Any electricians out there?

[CrashX]

OK, we just built a new house. So brand new everything. New appliances, new A/C, new water heater.

We are coming from a 1700ish sq/ft TWO story plus finished basement (with one zone) 8 year old house to a new 1700ish sq/ft ONE story plus finished basement. We keep our thermostat set at 77 most of the time. We did this at the old house and at the new house.

We never had an electric bill over $150 at the old house. We've been in the new house for two months and have recieved two electric bills, one $230 and the other $270.

So we are going from an 8 year old 2 story to a new 1 story and our bill has almost doubled. My neighbors are all getting around $150 bills as well and almost ALL of them keep their temps down to around 70-72F. So something is definitely up.

All the equipment I brought over I had at the old out: TVs, computers, etc. So I know it's not that. I called the electric company and they said it's not the meter. The builder sent over the insulation people and verified it's all in place. The A/C company came over and checked the system and it's all right. So I am lost here.

I borrowed an amp meter that clamps on around the wires to check all my circuits in my breaker box. None of them appear to be pulling a hight amount of amps. I check the main feed and with the A/C it's pulling 20amps.

Now the question. Since the feed is split into two lines, 100amps at 120V as I understand it, what the correct way to convert the Amps into Watts. For instance, one side shows 20amps and the other shows 18-20 amps. Do I take the highest of the two and multiply by 240V? Do I add the two together? I believe I understand how to convert to kWh, but I need to know the correct Watts first.

So ANY advice ANY of you can give me would be great appreciated.

 

[Rubycon]

Since you've moved you may want to compare your bill(s) and see what you're paying per kWh and compare daily consumption.

 

[Cogman]

What type of water heater did you have in your old house? Was it electric driven or gas powered? Other then that, Im at a loss. Does your new house have more windows then the old one? Or even more exposure to the sun? That is quite a heft jump in price.

 

[CrashX]

The kWh prices appear to be the same (or close), around $.08 per kWh. The bill does not show it (imagine that), so I divided the usage charge by the kWh for the month.

The electric company shows me using between 2800 to 3400 kWh's per month. Yet my parents, who live in a similar size and style house (except around 12 years old), in the same city, are use around 1500 kWH's per month.

So I have to figure out if something in my house is drawing a LOT of extra power or if the electric meter is wrong.

 

[CrashX]

The new house has an electric water heater, the old had a gas. I know that will make a slight difference, but it is a pretty nice water heater and should be fairly efficient. In fact, the whole neighborhood has the same water heater and no one else has a bill like mine.

We do have some windows that point to the south, but most of them have light blocking shades that remain closed most of the time. A couple don't, but I don't see a couple windows make that kind of impact. Plus, we paid extra for the Low-E windows in this house, so the windows show be more efficient.

 

[Cogman]

Your water heater will actually make a fairly big difference. Even very effective water heaters take a lot of Juice to keep the heat up. You might just be a victim of being a geek (Powerful computer, big TV, and Nice monitor). If you really want to check the power meter, try switching Everything off in your house, and check what it is reading for power draw. If it is a fairly high number, you might want to call an electrician in and ask him his opinion (you might have a short in your wiring). Again, Im at a loss here, Heating and Cooling are generally the biggest power suckers, so letting too much light in, and having too long of showers might just be the clincher.

 

[CrashX]

I understand that the water heater can make a difference, I also expect that going from a two story two a one story with a new more efficient air conditioner should come close to evening that out. Plus, my neighbors all have the same water heater and only have around a $120-$150 electric bill AND they keep their A/C at 70-72 instead of 78 like me.

All the equipment I brought over from my previous house and ran them all the time like I do now: 3 PCs, 2 TV (One LCD, one DLP), etc. Our shower times haven't changed since moving, so I just don't see how it could be anything we had at the old house and never had a crazy high electric bill.

 

[KMurphy]

You've stated that your new house has an electric water heater. How about central heating, clothes dryer, stove top, oven? Were these gas at your old house as well? If they are electric at your new house, then that is why your bill is comparatively high. Install a timer on your water heater, that will save about 30% on its usage alone. If your new house has no gas, then subtract what you used to pay for gas at your old house from the electric bill on your new house.

To find KW from your amps and volts, you also need to know the power factor which you aren't likely to measure unless you buy (or rent or borrow) a power quality meter that has this function and can connect it properly.

 

[CrashX]

The dryer is gas. We brought it with us from the old house.
The old house had an electric stove. The new house has a new electric stove.
The furnace was gas at the old house and gas at the new house (though we haven't had to run the furnace in this 100F heat.

My dad suggested a timer on the water heater, and I plan to take him up on it. But I still don't see the water heater alone doubling my bill, or doubling my kWh.

Regarding the power factor: Is there no way for me to judge the accuracy of my meter then?
I'm at a real loss here. I don't know if it's something in the house, or the meter, but I firmly believe there is no way MY bill can be double my neighbors when they all have bigger houses AND keep their thermostat set 5-8F lower than mine. It just doesn't add up.

