Any knowledgable Christians here?

E equals MC2

Banned
Apr 16, 2006
2,676
1
0
I'm a Christian-turned-Agnostic pluralist. This only occured few years ago when answers started to fall short when I asked them again and again.

Well, as an 'adult' I would like to touch base with Christianity again, especially how those believers address and deal with the questions I and people around me couldn't help with.

No it's not a flamebait. I am genuinely curious & willing to share and learn. I've been a Christian for 20+ years and you'd find my knowledge quite interesting, having to offer both sides on the perspective (I taught Sunday school for HS seniors, attended too many retreats, outreach work to remote areas, etc).

If you are kind enough to provide me with such opportunity outside of these trollin' nerds ready for blind flaming and quickly coming up with lame witty replies, please PM me. What's in it for you? Well, maybe if you can genuinely satisfy my questions, I may be able to reconvert. I believe this is what you label, "a God's calling."

We can chat via Gmail, AIM, MSN or whatever is instanteous.

Thank you.

::update::
I got about five PMs and number of referals to other members. Let's see where this goes! I'm ready for anyone else willing to share and discuss their wisdom. Thanks for all your help!
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
19,582
4
81
Originally posted by: meltdown75
WTF we need another thread on this? lock & warning.

hes asking for PMs....probably should just PM the religious people who post in a relevant thread, but, meh
 

E equals MC2

Banned
Apr 16, 2006
2,676
1
0
Originally posted by: xSauronx
Originally posted by: meltdown75
WTF we need another thread on this? lock & warning.

hes asking for PMs....probably should just PM the religious people who post in a relevant thread, but, meh

That's actually a good idea. I'll scour some religion threads and PM those believers who actually post insightful things. But I want this thread to stand as well.
 

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
3
0
I wouldn't mind a conversation, I would also suggest HotChic. There are too many trolls that will flame-bait if it becomes just another thread.
 

Steve

Lifer
May 2, 2004
15,945
10
81
www.chicagopipeband.com
Gamingphreek, though probably young compared to you, is strong in his faith and may give you some good insight and/or point you in the right direction as far as finding resources for any information you seek.
 

buck

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
12,273
4
81
Are you looking to repent for your liez on these forums? We welcome this with open arms.

btw welcome back, however the forum just seemed so much nicer for the week you were gone.
 

E equals MC2

Banned
Apr 16, 2006
2,676
1
0
Originally posted by: buck
Are you looking to repent for your liez on these forums? We welcome this with open arms.

btw welcome back, however the forum just seemed so much nicer for the week you were gone.

I'm glad I was able to make your week. I didn't know my little existence on the internet meant so much for you.

You do know at this point I hope you realize the trolling from you has absolutely no impact on what I do, did and will do.

Grow up.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
13,936
3,231
146
Originally posted by: E equals MC2
I'm a Christian-turned-Agnostic pluralist. This only occured few years ago when answers started to fall short when I asked them again and again.

Well, as an 'adult' I would like to touch base with Christianity again, especially how those believers address and deal with the questions I and people around me couldn't help with.

No it's not a flamebait. I am genuinely curious & willing to share and learn. I've been a Christian for 20+ years and you'd find my knowledge quite interesting, having to offer both sides on the perspective (I taught Sunday school for HS seniors, attended too many retreats, outreach work to remote areas, etc).

If you are kind enough to provide me with such opportunity outside of these trollin' nerds ready for blind flaming and quickly coming up with lame witty replies, please PM me. What's in it for you? Well, maybe if you can genuinely satisfy my questions, I may be able to reconvert. I believe this is what you label, "a God's calling."

We can chat via Gmail, AIM, MSN or whatever is instanteous.

Thank you.

This is along the lines of when I went back to playing Star Wars Galaxies for a day just to remind myself why i quit.
 

buck

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
12,273
4
81
Originally posted by: E equals MC2
Originally posted by: buck
Are you looking to repent for your liez on these forums? We welcome this with open arms.

btw welcome back, however the forum just seemed so much nicer for the week you were gone.

