asked why is God mad at sin and sinners? And I don't know what it is you wrote. There isn't even a point being made - you just shared an intimate quite time (QT) you had with your God.

2. I asked about jealous/petty god - no I didn't grow up in a fire & brimstone southern baptist style church. I grew up in Massachusetts in a United Methodist Korean church. It's pretty 'liberal', welcoming, and we had tons of fun. You think I'm joking when I said I was a hardcore Christian. I'm not joking. I was a proper well-rounded God-loving Christian that went to Sunday schools, volunteered, led praise bands, and taught Sunday schools to HS kids when I was in college, went on mission trips, etc. Nothing was fire & brimstone. I wasn't even aware of such concept until I went to college and actually met a white kid from south that struggled with guilt-oriented Fire & Brimstone system.

As I indicated in the first OP of this thread, this was not an emotional/angry decision but a logical one. Things just didn't start to add up. You said our relationship with God is akin to parent/son. But why are we anthropomophizing God again to human-like limitations? Perhaps God can love you despite everything you do & don't do. Isn't that unconditional love?

3. If Bible is not written in English and there's a translation/contextual gap, then shouldn't you get to the bottom of that as religious faith dictates your very foundation of yourself? My friend just so happened to mention this too about the translation gap. Well, how does that help your case?? You can't just chock it up to that and say, "that can be the issue." Either get to the bottom of what Bible is really saying or don't just go with the flow half baked. When you sign a contract to sell your house, wouldn't you read and internalize every word of the contract?

4. Contesting the word eternity is very dangerous here. Because the vast majority of Christians in the world are taking them literally today. I read your link and he makes no sense. What is he trying to articulate? Eternity means what then?

Yes, sorry, I got a bit long winded there.

2. A lot of this can be answered by straight up understanding that relationship precedes knowledge and action, not the other way around. It's from our relationship that knowledge and understanding come forth, and it's from our relationship that our actions align with his. Jesus didn't say in Matthew 7:21-23, (paraphrasing) "Depart from me, you did all these bad things," he said, "Depart from me, I never knew you."

3. Bible translators try and get to the point of what the text is really trying to say all the time. There isn't just one translation of the Bible, and there's not just one way of translating it. You just can't translate Ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek directly into modern day English. That's just not how any language works. Additionally, translators are often working from multiple sources, which may have been copied directly or indirectly. It's like trying to translate a copy of a copy of a copy. None of it pulls the rug out from the core message, but yes, it can be very intellectually offensive and stimulating. I love it.

4. It means the only thing truly eternal is God. But our concept of eternity requires one thing to exist for the word to have meaning; time.

I didn't cop out. Why would I go out of my way and type a page long response in the first place? If you seek answers why don't you read the Bible? At least the Gospels. Read Jesus' words in red. It's only you that can make up your own damn mind. I can only lead a horse to water.

You know Zeze, he's got a good point here. I was once an atheist too until I actually started reading the Bible for myself.

 

[Mai72]

I was born Catholic but I'm now Catholic/Buddhist.

The thing is we are all socially conditioned to believe in a higher power. Think about it. Your parents are Christains. You are supossed to follow in their footsteps without even questioning if this is actually what you believe. Most people live their lives in this fashion. They just follow what they've been told but without ever critically thinking if this is right for me. The bible was written by men many years ago. It has many faults. Now, the issue I have with religion, especially Christain religion is it all ego. Much of it is based on the ego. YOU ARE NOT YOU! Guess what? You are just a bunch of neurons cobbled together, and your belief rises from the sh*t that other people and society has put in your head. You are the sum of both cultural and social conditioning. You realize that when you travel the world. I've lived in Thailand, China, and South Korea. I've visited Vietnam and Cambodia. When you actually get out of your little comfort zone and experiece the harsh realities of the world, you come to the realization that the way you think is due to being socially conditioned.

The ego is going to want you to believe that things are going to be just the same when yiou die. That when you die you're going to be with your loved ones. YOU"RE NOT. That you're going to be living in a small home overlooking a green pasture. YOU"RE NOT. That GOD is some old white guy. Why can't he be disabled, in a wheel chair and Chinese? Well the GOD that we know was concieved by white men many years ago. Disabled people? Many were killed at birth. The truth is everthing eventually gets old, dies, gets destroyed and rises again. The cycle continues.