There has to be something I can do to test.

 

[KMurphy]

Actually, your water heater will make a bigger difference than you think. Assume it is a 4500W unit (typical for a 50gal tank). It is either on or off; so assume a 30% duty cycle to keep your water up to temperature; also depends on your temperature set point.

4.5kW * 720 (hours per month) * 0.3 = 972 KWH

This is very general. One quick and easy thing you can do is lower the thermostat on the water heater and check next month's bill. There will be a big difference.

 

[0roo0roo]

insulate the heater?

 

[NoShangriLa]

HWT normally add $30-40/month in electricity cost.
1 story house with basement have greater exterior surface area compare to 2 story with basement, therefore increase in energy lost.

AC unit could have lower SEER rating than the old home.
Appliances could be bigger & consumes more energy than the old appliances.
Greater windows surface area also add more to energy lost.
Poor attic ventilation/insulation is another energy lost (vaulted ceiling, smaller airspace, not enough ventilation).
Higher ceiling add energy lost due to greater exterior surface area & greater volume to heat/cool.
HRV also cost energy to run if you have it.
Geography location of house also play a big role in the cost of energy consumption (top/bottom/north/south of hill, near/far away from water, wind/no wind, shaded trees/no trees, grass/no grass).

[/Correction]

 

[CrashX]

I would be happy if the electric bill was only $30-$40 more than the old house. but it is more like $100-$150 more.
Remember, we are going from a 2 story to a 1 story.
From a 10 SEER to a 13 SEER.
The insulation is similar.
We do have vaulted ceilings in this house, but we had a two story in the old house.

My biggest thing is, my neighbors have the same water heater and no one my electric bill is twice theirs.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: CrashX
I would be happy if the electric bill was only $30-$40 more than the old house. but it is more like $100-$150 more.
Remember, we are going from a 2 story to a 1 story.
From a 10 SEER to a 13 SEER.
The insulation is similar.
We do have vaulted ceilings in this house, but we had a two story in the old house.

My biggest thing is, my neighbors have the same water heater and no one my electric bill is twice theirs.

Ask the Utility for an Energy Audit.

They will identify what is the draw.

 

[mrrman]

Ask the Utility for an Energy Audit.

They will identify what is the draw.
[/quote]

good point...I was going to suggest the same

 

[TheSiege]

also you want to make your loads are about the same on both sides for the breaker box. if you are running 60 amps on one side and 20 on the other you are going to have alot of energy loss, also, is your heater 120 or 240? if its 240 then you should be fine, if its 120 then its going to take alot more power. remember you are charged by the amp. so the higher the voltage the less amps you use. watts/volts=amps

and if you are wondering why you need the loads to be equal is because power is ran is phases, look it up if you want more clarification its kinda hard to explain

 

[Pabster]

You might want to check on that electric water heater.

They use a lot more kWh than most people realize, even brand new models. They're better than before, but not by much. Electricity is a terribly inefficient way to heat anything.

I don't see that ALONE causing a 2x use in total kWh but they could easily add between 400 and 600 kWh total to your monthly bill. What size is it?

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: CrashX
I would be happy if the electric bill was only $30-$40 more than the old house. but it is more like $100-$150 more.
Remember, we are going from a 2 story to a 1 story.
From a 10 SEER to a 13 SEER.
The insulation is similar.
We do have vaulted ceilings in this house, but we had a two story in the old house.

My biggest thing is, my neighbors have the same water heater and no one my electric bill is twice theirs.

My bad, 1 story have greater surface area than 2 story with the similar size floor space.

Vaulted ceiling greatly reduce air gap between ceiling & roof, therefore it reduce air volume & movement and increase energy lost.
2 story house have roughly 30% less exterior surface & wall than 1 story (pending the shape of house), therefore energy lost in single story house might be very well increase by at least 1/3. (ceiling surface in crease by at least 50%, vaulted ceiling have even more surface than flat ceiling, and reduce of air gap between ceiling & roof also a big factor).

Main energy lost in a home beside cracks/gaps is ceiling & windows.

[add]

$150 + 33.33% + $40 = $240

Their are several way to save money on your new home other than move to a smaller & more conservative design home is to change your power usage habit.

Use CFL lights.
Turn lights off when not in use.
Use logic control thermal stat to lower energy use when you are away from the home & during sleeps.
Add an additional insulation jacket to the water tank.
Change AC unit to a better heat pump system rated in higher SEERs (some system can get as high as 18 SEERs, and can be very expensive to purchase).

 

[Modelworks]

Have the meter checked.
They fail just like everything else.