I'm glad I was able to make your week. I didn't know my little existence on the internet meant so much for you.

You do know at this point I hope you realize the trolling from you has absolutely no impact on what I do, did and will do.

Grow up.

Well, like i said, welcome back, we really did miss you the week you were banned.
Hopefully talking to Christians will help with your liez.
 

E equals MC2

Banned
Apr 16, 2006
2,676
1
0
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: E equals MC2
Originally posted by: buck
Are you looking to repent for your liez on these forums? We welcome this with open arms.

btw welcome back, however the forum just seemed so much nicer for the week you were gone.

I'm glad I was able to make your week. I didn't know my little existence on the internet meant so much for you.

You do know at this point I hope you realize the trolling from you has absolutely no impact on what I do, did and will do.

Grow up.

Well, like i said, welcome back, we really did miss you the week you were banned.
Hopefully talking to Christians will help with your liez.

:heart: :beer:
 

JDub02

Diamond Member
Sep 27, 2002
6,209
1
0
OP, kudos for searching. My suggestion is to start your search by reading. Joel Osteen is a good place to start, but given your background, you might want something meatier. Try some Jack Hayford, Mac Hammond, Creflo Dollar, or Joyce Meyer.

But remember, some things just have to be taken on faith. The core belief is that a virgin gave birth to God's son, who was still God; he was crucified to pay for our sins, came back to life, floated to heaven, and he's coming back some day. Pretty crazy on the surface, yet I believe it.
 

QurazyQuisp

Platinum Member
Feb 5, 2003
2,554
0
76
Originally posted by: JDub02
OP, kudos for searching. My suggestion is to start your search by reading. Joel Osteen is a good place to start, but given your background, you might want something meatier. Try some Jack Hayford, Mac Hammond, Creflo Dollar, or Joyce Meyer.

But remember, some things just have to be taken on faith. The core belief is that a virgin gave birth to God's son, who was still God; he was crucified to pay for our sins, came back to life, floated to heaven, and he's coming back some day. Pretty crazy on the surface, yet I believe it.

Please, please, do not ever mention Joel Osteen and Christianity together. He has come out to say numerous times that the is simply giving the people what they want to hear. He doesn't believe in the fundamentals of Christianity one bit, if he did he wouldn't go out and tell everyone they are going to be wealthy and have a perfect life once they become a Christian. Christianity is not a joy ride.

John Piper (Any)
C.S. Lewis (Any)
Donald Miller (Blue Like Jazz)
Rob Bell (Velvet Elvis)
Shane Claiborne (Irresistible Revolution)
and there are many more.

And so on are wonderful authors/pastors who will really give you an idea as to the root of the religion and what it truly means to be a Christian.

That being said, I'd be more than willing to talk although I'm not sure if I'll be able to provide the best answers.

You can view the video about Joel's beliefs here... http://www.forgottenword.org/osteen.html
 

wwswimming

Banned
Jan 21, 2006
3,695
1
0
what aspect of Christianity ?

the history of the religion, details like the section in Luke
where Mary is visited by angels and told she's going to
have a special baby, the association of the pseudo-Christian
right with the Bush administration, or the part about asking
JC as your savior, thinking that you will be saved as a result
of this choice ?

there are many facets to Christianity.
 

E equals MC2

Banned
Apr 16, 2006
2,676
1
0
Originally posted by: wwswimming
what aspect of Christianity ?

the history of the religion, details like the section in Luke
where Mary is visited by angels and told she's going to
have a special baby, the association of the pseudo-Christian
right with the Bush administration, or the part about asking
JC as your savior, thinking that you will be saved as a result
of this choice ?

there are many facets to Christianity.

I don't really care for those small details. I'm questioning the very fundamentals of Christianity which no one sufficiently answered and gave me the run-around answers. And this is with genuine effort by talking to my church pastor (who holds PhD in Harvard if that means anything to you), countless nights of discussion with fellow good-willing yet knowledge-lacking Christian friends & family. That in result really turned me away:

"Isn't it bit presumptuous to say those worldly people who seem happy are really not happy deep inside because they don't know Your God? There are plenty of people I observe who ARE truly happy without believing in Your Christian God"

"You mean to tell me the hundreds of thousands who die in the world EVERYDAY that don't believe in Christ all go to hell? Why is it their fault that they weren't even given the opportunity to at least hear of Christian God? Please don't give me the [God works in mysterious ways] line."

