Any lawyers/law students in the house?

[Crusty]

Here is the deal. Before I moved into this apartment my brother lived here with a friend for 2 years. Once I graduated from HS and went to college I moved in in place of my brothers friend and lived with my brother for one year, he graduated after that. When I moved in, I was only 17 thus I didn't sign the lease, I was only listed as an occupant.

Now it is the next year after my brother moved out. When I renewed the lease all I did was sign a lease contract renewal with my new roomate. The very first paragraph states

This Lease Contract Renewal is not valid unless two conditions are satisfied: (1) the owner and residents must be exactly the same as those in the original Lease Contract, i.e. the last full lease, and (2) the year in which this Lease Contract Renewal is filled out must be no later then two years after the TAA copyright year shown at the bottom of each page of the Lease Contract. Otherwise, a completely new Lease Contract on the latest TAA Lease Contract form must be used.

Not once in the 3 years that my brother lived in the place were we billed for Water/sewage/gas, even though it was in the lease that they would bill us for it. All of the sudden starting in January they started sending me water/sewage/gas bills. I would have paid them, but the fact that the first one they sent was trying to bill me for November thru January....(check out the pics of the bills at the bottom) made me do some investigation.

Getting these bills, I started combing through my lease and renewal forms from them. I am 99% sure that our lease is invalid with them for the following reasons.
1) Neither of me and my current roomate's names are on the original lease
2) The ownership of the complex has changed since the original lease
3) We signed the current Renewal form May 21st, 2004, and my brother signed the original lease in 2001. So there is no way the copyright date can be within 2 years.

We have tried to explain this to them, but they continue to say that they will put stuff on our credit reports...mine, my brothers, and current roomates. Even though my brother is not even under contract from them anymore. I'm calling their BS and heading over to the UT Legal Services to get an official letter drafted up and sent to them through registered mail.

Basically I'm going to tell them that they can't touch my credit, and that I don't owe them anything.

Am I in the right here? What can they do to me?

Any insight?

http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/christen/Water_001.jpg
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/christen/water_002.jpg

 

[mugs]

I think water bills are usually every 3 months, not every month... that's why they sent you a bill for 3 months.

 

[Crusty]

Originally posted by: mugs
I think water bills are usually every 3 months, not every month... that's why they sent you a bill for 3 months.

I've gotten 3 bills, Nov-Jan 4th, then for the month of January, and then for February. I'm upload the scans atm, then you can look at them.

 

[mugs]

When did they start sending you the bills? In January?

 

[Crusty]

http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/christen/Water_001.jpg
http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/christen/water_002.jpg

 

[RichieZ]

well say goodbye to your security deposit

 

[Crusty]

Originally posted by: mugs
When did they start sending you the bills? In January?

Yeah, first one was in January, then February, then I just got a third one today.

But the totals don't even add up, it's like they are charging us by the size of the place... and then again for 2 people...they should either go by one or the other... not both.

 

[Crusty]

Up for help?

 

[Nuriko]

First, I'll say that I know far, far too many landlords. Secondly, most laws dealing with tenant landlord issues are a state by state basis (if not county to county or even city to city).

What are you hoping to accomplish with the letter? Be honest. If you want to get out of the water bills, fat chance, it seems that they had the ability to bill you for the water/sewage and not doing so didn't cancel the right to do so. So if they suddenly want to, well, break out the pocket book (though it would be unlikely they would be able to collect for the whole 3 years, but that's a sidenote). Nor would change of ownership of the building break the contract, as the new owners will assume all current leases in place of the former owner (it happens all the time). Though, let's stop and step back for a moment, say the contract is invalid, what happens? Most likely, depending on the local laws, you will be in a month to month lease that they can terminate with 30 days notice, or make you sign a new lease with the terms and quite possibly a higher rent charge to boot.

When the lease came up for renewal did you mention that the occuptions were changing? Did you read the contract before signing?

Oh, and they definitely can report your non payment of the water bills to the credit agencies as they have that in the contract, which is pretty decent proof of a contract for payment.

 

[lizardboy]

None of this is legal advice, just me thinking out loud.