Many people are just afraid of death. We do a horrible job in our culture on this subject. We don't talk about it. That it has to be taboo is redicilous. As Alan Watts once stated "dying is just as natural as being born." Lose your attachment to the after life. Live your life with purpose and enjoy the process. If their is a GOD you'll make it into heaven by doing good in this world. By having a purpose. Yea, I know people will disagree on me here. I've met many Christains and many are just hypocrites. They criticize others and contribute NOTHING. Anyway, that's my opinion.

 

[DigDog]

Well, I'll share the Qs:
- Why do the concepts of sin & atonement even exist? You're God, just make everything whole
- Why does God let hell exist.. to be suffering for eternity? That's a little hard no?
- Why does God even care about your deeds in this world? I mean, I'm a crappy guy and even I would graciously let EVERYONE go to heaven. Why the fack not?
- etc...

1. Sin is a concept developed to explain why we feel bad doing some things instead of others.
As animals, we instinctively know that some things are harmful to the family, group, or species. Empathy is also innate, we therefore feel bad when we do bad things to others that we identify as "one of us", as if we experienced those ourselves. Again, a survival mechanism so that when one animal gets eaten by a crocodile, all the others understand that being eaten by a crocodile is bad.
Being able to override the feelings of badness when we do bad things is what created the concept of "evil" and "satan". Atonement is again empathy applied to individuals who "accidentally" override this feeling and later realize "what i did was bad".

2. Hell is a modern concept, made famous primarily by Dante Alighieri, but altogether absent from the bible. It's more part of religion as understood to be a tool of mass control, rather than a social spiritual belief - the religion of the Popes, rather than the religion of the people.
In the ancient biblical tradition, Lucifer was cast from the sight of god, as were Adam & Eve, and the mere lack of the sight of God & his awesomeness were enough torment. There is no specified place where Lucifer was sent, although Ghenna / Hell was literally a dump, a place where garbage was disposed of it, and being away from God was compared to being thrown in this dump, therefore Hell.

3. Again .. all these things aren't real. You are trying to reason your way around a fabrication, which is the why of the headaches. How does superman shave? Why does he not sink into the ground? What are his clothes made of?
And so on.
As i understand it, the exact answer to your question is "the new covenant".
When Adam eats the apple, god goes all ragey nerdomatic on them and wants to kill everyone with fire, but later he creates weed and therefore mellows out, and as such says "if you peeps behave very good and give all your money to the man behind the curtain, WHEN YOU DIE, i will take you back in Heaven, which is a totally real and not at all made up place and you will love it".

 

[renz20003]

At the end of the day the most important commandment is to treat one another with respect and care. I personally believe in faith but not religion and I do believe in god and Christ.

 

[Thebobo]

God is a chemical reaction in your brain.

 

[slayer202]

OP is so pathetic jesus christ, pardon the pun. sounds like you are trying to justify religion to yourself because it's such a big part of your culture so you are trying to lie to yourself because you're scared. there's no god

 

[justoh]

It's a distinction without a difference. Agnosticism is meaningless because we can't be certain about anything, so by default all one can do is notice that there's no evidence for the existence of any gods. Or if you're an idiot, not notice, and then vote Republican. Thanks Christians.

 

[Zeze]

OP is so pathetic jesus christ, pardon the pun. sounds like you are trying to justify religion to yourself because it's such a big part of your culture so you are trying to lie to yourself because you're scared. there's no god

Yikes.

Why am I scared? I've been god-free in last 20 years and enjoying it. It was the biggest freedom I gained.

 

[crashtech]

@pmv , I don't really want to continue my off-topic digression, but it may be that you are engaging in flawed reasoning re the behavior of self-described agnostics. It's common for human behaviors not to match professed beliefs, but this says much more about our flawed nature than it does about the validity of any particular philosophy.

 

[slayer202]

Yikes.

Why am I scared? I've been god-free in last 20 years and enjoying it. It was the biggest freedom I gained.

so why are you wasting time with these questions?

 

[BD231]

I'll say ...

The fact remains, white women molest young children every month of every year and apparently incest is still higher on their priority list than having an awesome fukbuddy like me in their life. Anything that comes out of the minds that support that sh*t, religion included, can't be a good thing.