"If Adam and Eve sinned. Why are WE paying for their sins? Who came up with such system and why does it have to be that way? Why did God had to send his one and only Son to atone for our sins (John 3:16)? That seems awfully man-made logic to me. If God is truly almighty, why is he bound to such silly & restricting tit-for-tat system?"

"Why does God have to damn those to hell? Eternal damnation... isn't that pretty harsh? For what, not loving you back? If God is truly love, which is what Christian God profeses to be, then why do the creation have to accept him back in order for us to deserve the creator's love? Can he not abolish hell? Is He helpless?"
 

uhohs

Diamond Member
Oct 29, 2005
7,660
43
91
I recommend listening to some John Piper and John MacArthur for solid Biblical teaching and not some post modern wishy washy seeker sensitive or wealth and prosperity false gospel.

And watch/listen to Paul Washer's "Shocking Message" sermon if you want to be offended (or convicted) by damning, powerful, Biblically truthful preaching.
 

Elfear

Diamond Member
May 30, 2004
7,126
738
126


I'll offer some thoughts I have on the matters you brought up and you can take it for what it's worth.

Originally posted by: E equals MC2
"Isn't it bit presumptuous to say those worldly people who seem happy are really not happy deep inside because they don't know Your God? There are plenty of people I observe who ARE truly happy without believing in Your Christian God"

Having been on both sides of the fence (agnostic for the first 19yrs of my life and now Christian) I would have to say that the difference in my happiness is readily apparent. Most of my good friends who don't actively pursue their spirituality seem less happy to me than my friends who do. I have seen this in a general sense. Speaking specifically of Christianity, your faith will come into play here. To truly find happiness and peace here on earth and in the life to come a person must be able to answer three essential questions: 1) where did I come from, 2) what is my purpose in being here, and 3) where am I going after this life. If you're Christian, then you believe that Christianity holds the answers to those questions.

That's not to say that all people who profess Christianity are happy nor that all people who aren't Christians don't have a measure of happiness in their lives. These are just the observations I have made with the people I have come into contact with.


"You mean to tell me the hundreds of thousands who die in the world EVERYDAY that don't believe in Christ all go to hell? Why is it their fault that they weren't even given the opportunity to at least hear of Christian God? Please don't give me the [God works in mysterious ways] line."

My church differs from most Christian churches in this regard. I don't believe a just God would condemn His children to hell just because of the place they were born in and the opportunities to hear the Gospel that they've had. What loving parent would do that??

I believe that people who have died without a knowledge of the Gospel will be given an opportunity to learn it in the next step after death. Missionaries will teach them and they will have the opportunity to reject or accept what they are taught.

I also don't believe in the traditional concept of hell (another place my church breaks from the others). I believe that there are different levels in the afterlife. Everyone will go to that place which they have been judged worthy of. To think that all non-Christians are doomed to suffer in fiery flames for eternity seems absurd to me.


"If Adam and Eve sinned. Why are WE paying for their sins? Who came up with such system and why does it have to be that way? Why did God had to send his one and only Son to atone for our sins (John 3:16)? That seems awfully man-made logic to me. If God is truly almighty, why is he bound to such silly & restricting tit-for-tat system?"

I guess it depends on how you think we are paying for Adam and Eve's sin. I believe that Adam and Eve made a very hard choice. They could have stayed in the Garden of Eden and lived forever but they never would have known the joys of parenthood. They needed (as well as the whole human family) needed to be given the chance to choose good or evil and determine if we would be worthy to return to God's presence. While in Eden, Adam and Eve didn't have that choice, they were innocent and would remain so until they had a chance to choose. That ability to choose right from wrong came about because of their sin and subsequent expulsion from Eden.