I'm in law school at UT. I even got an A- in Property in which we barely touched on LL/tenant issues. Only thing that jumps out at me, you're off base on the copyright issue. They're referring to the copyright of the lease renewal form itself. If the form was CR 2002 or later, then it's valid (you signed it in 2004, within 2 years of CR). Looking at point one, you are probably correct that you do not have a valid lease. Texas has fairly extensive laws on LL/tenant issues that I really don't know much about. Here are my notes from the one day we spent on this:

Landlord-Tenant Law
? TX fairly similar to most states
? 4 Different forms of leases
o 1) Term of Years
? Years doesn?t mean it must be for at least two years
? Can be for any fixed period of time
? Residential ? 1 year somewhat standard
? Commercial ? longer, 3 years to 25 years
? Able to lock-in rate either fixed or keyed to market conditions
? Sometimes limited by statute as to how long they can be (more impact on commercial)
? No particular notice of termination that has to be given b/c everyone knows when it expires.
? This can by contracted, provisions can always be added. These are basically K?s. What we?re looking at are the default rules.
o 2) Periodic Tenancy
? Also for a fixed term, which is typically shorter than 1 year. Usually 1 month or 1 week. Term is understood to continue until either side gives notice to end it.
? Ex ? month-to-month lease. Unless & until 1 side gives notice, the arrangement will continue indefinitely.
? If it?s a year-to-year PT, typically have to give 6 month notice. In shorter PT, usually have to notice of the term of the period.
o What if landlord sells property?
? ToY & PT ? you can not be evicted.
? New owner takes the property subject to your lease.
? You could have contracted around this.
o What if landlord dies?
? You can?t be evicted. Death does not affect your right to live there.
o 3) Tenancy at Will
? No fixed period, not clear expiration date, lasts as long as both parties want it to.
? If either party wants out, the deal is over.
? If change in ownership/landlor dies, you can be kicked out & vice versa.
? Why would you do enter into this? Even so called TAW, you have to give notice. Was supposed to be unilateral immediate termination. Out of interest in protecting tenants, law has shifted so that TAW requires 30 days notice to evict someone.
? TAW doesn?t really exist. Has been converted into PT, just like caveat emptor has been changed by law.
? Why did people like TAW? If not sure how long they?ll be staying somewhere. Also easier to evict bad tenant. Gives landlord a way to change rental amount.
o 4) Tenancy at suffereance
? You don?t sign up for this in advance, unlike 1st 3. Can?t enter into an agreement for TAS.
? Something that arises if certain events take place
? If you are a legal tenant under #1, 2 or 3 and then you hold over after when you?re supposed to get out, you?re now a TES.
? If you start out in a legal relationship, we?re going to require that the landlord treat your better than if you were an ordinary trespasser.
? Not really a tenant since no longer have right to be there, but they?re more than just a trespasser.
? TAS, police don?t care about. You will have to pay back rent.
? Policy ? when people holdover usually b/c something bad has happened to them.
o TX Statutes (p. 48 in SOM)
? Month-to-month, have to give 1 month notice
? If rent period is less than month, just have to give notice equal to rental period
? TX is one jurisdiction where you can K for a true TAW.
? 4 broad types of disputes
o 1) Landlord sued tenant for rent that is owed
? Sometimes amount owed is disupted
o 2) condition of premises
? What is tenant?s obligation and LL obligation in terms of maintenance. Often stipulated in person
? Who is liable if there are injuries.
o 3) dispute about possession of property
? someone living there when you arrive to take possession
? maybe holdover or someone else
? who?s job is it to get rid of holdover tenant
? what amount of self-help is permitted here, can you just get rid of that person, can LL just get rid of that person
o 4) improvements to rental property
? Who gets to keep any items installed, if you painted do you have to paint it back to original color.
o Texas Provisions (p. 51 SOM)
? SubB
? Must place warning on door, tell you where to go 24/7 to get new lock & how much you owe. They have to give you the key no matter what.
? Can?t even do this unless they?ve first mailed you a warning.
? What if your LL doesn?t follow these rules?
o Sub H:
? Possession or Terminate lease
? $500 + 1 months rent + fees
? if they don?t? give you key, you get an additional 1 month?s rent

 

[Brazen]

To be certain, you'll probably need to talk to a lawyer familiar with your local and state tenant/landlord laws. Around here anyway, most lawyers will meet with you for free and let you know if you have a case or not.