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: TheSiege
also you want to make your loads are about the same on both sides for the breaker box. if you are running 60 amps on one side and 20 on the other you are going to have alot of energy loss, also, is your heater 120 or 240? if its 240 then you should be fine, if its 120 then its going to take alot more power. remember you are charged by the amp. so the higher the voltage the less amps you use. watts/volts=amps

and if you are wondering why you need the loads to be equal is because power is ran is phases, look it up if you want more clarification its kinda hard to explain

120V isn't commonly use for house hold water tank. Most house hold water tank is 40 gallon or greater that tend to use 240V. Smaller 10-30 gallon tank may use 120V element/s.

 

[CrashX]

The water heater is 50 gallon, 240V.
I've put my amp meter on both legs several times throughout the day and have yet to see it even register. This may not be a super accurate test, but it does tell me that it's not running all the time or anything weird like that.
I'm really starting to think it's the meter.

I understand and can appreciate the fact that it's a different house, with a different setup. But the neighbors I've talking to all have bigger or the same size ranch as me, have the same water heater and keep their thermostats (same programmable thermostat) set at 6-8 degrees lower than mine. In fact, the display house is a BIG 3000 sqft story and a half, with 20 foot ceilings, with the offices in the 3 car garage. The door to the garage is removed and the cooling is supplied through that doorway. They keep theirs in the mid 70s all the time and their electric bill is $300. No way should my ranch, half the size be any where near that.

I took amp readings on all my circuits just to get a base line.

Without the A/C on, but legs are pulling around 2.8-3 amps.

I've run the house without the A/C on morning and have checked my meter serveral times. Without the A/C on I am seeing an increase on the meter of about 2.5 kWh per hour still. That seems high to me for not running the A/C.
I am going to leave for a party today. I am going to shut off the water heater and A/C at the breaker box while I am gone. I am going to log a before and after and see what kind of kWh I am logging. If it's still 2 per hour, then something isn't right. That would mean I am using 1500 kWh's a month without even having hot water or air conditioning. That is WELL above the norm. In fact, my parents ranch with finished basement and vaulted ceilings use 1500 kWh per month in the dead of summer!

 

[drnickriviera]

Was this your own A/C company or the builders? What type and how thick is the insulation in the attic?

To answer your original questions. You have 120 volts on each leg of the outside unit. So if you are drawing 18 on one and 20 on the other. 18X120 + 20X120 then multiply by time to get kwh. If it's only on for 30 mins out of the hour X .5

 

[NoShangriLa]

Originally posted by: CrashX
The water heater is 50 gallon, 240V.
I've put my amp meter on both legs several times throughout the day and have yet to see it even register. This may not be a super accurate test, but it does tell me that it's not running all the time or anything weird like that.
I'm really starting to think it's the meter.

I understand and can appreciate the fact that it's a different house, with a different setup. But the neighbors I've talking to all have bigger or the same size ranch as me, have the same water heater and keep their thermostats (same programmable thermostat) set at 6-8 degrees lower than mine. In fact, the display house is a BIG 3000 sqft story and a half, with 20 foot ceilings, with the offices in the 3 car garage. The door to the garage is removed and the cooling is supplied through that doorway. They keep theirs in the mid 70s all the time and their electric bill is $300. No way should my ranch, half the size be any where near that.

I took amp readings on all my circuits just to get a base line.

Without the A/C on, but legs are pulling around 2.8-3 amps.

I've run the house without the A/C on morning and have checked my meter serveral times. Without the A/C on I am seeing an increase on the meter of about 2.5 kWh per hour still. That seems high to me for not running the A/C.
I am going to leave for a party today. I am going to shut off the water heater and A/C at the breaker box while I am gone. I am going to log a before and after and see what kind of kWh I am logging. If it's still 2 per hour, then something isn't right. That would mean I am using 1500 kWh's a month without even having hot water or air conditioning. That is WELL above the norm. In fact, my parents ranch with finished basement and vaulted ceilings use 1500 kWh per month in the dead of summer!

Check AC unit refrigerant to see if it is correctly charge.

Check HRV ventilation to see if the fresh air intake/exhaust is correctly setup, if you have one in your home.

 

[CrashX]

The A/C unit/install was subcontracted by the builder. So the company is an actual HVAC company that did the install.
My dad is actually an HVAC guy, so I had him check it out. He said the charge was a little low, and he charged it up to where it should be.
The subcontracted company came out and looked at it and showed it pulling between 11 and 13A, so a normal amount.
The wall insulation is R-13 and the ceiling is R-30. The insulation company came out and checked it and said it is all normal.

What is an HRV? Heat Recovery Ventilators? I don't think I have one of those as I have never even heard of it.

Thanks for answering my original question on computing the Watts. If I am averaging 3A on each leg at all times (lights, computers, ceiling fan, etc) and I multiply it out, that should be around .7 kWh. When I leave today and shut down my A/C and Water Heater, I should come back to no more than 1 kWh per hour increase on the meter. If it's more than that, then it just has to be the meter.

 

[drnickriviera]

Make sure someone checks all the ductwork as well. Had one new construction where they drywalled over the return air