Any new non helium 8TB drives shipping soon

[boed]

I plan on building a new server in October. The new ST8000AS0002 drives are too slow for large file transfers and I plan on transferring several TB on a regular basis. I heard they were developing a 7200 RPM model that might not be as bad.

The system I'll be rebuilding has 12 drive bays. I need at least 70TB of useable space. I'll probably go at least raid 5 or 5.1/6. I'll be using an LSI controller most likely (if the new one is released in time otherwise the adaptec).

I don't really trust helium for long term storage as helium is very tough to contain.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

I plan on building a new server in October. The new ST8000AS0002 drives are too slow for large file transfers and I plan on transferring several TB on a regular basis. I heard they were developing a 7200 RPM model that might not be as bad.

The system I'll be rebuilding has 12 drive bays. I need at least 70TB of useable space. I'll probably go at least raid 5 or 5.1/6. I'll be using an LSI controller most likely (if the new one is released in time otherwise the adaptec).

I don't really trust helium for long term storage as helium is very tough to contain.

It's not the helium that makes them slow, it's the shingled recording.

How regular a basis? Their rated workload is "only" 180TB/year, which sounds like a lot, but given the amounts of data I deal with at work, that's very much in "WORM" territory. The 3-year warranty is about what you'll find anywhere else though.

Your best TB/$ is still going to be with 3-4TB hard drives; I'd spec your re-enclosure assuming that, and then use the 8TBs as backup drives. (You do back up your stuff, right? RIGHT?)

 

[boed]

The Seagate ST8000AS0002 does not use helium so I sure hope that isn't what makes it slow! What I'm asking is are there any new alternatives to the ST8000AS0002 that don't use helium but have a capacity of 8TB or more. So to be clear, I do not want a Seagate ST8000AS0002 as it is too slow - nor do I want any helium based solutions as I am concerned about their longevity so I'm asking is there something else coming out SOON that fills that niche. The new 48 layer SSD tech that holds much promise is at least 2 years away and I cannot wait that long.

I transfer about 1TB per day. I do backup on a regular basis. Just transferring my existing data to a ST8000AS0002 would take at least a week. Transferring between my all of my 40TB to another array with the 6TB drives only takes 1 day.

I do not have the physical space for 3-4TB drives. I'm currently using 6TB drives which are fast but can't hold enough data. A larger enclosure is not an option.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Then I think you're kinda stuck. Every 8TB+ drive I've seen an announcement for is using SMR, which means low speed.

Avoiding SMR for speed and Helium for longevity puts you at 6TB per drive, maximum. The higher-capacity stuff, like, JUST came out. So it'll probably be a while before the next jump upwards.

Have you considered using dedup or compression?

 

[boed]

Then I think you're kinda stuck. Every 8TB+ drive I've seen an announcement for is using SMR, which means low speed.

Avoiding SMR for speed and Helium for longevity puts you at 6TB per drive, maximum. The higher-capacity stuff, like, JUST came out. So it'll probably be a while before the next jump upwards.

Have you considered using dedup or compression?

Thanks - since the bulk of that storage is TV shows and movies, dedup won't help. When I get a player that supports x265 I might save some space but the quality and definition for x265 have not really come through yet. Movies don't compress much with RAR and it would make them inaccessible until I unrar them so that won't be an option either.

There are rumors that a 7200RPM Seagate drive is in the works - we'll have to wait to see if that has any other speed improvements.

 

[bradley]

Increasing the areal density on current shingled drive tech seems to have hit a point of diminishing returns beyond 1.2TB. The 1.33TB platters of the Seagate ST8000AS0002 are especially slow on rewrites.

In fact, Seagate's suggested use for their 8TB drives are similar to large tape drive storage with minimal writes. And there's nothing new on the horizon, except even larger drives with 1.33TB SMR platters

I'd personally stay away from drives with 4-6 SMR platters running beyond 5900RPM. The slight speed increase isn't worth the tradeoff of additional: noise, friction, heat and increased potential for data loss, hence the need for helium... which is extremely expensive. Perhaps stick with your 6TB drives, which I assume contain (5x1.2TB platters) figure out how to make it work. 1.2TB plattered drives seem to be the sweet spot atm.

 

[boed]

It is a costly dilemma for me. I could probably expand my 40TB array to 60TB but that will require a large purchase ($4500) until 3d NAND becomes affordable. Hopefully I won't have filled my array in that time.