My guess is, if the water fee is reasonable, you might be out of luck. We paid like $100/month I think for our utilities when we had an apartment. However, I would think though that they couldn't go back more than a month or so.

As far as threatening your credit history, I wouldn't worry to much, especially about your brothers since he's not even on the lease anymore. They can get in to BIG trouble for just going willey-nilley with bad credit reports. And if they mess with your credit history and you can prove that they were being careless with your credit history, you can sue them for any damages caused by your bad credit report.

I would think the fact that you can claim your lease is invalid due to some loopholes will not be any help to you, since you were in fact the one using the apartment. I think your best bet is going to be how far back you would be liable for when they haven't been sending you bills. I would think they couldn't just all of a sudden bill you for the previous 6 months, but they may be able to bill you for the last month or two.

Most likey they are trying to get you for more than they can legally hold you liable for. I know it is VERY common for landlords to over-threaten in hopes that you will be intimidated and just give in (which a lot of people do). Again, you just need to talk to a lawyer that specializes in tenant/landlord law in your area.

 

[AndrewR]

Even if the lease is invalid, you can still easily be held liable for reasonable payments (rent, utilities) since you ARE living there and receiving that tangible benefit. Even if the documentation is faulty, the law doesn't let people get away scot free unless there's some bad faith from the other party (fraud, threats, etc.). You might be able to leave the apartment without penalty from the lease (BIG "IF" though), but you could still be held liable for rent until they can relet the place. Or, they can probably evict you with minimal notice, but the required notice will be based on your state's Landlord/Tenant laws. I used to live in Texas, but I don't remember what the requirement is.

Not a lawyer, just went to law school and HATE landlords.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

This is the brother.

One thing to note, at the bottom of the bills, it says they are NOT from the utility company. This is because the individual apartments are not metered for gas and water. What they are doing is taking the total bill for the complex and dividing it up btw the apartments. Which, btw is also complete bs bc some apartments have 2 people, while others have 4.

In my 3 years living there, I was never served with a utility bill. What do they think they can do to my credit?

 

[Gibson486]

HardcoreRobot...MCrusty...related????

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
This is the brother.

One thing to note, at the bottom of the bills, it says they are NOT from the utility company. This is because the individual apartments are not metered for gas and water. What they are doing is taking the total bill for the complex and dividing it up btw the apartments. Which, btw is also complete bs bc some apartments have 2 people, while others have 4.

In my 3 years living there, I was never served with a utility bill. What do they think they can do to my credit?

Like I said, YOU are most definately in the clear. Your lease has expired long ago so you have no more obligations to them. If they do mess with your credit report when they clearly know you are not living there nor on the lease, they could be in big trouble.

My own experience: When my wife and I were in the process of buying a house, we found out that a small company was reporting us as being nearly a year late on paying a bill, when in fact it had been paid in full and was never even late (the check had cleared and we never recieved notice that our bill was not paid). Luckily I had undeniable proof that I paid the bill and faxed them copies and was told they would look it over. A month later, it was still not taken off my credit report so I called them back. They said they would not take it off unless I paid the bill (again!). I talked to a lawyer friend about it and he said with the undeniable proof I had, it would be an easy case to sue for the difference caused by a higher interest rate on the house and possibly for a car loan we had previously gotten and other damages. I called the company up and basically threatened them with this info; an hour later I had a fax of the signed document form they sent to the credit agencies.

 

[Brazen]

Keep in mind, Landlords are notoriously greedy and unethical - not all, but most are. My first landlord was a saint, two evil landlords since then have swayed my general opinion. And I'm what most would consider a model tenant - I've never been late on payments, I've never broken anything, and the three places we've rented I've always tried to make improvements and leave the place better and cleaner than when we came (largely due to the generousity of our fist landlord), but the last too still found reasons to keep almost all of our deposit.

My advice: take your lease home and review it thoroughly before you sign it, never expect a landlord not to carry through on a lease provision that puts more money in their hands, and take dated pictures of EVERYTHING before you move in and when you move out.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
This is the brother.