I am personally grateful for Adam and Eve's choice because it has given me an opportunity to prove whether I will obey or whether I will not. That choice needs to be made if want the opportunity to return to God's presence.

If you believe in justice then you must believe that there are laws we must follow and consequences when we break them. Would it be just for God to allow His children to enter into Heaven when they had transgressed His law? Because we will all do things that are wrong in life there needed to be a way to reconcile this. The only way was for God to send His perfect Son to atone for what we did. It was the only way in which the demands of justice and the demands of mercy could be satisfied.

Let me try an analogy that might better illustrate this. Suppose a man borrowed money from another man and promised to pay him. If he doesn't pay back the money he will go to prison. Suppose the first man spent the money and didn't work very hard to earn the money to pay the person back. The debt collector comes and asks for his money. The debtor admits that he cannot pay the money back and to please have mercy on him. For justice to be satisfied the debt collector must receive his money. To do otherwise would be unfair to him. The debtor, while guilty, pleads for mercy so that he doesn't have to go to prison. How can both mercy and justice be served here?

Now suppose that a friend of the debtor hears of his friend's plight and decides that he will pay his debt for him. This man has the means to satisfy both justice and mercy and does so, willing to sacrifice for his friend. This is the same may that the Savior paid for our transgressions. He was the only one capable of it because he was the Son of God and perfect.

In regards to your question about God being bound to that system, of course God is bound. God is bound to the laws of the Gospel in much the same way we are. If God tries to break those laws than God would cease to be a righteous being and God will never cease to be such.

"Why does God have to damn those to hell? Eternal damnation... isn't that pretty harsh? For what, not loving you back? If God is truly love, which is what Christian God profeses to be, then why do the creation have to accept him back in order for us to deserve the creator's love? Can he not abolish hell? Is He helpless?"

I agree that eternal damnation sounds very harsh. Like I said above, I don't believe that God would mete out an unrighteous punishment. If you believe that God is truly a loving Parent, than you must believe that He will do what is right and merciful. Will we have to pay for those things we have done wrong? Of course, that's what happens when you break the rules.

Regarding God's love, we don't need to accept Him in order for us to earn His love. He loves all of His children, even those who disobey Him in the worst ways possible. That doesn't mean there won't be consequences to our actions though. Just think of your own kids (if you have them). You still love your children even when they fill the kitchen with flour or break your new 50" TV. There will be consequences to their actions but you still love them.

Regarding God abolishing hell, it goes along with what I said above. There has to be some kind of punishment for transgression. If not there would be no law, no order, no consequences, and no righteousness. Can you imagine how the world would be if there were no consequences to our actions? No laws to obey? We would live in anarchy and chaos because people would just do whatever they pleased and the biggest and strongest would subjugate everyone else. There must be laws for us to have order and justice. God is the same way.
 

thecrecarc

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2004
3,364
3
0
Originally posted by: E equals MC2
Originally posted by: wwswimming
what aspect of Christianity ?

the history of the religion, details like the section in Luke
where Mary is visited by angels and told she's going to
have a special baby, the association of the pseudo-Christian
right with the Bush administration, or the part about asking
JC as your savior, thinking that you will be saved as a result
of this choice ?

there are many facets to Christianity.

I don't really care for those small details. I'm questioning the very fundamentals of Christianity which no one sufficiently answered and gave me the run-around answers. And this is with genuine effort by talking to my church pastor (who holds PhD in Harvard if that means anything to you), countless nights of discussion with fellow good-willing yet knowledge-lacking Christian friends & family. That in result really turned me away:

"Isn't it bit presumptuous to say those worldly people who seem happy are really not happy deep inside because they don't know Your God? There are plenty of people I observe who ARE truly happy without believing in Your Christian God"

"You mean to tell me the hundreds of thousands who die in the world EVERYDAY that don't believe in Christ all go to hell? Why is it their fault that they weren't even given the opportunity to at least hear of Christian God? Please don't give me the [God works in mysterious ways] line."