 

[bradley]

It is a costly dilemma for me. I could probably expand my 40TB array to 60TB but that will require a large purchase ($4500) until 3d NAND becomes affordable. Hopefully I won't have filled my array in that time.

Samsung's 3D NAND is sort of affordable now. Intel/Micron's 3D NAND collaboration will make it even more affordable. But those drives likely won't be available for sale till Q4 2015 at the earliest.

Samsung employs 128Gbit in their TLC 850 EVO and 64Gbit in their MLC 850 PRO, while Intel/Micron claims to use floating gates tech to fit 256Gbit on TLC dies and 128Gbit on MLC. They will also have much better wear dynamics and endurance equal to older thicker chips.

Right now Samsung is starting to dump their 3D NAND drive reserves in anticipation. Micron even has stated they will use disruptive pricing, a win-win for us consumers. Otherwise we still know very little details.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I await the Crucial SSDs with Intel / Micron TLC 3D NAND, hopefully they will reach my 256GB for $60 by BF 2015 prediction.

 

[bradley]

For almost two weeks, Amazon.com had the Samsung 850 EVO 250GB priced at $90-95 (the 850 PRO 250GB at $110) before shooting back. So this is a very good possibility. In fact, I think we will also see a Samsung 850 EVO 500GB for $99 after rebate on Black Friday. I have no problem waiting a little while longer.

 

[boed]

Somehow I doubt that 70-80TB of 3d nand will be affordable (under $10,000) within the next year or so. My guess is that is about 3 years away before the 10TB in the $2,000 range. My guess is the 32TB will be more like $5,000 each. I hope I'm completely wrong and they go for $200 and $500 within 3 years.

 

[boed]

I may end up getting the He8 after all - if the price drops by 20% by October. The price per GB on the HE8 SAS is significantly more than the 6TB Seagate SAS drive.

 

[cbn]

Increasing the areal density on current shingled drive tech seems to have hit a point of diminishing returns beyond 1.2TB. The 1.33TB platters of the Seagate ST8000AS0002 are especially slow on rewrites.

In fact, Seagate's suggested use for their 8TB drives are similar to large tape drive storage with minimal writes. And there's nothing new on the horizon, except even larger drives with 1.33TB SMR platters

I'd personally stay away from drives with 4-6 SMR platters running beyond 5900RPM. The slight speed increase isn't worth the tradeoff of additional: noise, friction, heat and increased potential for data loss, hence the need for helium... which is extremely expensive. Perhaps stick with your 6TB drives, which I assume contain (5x1.2TB platters) figure out how to make it work. 1.2TB plattered drives seem to be the sweet spot atm.

Maybe we eventually see WD, Seagate or Toshiba move back to 5.25" Hard drives. This rather than having a greater number of 3.5" platters with helium to reduce friction?

Or maybe with data being proportionally more archival in nature such a move is delayed for quite some time?

 

[greenhawk]

Maybe we eventually see WD, Seagate or Toshiba move back to 5.25" Hard drives.

This rather than having a greater number of 3.5" platters with helium to reduce friction?

The first is not likely to happen as one of the reasons they went away from them was the inability to get a stable platter near the edge, which effects how close the head can be and so how dense the information can be packed. The extra area is nice, but you would need a lot more anyway to compensate for the unstableness.

I expect there to be double height drives before they look at going 5.25" again.

As to the He thing, it is more than friction that Helium is used for, it is too allow a closer hovering distance from the media, so tracks can be written closer together.

 

[AlienTech]

I expect there to be double height drives before they look at going 5.25" again.

As to the He thing, it is more than friction that Helium is used for, it is too allow a closer hovering distance from the media, so tracks can be written closer together.

I used to have a couple of those double height 3.5 drives.. One was miniscribe I think, forgot the other one. They are not quite double the height. I see the new 6 platter drives are made to fit the standard height by getting rid the ridges on the bottom and making the circuit board smaller to fit around the round platter indentations. Considering how hot 5 platter 7200 rpm drives get now, I think 6 is about how far they can go. I think they would need new lighter materials to go more platters. The heat generated by the drive would need a fan to be used anywhere. I had a seagate 5 platter 1.5tb drive that used to hit 70C or higher.. Even made the black paint lighter after a few years, maybe why they started using 5900 rpm drives now. An identical 1TB drive using 3 platters never exceeded 40C so those 2 extra platters made a HUGE difference in the heat and power requirements.