One thing to note, at the bottom of the bills, it says they are NOT from the utility company. This is because the individual apartments are not metered for gas and water. What they are doing is taking the total bill for the complex and dividing it up btw the apartments. Which, btw is also complete bs bc some apartments have 2 people, while others have 4.

In my 3 years living there, I was never served with a utility bill. What do they think they can do to my credit?

Like I said, YOU are most definately in the clear. Your lease has expired long ago so you have no more obligations to them. If they do mess with your credit report when they clearly know you are not living there nor on the lease, they could be in big trouble.

My own experience: When my wife and I were in the process of buying a house, we found out that a small company was reporting us as being nearly a year late on paying a bill, when in fact it had been paid in full and was never even late (the check had cleared and we never recieved notice that our bill was not paid). Luckily I had undeniable proof that I paid the bill and faxed them copies and was told they would look it over. A month later, it was still not taken off my credit report so I called them back. They said they would not take it off unless I paid the bill (again!). I talked to a lawyer friend about it and he said with the undeniable proof I had, it would be an easy case to sue for the difference caused by a higher interest rate on the house and possibly for a car loan we had previously gotten and other damages. I called the company up and basically threatened them with this info; an hour later I had a fax of the signed document form they sent to the credit agencies.

I think the reason they are dragging me into it is because my brother did not get a new lease... he renewed the one that I had from the previous year. I do not think I am still on it however, because my MCrusty and his roommate both signed.

 

[ggnl]

I don't understand what you are trying to do. Are you trying to get out of your lease and move out of the complex, or do you just not want to pay the utilities bills?

You would probably have a good chance at the former, since you could just invalidate the whole contract. But if you want continue living there, I don't see how it would be possible to do so with a supposedly invalid lease agreement. If you are not bound by the terms of the contract then they aren't either, meaning they are not obligated to keep a roof over your head.

 

[Brazen]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot

Originally posted by: Brazen

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
This is the brother.

One thing to note, at the bottom of the bills, it says they are NOT from the utility company. This is because the individual apartments are not metered for gas and water. What they are doing is taking the total bill for the complex and dividing it up btw the apartments. Which, btw is also complete bs bc some apartments have 2 people, while others have 4.

In my 3 years living there, I was never served with a utility bill. What do they think they can do to my credit?

Like I said, YOU are most definately in the clear. Your lease has expired long ago so you have no more obligations to them. If they do mess with your credit report when they clearly know you are not living there nor on the lease, they could be in big trouble.

My own experience: When my wife and I were in the process of buying a house, we found out that a small company was reporting us as being nearly a year late on paying a bill, when in fact it had been paid in full and was never even late (the check had cleared and we never recieved notice that our bill was not paid). Luckily I had undeniable proof that I paid the bill and faxed them copies and was told they would look it over. A month later, it was still not taken off my credit report so I called them back. They said they would not take it off unless I paid the bill (again!). I talked to a lawyer friend about it and he said with the undeniable proof I had, it would be an easy case to sue for the difference caused by a higher interest rate on the house and possibly for a car loan we had previously gotten and other damages. I called the company up and basically threatened them with this info; an hour later I had a fax of the signed document form they sent to the credit agencies.

I think the reason they are dragging me into it is because my brother did not get a new lease... he renewed the one that I had from the previous year. I do not think I am still on it however, because my MCrusty and his roommate both signed.

I think they are dragging you in to it to intimidate your MCrusty. I would say, you didn't sign the renewal, so you are no longer under any obligation. However, I'm in Kansas and Kansas legislation tends to be more pro-consumer rights than other states, and tenant/landlord laws are unique to each state and somewhat unique to each county and city even.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: MCrusty




Not once in the 3 years that my brother lived in the place were we billed for Water/sewage/gas, even though it was in the lease that they would bill us for it. All of the sudden starting in January they started sending me water/sewage/gas bills. I would have paid them, but the fact that the first one they sent was trying to bill me for November thru January....(check out the pics of the bills at the bottom) made me do some investigation.

Didnt read the whole thing, but not receiving a bill does not mean you don't have to pay.

 

[Brazen]

I would be interested to know how things turn out. Updates?