"If Adam and Eve sinned. Why are WE paying for their sins? Who came up with such system and why does it have to be that way? Why did God had to send his one and only Son to atone for our sins (John 3:16)? That seems awfully man-made logic to me. If God is truly almighty, why is he bound to such silly & restricting tit-for-tat system?"

"Why does God have to damn those to hell? Eternal damnation... isn't that pretty harsh? For what, not loving you back? If God is truly love, which is what Christian God profeses to be, then why do the creation have to accept him back in order for us to deserve the creator's love? Can he not abolish hell? Is He helpless?"

Perhaps add to that "What makes the Christian god any more valid than Buddah, Zeus, Ra, Brahman, the rain god of native american tribes, Allah, Odin, and the countless other "Gods"?

Honestly though, I have never gotten a single decent answer to this question.
 

AreaCode7O7

Senior member
Mar 6, 2005
931
1
0
Originally posted by: thecrecarc
Originally posted by: E equals MC2
Originally posted by: wwswimming
what aspect of Christianity ?

the history of the religion, details like the section in Luke
where Mary is visited by angels and told she's going to
have a special baby, the association of the pseudo-Christian
right with the Bush administration, or the part about asking
JC as your savior, thinking that you will be saved as a result
of this choice ?

there are many facets to Christianity.

I don't really care for those small details. I'm questioning the very fundamentals of Christianity which no one sufficiently answered and gave me the run-around answers. And this is with genuine effort by talking to my church pastor (who holds PhD in Harvard if that means anything to you), countless nights of discussion with fellow good-willing yet knowledge-lacking Christian friends & family. That in result really turned me away:

"Isn't it bit presumptuous to say those worldly people who seem happy are really not happy deep inside because they don't know Your God? There are plenty of people I observe who ARE truly happy without believing in Your Christian God"

"You mean to tell me the hundreds of thousands who die in the world EVERYDAY that don't believe in Christ all go to hell? Why is it their fault that they weren't even given the opportunity to at least hear of Christian God? Please don't give me the [God works in mysterious ways] line."

"If Adam and Eve sinned. Why are WE paying for their sins? Who came up with such system and why does it have to be that way? Why did God had to send his one and only Son to atone for our sins (John 3:16)? That seems awfully man-made logic to me. If God is truly almighty, why is he bound to such silly & restricting tit-for-tat system?"

"Why does God have to damn those to hell? Eternal damnation... isn't that pretty harsh? For what, not loving you back? If God is truly love, which is what Christian God profeses to be, then why do the creation have to accept him back in order for us to deserve the creator's love? Can he not abolish hell? Is He helpless?"

Perhaps add to that "What makes the Christian god any more valid than Buddah, Zeus, Ra, Brahman, the rain god of native american tribes, Allah, Odin, and the countless other "Gods"?

Honestly though, I have never gotten a single decent answer to this question.

The only possible answer to that question is, "the reality of God." That's the answer you'll get from any practitioner of any religion if you ask that question. At which point the question has to morph into "Why do you believe in god X over gods a, b and c?" The question makes more sense worded that way.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,284
1,996
126
Originally posted by: AMDZen
knowledgable Christian = oxymoron

jk

not really

Not even kidding a little. When you start asking the hard questions about where the fairy tales come from Christians react violently. When you start asking the hard questions about the full extent of the sex scandal Christians react violently. When you start asking the hard questions about the millions of people the church has murdered Christians react violently.

Christians don't want knowledge of their own and they don't want other people to have it either.
 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
91
Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Originally posted by: AMDZen
knowledgable Christian = oxymoron

jk

not really

Not even kidding a little. When you start asking the hard questions about where the fairy tales come from Christians react violently. When you start asking the hard questions about the full extent of the sex scandal Christians react violently. When you start asking the hard questions about the millions of people the church has murdered Christians react violently.

Christians don't want knowledge of their own and they don't want other people to have it either.

Err, I'm a pretty hardcore atheist, but its just ignorant to say that all Christians are stupid. I know a Physics professor who is a devout Christian and is very smart.

 
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